MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: Our top story on Midday Edition, the situation in Iraq both in the North and the capital Baghdad has been changing daily. American airstrikes have allowed Kurdish troops to help thousands of stranded Yaziti people from their mountain refuge to relative safety. The Kurds have also recaptured two towns from the Islamic state mountains. In Baghdad, a new prime minister has been named the old one is refusing to step down, and there are fears of a military coup. I guess I've been keeping a close eye on the situation in Iraq. Would like to welcome Mark Arabo. He is a San Diego businessman, a member of the Chaldean community, and spokesman for Iraqi Christians. Welcome to the program. Bahar Davary is Associate Professor of Theology and Religious Studies at University of San Diego. Welcome. And Ric Epps is a political science professor at San Diego State University. Welcome back. Mark, give me your reaction to the latest news that Kurdish troops helped by US airstrikes are pushing back the advancing ISIS militants. MARK ARABO: We now know that Christians are still being massacred, a lot of them are not getting humanitarian aid. The Kurdish have been helpful after the strikes, but this still remains a living hell for the Christian community in Iraq, and after Prime Minister Maliki's speech yesterday basically saying that the Iraqi president committed treason, what we see now is the disintegration of Iraq. Potentially, Iraq faces a three state split, Kurds in the north, Maliki in the South, and ISIS in the middle. It will be years before we see the conclusion of this saga. This is an issue that should be on the forefront of America's mind when choosing our next president. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: You met with officials in Washington about the plight of Iraqi Christians and other religious minorities in Iraq. What kind of response have you gotten? MARK ARABO: Last time I spoke to the State Department and the morning we had another call with the State Department. We sounded the alarm eight weeks ago at KPBS. We have been calling the Christian genocide ever since, and now it is truly full-blown genocide. It is crimes against humanity, and it is really the most dire situation you can think of. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: Do we have any sort of numbers about how many people might have been displaced or killed in this uprising? I'm speaking specifically about Iraqi Christians. MARK ARABO: The number we have is about 350,000 displaced, and thousands killed. The most brutal crimes you can think of. Beheadings, hangings, slaughtering, they want to destroy every Christian in the region, and they are trying to wipe out the oldest Christians in history. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: In an op-ed piece in San Diego, you say the Chaldeans are being persecuted because they say the our father and Hail Mary, is it really is simple as that? MARK ARABO: It really is. This is a full-blown Christian genocide. They have bombed forty-nine of our churches. They have marks our Christian homes with the letter N as in Nazarene. And they have told us, if you come home you will be slaughtered. They are systematically eradicating Christianity from the Middle East. It is truly a living nightmare, and we have been calling for a massive evacuation. I'm going to go to the United Nations this Wednesday and Thursday to make sure that the UN recognizes this. These are stateless people, this is crimes against humanity, and that this genocide. Under the Geneva Convention it will force them to find a home for them. We want the world to follow France's lead. France is the only country in the world offering asylum. Let's airlift those Christians out of there, let's get them humanitarian aid right away, and then let's get rid of ISIS, and then reworked the Maliki government. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: Bahar, you tend to disagree that the Islamic state of persecution is based solely on religion. BAHAR DAVARY: Let me begin with the historical data. The region is highly diverse, both ethnically and religiously. There are Syrians who are Chaldeans, Chaldean Christians, Yaziti that are Kurds, the majority of Kurds that are Sunni, there are other sects that live as well. What ISIS hates more than all of them is the Shia. That is half of the population. I agree with Mark, yes, let's send aid for everyone. Let's rid people of ISIS, which is basically gangs and thugs. That is why I call it a so-called Islamic state, because I don't believe that they do believe in Islam. Nothing they say is Islamic, and if you want I can explain the idea of conversion, leaving or being put to death. Mark mentioned the letter N for Nazarene, there is the letter R which does not have the option of converting. R is for Rafida, which is Shia. If you're Shia, you have to be put to death according to them, which has no place within the Sharia law. