MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: This is KPBS Midday Edition, I'm Maureen Cavanaugh. Military personnel and veterans in San Diego have been expressing sadness and anger over recent news from Iraq. The city of Fallujahh, where 10 years ago US military contractors were murdered by insurgents and US Marines fought house to house battles to win back the city, has apparently been taken over by Al Qaeda forces. In 2004 about 100 US troops died in those battles and about 1000 were wounded in major fighting. What's happening in Fallujah is just a sample of the sectarian and political violence sweeping Iraq. Last year the body count of Iraqis was higher since 2007. Joining me to discuss the situation in Iraq and the reaction from veterans are my guests, Nic Popaditch US Marine gunnery Sgt. Retired fought and was wounded in Fallujah and Nic welcome back to the program. NIC POPADITCH: Thanks for having me back. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: And Mounah Abdel Samad is assistant professor of public administration and policy and director of the Institute of Public and urban affairs at San Diego State University. It's so good to see you again, Mounah. Thank you for being here. MOUNAH ABDEL SAMAD: Thank you. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: Nic, you've been on the show before. People may remember you ran for Congress several years ago. You've talked about your pride in serving in Iraq. What is your reaction to this latest news? NIC POPADITCH: Well obviously disappointed that the freedom that was fought for so hard there did not last. And that's how it felt to me, you know as a military guy you recognize things there you can control and you cannot. When we were there was probably part of the nation the [inaudible] freedom, human rights, for liberty for these people because they were down on the ground fighting for their freedom, for a shot at what we have here. I was proud to stand beside them and alongside them for that ideal. So it was a great thing happening there on the ground and I guess as a career military guy I recognize there's things you can control and thing you can't. We have to leave and what happens after you leave is something you can't control it. If you can't recognize that you can't last long the military. I have a peaceful acceptance of it, but obviously wish it went the other way and would've lasted. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: You were involved in the fighting in Fallujah not long after the American saw images of the burned body of US contractors hanging from a bridge in that city. I think anyone who saw that will always remember. Remind us all of the emotions of that time. NIC POPADITCH: At that time there was some optimism there. There were Iraqi people standing up. Oone day in the city of Fallujah I met the mayor of Fallujah, this new experiment in democracy going on there and he wanted to speak to my chain of command and they were on the way and the Mayor looked at me and told me and said if they take much longer somebody's going to kill me here on the street. I was amazed at just the courage, the faith that my country that we were going to stand beside him and I was so proud to be part of that. So there was optimism there. People were fighting. The Iraqi people were standing up fighting and dying and for them it was probably going to be for freedom that many of them would never live to see. And for our nation to have the courage the belief in that ideal and stand beside them, I was proud. When I was 18 years old and joined the Marine Corps if you told me back then you're going to be halfway around the world fighting for the freedom of others I said sign me up that's what I want to do with my life. So I was very honored and privileged to have been given the opportunity. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: Some called the Battle of Fallujah a turning point in the effort in Iraq. Do you agree with that Nic? NIC POPADITCH: Absolutely because of they tried to fight us openly in the street. That's something we do very good and it kind of played into a restricted things. Bad for the enemy in [inaudible] of solution I think after that that's what they realize fighting the Americans that the openness probably not a good policy for them. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: Now, Mounah, ever since US troops have withdrawn from Iraq I think Americans haven't been taking a great deal of attention to what's been going on there. So has the violence been increasing? MOUNAH ABDEL SAMAD: What we have seen is continuous violence. We see all these car bombs that take place in Iraq and we've seen waves of these car bombs. And this is not new. This is continuous that has been taking place in Iraq but the interesting thing that is taking place is the Anbar province. It seems people are surprised about that Al Qaeda is coming back. Which in a way is logical for them to, because the ground is very fertile for them to come back. If we think about 2003 when we took over in Iraq and we continued debaathification the [inaudible] of the military, all of these people that were in the military basically went back to their hometowns and a lot of them were from the Anbar province. So they had no more connection with the state and lost a lot of privileges they used to have from the state. Add to that the 2010 election came and now these people that were there that supposedly won the election it was a coalition between Shia and Sunni, and so basically they came under what they called the Iraqi block with Alawe, the previous prime minister, they want the biggest bloc in parliament and they were supposed to form a government, but that with some intervention by the Supreme Court, Prime Minister Maliki was able to basically form a government. And then you have the feeling that they have lost again. