Video Transcript:

GLORIA PENNER (Host): In the mid-1970s, there were 20,000 offenders in California prisons. Today, there are 168,000 inmates. All week, KPBS radio has been focusing on California's prisons and why they're so over-crowded. One of the reasons for the increase is the state's three strikes law passed 15 years ago.The law forces many inmates to stay in prison for decades, sometimes for life. We wanted to know if it's time to revise California's sentencing laws. Here's former San Diego District Attorney Paul Pfingst on the record

PAUL PFINGST (Attorney, former San Diego District Attorney): I think the public has had an opportunity to examine the three strikes law. I think the law has contributed to a reduction in crime, but it is still too broad. As a result, we are seeing prison populations, which are extremely high - too high - that are costing the state enormous amounts of money. And I don't have an objection to paying money if its working to the benefit of the state and public safety, but as criminals get to their fifties, sixties, and even in their forties, statistics show us they tend not to be the threat they were in their teens and twenties and thirties. What the law is doing now is incarcerating people beyond the time that they pose a real threat at quite a high cost, and I think that money could be better directed inside the criminal justice system to give us more bang for the buck, and for crime reduction.

We have seen in Sacramento that there has been a failure of leadership on so many issues and criminal justice is certainly going to be one of those issues as well. As a practical reality, elected representatives are afraid to reduce a single criminal sentence for fear there will be a 30 second attack ad that will kick them out of their job. So they want to pass the buck to somebody else. Right now the buck is being passed to federal judges who say you have to reduce your prison population. In my judgment, the only people who can change sentencing for the better in the state of California is going to be the voters, because I don't think the legislature has the stomach to do it. 

PENNER:  So he still sounds like the district attorney, doesn't he? What do you think about his ideas?

DAVID ROLLAND (San Diego CityBeat): Actually, he doesn't sound like a district attorney to me, I mean it's amazing as I watch that how smart somebody can sound when they're not a politician anymore.  He's absolutely right.  Everything he said is absolutely right.  There is no intelligence in our criminal justice system right now.  It's emotional, every response we come up with is emotional.  "Let's lock these people up because they're bad."

PENNER:  So, JW, when you think about this, I mean what about this issue of sending people to prison for life for stealing a piece of pizza or other non violent crimes because it's the third strike, is that the main problem here?

JW AUGUST (10News): No, there's multiple problems.  That accellerated the problem but I think the problems began with the drug wars. The Nixon war on drugs, which added a great deal of people into the mix for these prisons, this three strikes law accelerated it, and then the confusion over sentencing guidelines, you can go to one courtroom and get one sentence for a crime, you go to another courtroom you get another sentence for a crime, all of that driven by the fact that this is a big industry.  It's a billion dollar industry.  We can't afford this industry anymore, but it's a big industry.

PENNER: But Paul Pfingst says that state lawmakers don't have the stomach to make the tough decisions.  How concerned are our politicians about being considered soft on crime?

JW AUGUST (Managing Editor, KGTV 10News):  Well, you know as he said in the 30-second sound byte, you're running in your campaign and you're soft on crime and that always seems to work, but we should mention that the prisoners, the correctional union for the police officers that work in the institutions is a very very powerful union, and one of the driving forces behind the building of the prisons, tough on crime laws, and they're the ones that will probably spend the money to back anybody they view as anti-crime.

PENNER: But those prison guards are saying it's a matter of public safety, to keep those prisoners, I mean..

DAVID ROLLAND (Editor, San Diego City Beat): No, for them it's a matter of jobs.  They want the jobs.  They want the prison jobs.  And the way you keep raising the amount of prison jobs is to increase the amount of people in prison.  JW is right, they have been very, historically, very powerful.  They're not as powerful as they were over the last 20 years or so, a guy named Don Novey used to be head of that union and he could make or break careers like that.  With a drop of his famous fedora hat that he used to wear.

AUGUST:  Well they can make or break legislation now though, they still can.  We tried to get, journalist organizations tried to get access into prisons and they were able to kill that.  Governor  Schwarzenegger had the bill on his desk and he did not sign it.  We know that the prison guards had let him know that "no, you don't sign that legislation."

PENNER:  But our current DA, Bonnie Dumanis, she told us on our These Days program that 95% of people in prison will be released.  So whey aren't we more focused on rehabilitation?  I mean if they're in prison, why not rehabilitate them?

AUGUST:  That budget, which is as big as the education budget for the prisons, biggest money we spent for education in the state, 70% of that goes to salaries and (benefits) for these people, 5% goes to vocational programs.  Five percent of that budget.  Now that's a master plan for disaster.  That's what needs to be addressed.  

PENNER:  Then, when it really comes down to it, how engaged are the voters in all this? We've talked about the prison guards, we've talked about the politicians, what about the voters?  What are the chances that California voters might overturn the three strikes law?

ROLLAND:  I don't think there's much of a chance because the process always gets overtaken by emotion, and there's always somebody waiting in the wings, you can have a politician who is running for office or whatever or you can have a campaign for smarter criminal justice laws, but there's always somebody waiting in the wings to call you soft on crime, and to say that dangerous murderers and rapists are going to be roaming the streets, you know, looking to kill your family.  It's always going to happen so I don't hold up much hope for that but what's going to happen is that the federal court system is going to have to take over.  They're going to take control of our prison system, and they are going to let people out if we don't do it ourselves.

PENNER:  Thank you very much David Rolland, JW August.