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: You have made the point that people in this diverse ethnic region and with a lot of religious diversity as well, they lived in relative peace for some time. Is that why you don't see this as primarily religious persecution? BAHAR DAVARY: Absolutely. The Chaldean church has existed in Iraq, in which was Mesopotamia for 2000 years. The monastery of Virgin Mary existed there for centuries. There have been over 200 parishes and churches in the region alone in Iraq. The archbishop would hire Muslim artists who come and pick images of Mary and Jesus in the cathedral, and the people have very amicable relationships. Yazitis have lived there since the twelfth century. There are Kurds who believe differently than the Sunni majority. They lived there in harmony and the churches were safe. It is only after 2003 at the bombing of churches and monasteries began, unfortunately in a state there is no security for anyone. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: Ric, can you see US intervention keeping Iraqi minority safe? RIC EPPS: That is a comic it a question. I think the president of the dangerous step when he said that he would not put with on the ground. I certainly think it should not just be the United States putting the boots on the ground if it comes to this. I have a feeling that is probably going to escalate, even though they have made some gains, and certainly the Kurds have with the help of the US air strikes been able to insulate themselves well enough to be able to allow for some humanitarian action. However, this thread is on the rise. It is not a managing, even though we are bombing, they are not winning hearts and minds, because these types of groups are thugs, they are highly decentralized. The danger in groups like this is not because they have leaders, it's because they do not have leaders. People do not join them because they believe in them, they join them because they give them money. There is not a long protracted view that I have to join ISIS because I believe in their cause. In this particular situation the join out of fear. United States involvement in this I think is going to happen. I think it is going to escalate, I think we will not have a choice. I hate saying that, I'm unhappy to say that, but I think that the danger that this group presents regionally, and what would happen if Iraq breaks into separate states, which I predicted ten years ago is going to happen with the Civil War, and now it's coming to the fruition. The danger of having an Islamic state based on non-Koranic teaching, acting in an aggressive manner, with money to buy weapons of mass destruction, and then be able to have a challenge to Iran, which Iran does not want to see a radical group like that come to power, especially knowing that they want to annihilate Shia. You're talking about a regional Civil War that can spin quickly out of control if we do not take action. If you look at the region across the board, Syria and Libya are a mess. Egypt is still in dishevelment. You have Palestinians in Israel. There are so many things going on, if we don't get this stabilized, we will see a complete collapse of that region. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: We have heard, as we have been mentioning, that their been Kurdish troops that have been fighting and apparently have been reenergized by some US airstrikes to take back territory from ISIS. Where is the Iraqi army? RIC EPPS: That's a problem, right now because of the political vacuum that is taking place with President Massam nominating the new prime minister, and now the blowback from Maliki pushing back because he does not want to leave, this is creating a greater political vacuum. Right now he has told most of the tubes around Baghdad to try them for a potential military coup. Certainly the internal part of Baghdad is falling apart. That allows for ISIS and groups to take on greater traction because of that, so that will require the US or other involvement, with UN or the help of UN, I think it should be a groundswell movement across the board of not just United States but at the UN, Europe, China, Russia, everyone needs to stop this organization before esters any further. Our inaction will create a greater chance of terrorism not just in the region, but also in the West as well. That is something that we do not need to see. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: Marks, you just outlined for us a grim scenario where there is virtually no hope for in Iraqi government to reconfigure and become a broad-based coalition that we all heard about for years. Embracing different ethnic communities and religious communities in a big government in Baghdad, you're saying that you do not see any chance for this now? MARK ARABO: In 2003 there were 1.4 million Christians, now there are 400,000. A million have left in Syria, Jordan, America, Lebanon and so forth. We know that the remaining 400,000 have no safe haven, no militia, no security, no representation in government. This is a global humanitarian crISIS. It is a genocide because of two things, targeted displacement and targeted killing. We defined for these 400,000 people. And we need to get rid of ISIS, and then we can rework the government. You can't we work of the government when you have a minority suffering and dying because they don't have water, food, or clothing. You can't get rid of the government advice is still there. In 2005 when Baghdadi was in our custody, we released him for a prisoner exchange. He said I will see you back in New York. They have made it very clear, and they just change their name from ISIS to IS Islamic state. They are marching to Lebanon. They know no boundaries, and we need to have a strong foreign policy because that is the number one threat to our national security without strong foreign policy. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: What about other Muslim religious leaders in the Muslim world? Have they been speaking out against this Islamic state of militant thugs as you call them? BAHAR DAVARY: I don't think there is a decent Muslim leader anywhere around the world that will support ISIS as an Islamic state. That, one of the verses of the Koran they are misusing thing that you need to either convert or be killed, that is an issue that is debated among Muslim scholars about whether Christians and Jews living under the protection of the rule have to pay the poll tax or not. That is a whole issue of understanding citizenship, how do we understand by terms such as a or alien, or undocumented people? That is the issue worldwide, not just a Muslim issue. Of course, in the early Islamic years 1400 years ago, this issue is discussed as if they are Jews and Christians under Muslim rule, they pay this tax in exchange for protection. Interestingly, we cut and paste scripture reading. If you return to another verse in the Koran, Koran 22:40, you'll read about protection of churches, synagogues, and mosques, because the name of God is repeated there. All readers of the Koran are encouraged and obligated to protect mosques, churches, and synagogues. They have existed in the beginning, so why is it that this so-called some state is doing it in the name of religion? MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: There are other places in the world suffering incredible ethnic and political violence, and America is not intervening with airstrikes or anything else. What is our interest in the stability of Iraq? Is it moral, or strategic? RIC EPPS: It is partially geostrategic. It is also an economic issue. Let's face it, the oil in Iraq has since served that the United States, but Europe for decades. The economic blowback is probably driving them much more than the moral issue, unfortunately. The moral issue from my side is the military issue, that's more important here. I think one of these things with you with these Islamic militant groups, it is moving in the Koran. I took my Islamic studies course at UCLA, and I remembered sitting across from Jews, Christians and Muslims. It is interesting to hear the interpretation. People would say why are people acting this way when it says this? Just like in the Bible, people will take the holy book and interpreted in ways that allow them to hate, kill, or just by actions, that is what we see happening in the Koran. It is unfortunate, because Americans have a tendency to dismiss Muslims or dismiss the Koran as teaching horrific acts, but it is not. In terms of the United States getting involved, we cannot afford to let the geostrategic position, and we cannot afford for the Middle East the class on itself. If the Middle East did not have any oil, I don't think we would care. I think the terrorist aspect is driving us, as it well should. You're talking about an organization, if they get their hands on the oil, could be every bit as deadly as Osama Bin Laden was with money that he had. This imperative, for us to be involved. Whether Americans like that or not, that is the hard reality. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: Thank you all very much.
The situation in Iraq, both in the northern region and in the capital of Baghdad, has been changing daily.
American airstrikes have allowed Kurdish troops to help thousands of stranded Yazidi people from their mountain refuge to relative safety. Kurdish forces have also recaptured two towns from Islamic State militants.
In Baghdad, a new prime minister has been named, but the previous prime minister is refusing to step down — and there are fears of a military coup.
"For our community, it’s been a compete nightmare — and it went from a living nightmare to a living hell," Mark Arabo said, a San Diego resident and spokesman for the Iraqi Christian community.
Arabo told KPBS Evening Edition he has heard from hundreds of Chaldeans living in San Diego about losing all contact — or worse — with relatives in Iraq.
"Some of them have told us they’ve already been slaughtered or killed," Arabo said. "This is a full-blown genocide.”
University of San Diego associate professor of theology and religious studies Bahar Davary told Evening Edition although many people might believe U.S. military intervention can stop the current crisis, she noted it's also partially to blame for the current crisis.
“If we can learn from the recent history, we know that the bombing of Afghanistan — where food and bombs were dropped together — were not helpful and this is what’s happening right now in Iraq," Davary said. "If the region is not stabilized — and that doesn’t happen with bombing, that doesn’t happen with arming this group or that group — it takes much more humanitarian aid than weapons."