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: And so these attackers in Fallujah have been characterized as Al Qaeda. Is it your sense that these fighters are really terrorists, or are they frustrated Sunnis? MOUNAH ABDEL SAMAD: I think Al Qaeda are terrorists that are operating there but they are operating because they have a fertile ground that existed. So basically they would be able to invade Fallujah and control it if they did, if the people that were there were not okay with it because they had felt that the government is working against them. So now what you see is a more complex issue of having these tribes fighting Al Qaeda because they don't want them to come into these cities and at the same time that allowed the government to come into the cities. So this area of empire has been under total control by the government. Now that you have the tribal leaders say okay if Al Qaeda comes and takes control there's a problem because our whole social structure will be destroyed because these are foreign fighters coming. But it's also to present an excuse for the federal government to, and control the cities which we don't want because they don't trust the federal government because they don't include us in any of the political process. So now you have a combination of elements pulling at the same time. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: I want to go to the phone line right now. Mike Judd is there. He's a retired U.S. Army Sgt. He fought in the city of Ramadhi in the Anbar province and now he's case manager and outreach specialist with veterans Village of San Diego and Mike welcome to the program. MIKE JUDD: Thanks for having me, Maureen. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: You work with veterans. What are you hearing from them about the recent events in Iraq? MIKE JUDD: A lot of them are at doing that me statements the disappointment, the anger, quite a handful of us have mold over the potentially going back. The whole concept of unfinished business among combat vets definitely became more of an issue as this news broke. But I would say a. Disappointment about the same time we worked really hard you know, blood and treasure sweat, tears what have you to stand up their military, to stand up their police force and you know it is their fight now. And you know, this is their country. This is why they did this why we did this, so they could run their own thing. And I mean, I'm angry to. It's too bad. In 2006 when I was there I was in my body for that entire year, lost my platoon sergeant, a dozen other friends. Had like about 170 wounded, had a battalion task force of 1000. You start to feel those losses really quick. And you know, I kind of feel that our effort was wasted if the Iraqi people aren't able to push these people out of Fallujah and Ramadhi again. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: I want to ask you Mike and Nic, both of you, Congressman Duncan Hunter who served with the second Marine battalion in Fallujah back in 2004 has been quoted about the recent takeover saying this administration, meaning the Obama administration, let our victories count for nothing and Nic, what is your reaction to that? NIC POPADITCH: Well like I said I was a career guy. I recognize there's things you can control and then you can and from 8000 miles away it's hard to sit here and Monday morning quarterback but what I will say about the Iraqi people is there is a pride. They were proud of the student democracy, they fought really hard for so for one am not sure this battle is over. I'm not so sure that just raising a flag in a city necessarily means you own it. So having fought alongside them having fought a background I certainly think that the people over there recognizes freedom. They wanted it. They fought for it. We fought with them. A lot was sacrificed there and I don't necessarily think it's over but it's hard to say from this far away for me. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: And Mike, let me just, sorry, Mike, is it your perception that this reversal that's taking place in Fallujah, the responsibility for that is at least partially on the Obama administration's doorstep? MIKE JUDD: Reducing troop numbers, providing exit dates, there's a lot of things that could've been done better. I don't feel that they helped a lot. But, as to whether or not we can blame this entirely on the Obama administration or past administrations I think that's probably quite unfair. But like I said I don't think they've done a whole lot to help the process. It was a political move to get us out of there as fast as we were, as fast as we got out of there. Everybody wanted to see this war end. I wanted to see this war end but I wanted to see it end properly, not this as an election cycle this is a talking point; let's pull out forces out as soon as possible so we can say we did something. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: Let's go to you Mounah. We've heard from Nic who thinks the battle is not over. There are many in this country in the Persian Gulf region who were opposed to US intervention in Iraq for a lot of reasons but one of the primary reasons was the US was not going to be able to solve Iraq's problems and the fighting there by US troops would be in vain. Are we starting to see that happen? MOUNAH ABDEL SAMAD: Unfortunately we are seeing some signs of that. That basically we are not able to reach what we wanted to reach which was a stable and democratic Iraq. Partially we are responsible for that because some of the decision we made when we controlled the country including the debaathification and basically remained dismantling the Army. But also building a state, even the losers have to be included in government and we've seen this like minorities like the Kurds were included. Of course the Kurds were not fighting with Saddam, but minorities like the coalition of Shia and Sunni that were part of the government have to be re-included and we've seen that basically the government that came after we left have not done that. So it's partially a responsibility that is partially the responsibility of the Iraqis themselves and basically the Prime Minister of Iraq Nouri al Maliki has not been doing that and again I see their grievances for these people and unless there is a political solution for this we will see the reemergence of Al Qaeda especially with the opportunity that they have now a geographical depth with Syria. So we seen a vacuum now in Syria where Al Qaeda is coming, existing, preparing himself and come back to Iraq. So now we pushed them out of her body, out of Fallujah. They go out, the situation deteriorates they will come back in. So we need a political way to have these people that are in and bar have mistaken the government and that way they will basically say no you cannot come back to Iraq and this is our country and they will have a stake in this new freedom the necklace talking about. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: Once again we are seeing sort of the end results of the US military intervention being overwhelmed by a nation's internal politics. If you think about Vietnam and the anger and bitterness of all many Vietnam veterans, we lost so many men in Vietnam and lots of people think that that the results of that war were a failure for the US. What lessons should we be learning now from these experiences that we've had in interventions to prepare us to remove all US forces from Afghanistan? Mounah, let me go to you. MOUNAH ABDEL SAMAD: I think there are a lot of issues that needs to be looked at different levels. But one of the most important things is most countries, to be successful transition and democracies if we want, need to include and be inclusive of all groups within society. Even if there's an underrepresentation for smaller minorities in the government, that's important because you're basically rebuilding a state. So if we think for example about Iraq Iraq under Saddam basically existed under dictatorship for the longest period of time. For now there is rebuilding of the social contract that exists between the citizens and the government. So that is not achieved in Iraq now if we think about in Afghanistan also there's a problem because a large portion of the Pashtun are not included. So we have to find ways to good everybody back into the system and have a stake in the system and hopefully that will get us to a better place. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: I want to add there's a Facebook page called Battle of Fallujah veterans of the hundreds of posts up there one of really sort of stood out to me and it is Joe Sanchez writes we fought for one another, not that damn city. The brothers we lost didn't die for that city, they died for us. What is your reaction to that, Nic? NIC POPADITCH: I'm probably a little bit more, certainly anybody rates that opinion that fought there but I'm a little bit more idealistic and modify for those people I fought for liberty human rights that's what US Marines do, that is core values, that courage, honor, commitment. I love the fact that our nation stands up for those things. And so to piggyback that of the earlier question I think one of the problems we have as Americans is that we start thinking about it in terms of Bush's war or that is Obama's war. It's really our war. If we make the decisions to go into it then we fight it to the end. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: Mike, did the brothers that you lost die for the city or region, or did they die for their brothers? MIKE JUDD: No will obviously on the micro level, we were there for each other. The man to your left and right is the most important thing following the mission. However, we did just show up. We had the overall mission was to create stability in the region. And we had that. Sporadically. And I mean it's just like the professor said, we have Shiite leadership in the country. That's disenfranchised and unempowered the Sunnis in Anbar province so you've got tribal leaders who are really angry because they have no power. And I think they have a funding issue with the Sunni militia at one point where the Malki government did not pay them. And the Sunni militia is would stabilize the entire region shortly after my unit left. And I got a little off topic there, yes, we fought for each other, but the big picture, we wanted stability in the region, we wanted the country to run itself and they should be able to defend themselves. In the current government in that country is, they are just, and our province is ripe for Al Qaeda to move in. And I wanted to jump in earlier, but there are so many little extenuating factors that you can't let emotions lead you into. MAUREEN CAVANAUGH: I have to end it there, but I think we've really had a real good discussion. I'm really happy to hear from you all. I've been speaking with US Marine gunnery Sgt. Retired Nic Popaditch, professor Mounah Abdel Samad and Mike Judd with veterans Village of San Diego. Thank you all very much. NIC POPADITCH: Thanks Maureen. MOUNAH ABDEL SAMAD: Thanks Maureen. MIKE JUDD: Thanks Maureen.
Shirley Parrello knows that her youngest boy believed in his mission in Iraq. But as she watches Iraqi government forces try to retake the hard-won city of Fallujah from al-Qaida-linked fighters, she can't help wondering if it was worth Marine Lance Cpl. Brian Parrello's sacrifice.
"I'm starting to feel that his death was in vain," the West Milford, N.J., woman said of her 19-year-old son, who died in an explosion there on Jan. 1, 2005. "I'm hoping that I'm wrong. But things aren't looking good over there right now."
The 2004 image of two charred American bodies hanging from a bridge as a jubilant crowd pelted them with shoes seared the city's name into the American psyche. The brutal house-to-house battle to tame the Iraqi insurgent stronghold west of Baghdad cemented its place in U.S. military history.
But while many are disheartened at Fallujah's recent fall to Islamist forces, others try to place it in the context of Iraq's history of internal struggle since the ouster of dictator Saddam Hussein in 2003. And they don't see the reversal as permanent.
"I'm very disappointed right now, very frustrated," says retired Marine Col. Mike Shupp, who commanded the regimental combat team that secured the city in late 2004. "But this is part of this long war, and this is just another fight, another battle in this long struggle against terrorism and oppression."
Former scout sniper Earl J. Catagnus Jr. fought and bled in the taking of that ancient city on the banks of the Euphrates River. Now a military historian, Catagnus feels the battle has taken on an almost disproportionate importance in the American mind.
"If you watch 'NCIS' or anything that has a Marine ... they always say, 'Oh, I was in Fallujah,'" says the Purple Heart recipient, who left the military as a staff sergeant in 2006 and is now an assistant professor of history at Valley Forge Military Academy & College in Wayne, Pa. "For the new generation, it's because everybody keeps mentioning it. And that is the battle that really made a warrior a warrior. ...
"It's just for us as Americans, because we've elevated that battle to such high standards ... that it becomes turned into the 'lost cause,' the Vietnam War syndrome."
In the annals of the Marine Corps, the battle for Fallujah looms large.
The fighting there began in April 2004 after four security contractors from Blackwater USA were killed and the desecrated bodies of two were hung from a bridge. The so-called second battle of Fallujah — code-named Operation Phantom Fury — came seven months later.
For several bloody weeks, the Marines went house-to-house in what has been called some of the heaviest urban combat involving the Corps since the Battle of Hue City, Vietnam, in 1968. Historian Richard Lowry, who interviewed nearly 200 veterans of the Iraq battle, likens it to "a thousand SWAT teams going through the city, clearing criminals out."
"They entered darkened rooms, kicking down doors, never knowing if they would find an Iraqi family hunkered down in fear or an Islamist terrorist waiting to shoot them and kill them," says Lowry, author of the book "New Dawn: The Battles for Fallujah."
About 100 Americans died and another 1,000 were wounded during the major fighting there, Lowry says, adding that it's difficult to overstate Fallujah's importance in the Iraq war.
"Up until that time, the nation was spiraling into anarchy, totally out of control," says Lowry, a Vietnam-era submarine veteran. "The United States Marine Corps — with help from the Army and from the Iraqis — went into Fallujah and cleared the entire city and brought security to Anbar Province, allowing the Iraqis to hold their first successful election."
And that is why the al-Qaida takeover is such a bitter disappointment for many.
Former Marine Lance Cpl. Garrett Anderson's unit lost 51 members in the city. When he considers whether the fighting was in vain, it turns his stomach.
"As a war fighter and Marine veteran of that battle, I feel that our job was to destroy our enemy. That was accomplished at the time and is why our dead will never be in vain. We won the day and the battle," said the 28-year-old, who now studies filmmaking in Portland, Ore. "If Marines were in that city today there would be dead Qaida all over the streets again, but the reality is this is only the beginning of something most people who have been paying attention since the war began knew was going to end this way."
On Tuesday, the site duffelblog.com posted a satirical column about two former Marines raising $1,300 on Kickstarter to go back and retake the city in time for the battle's 10th anniversary.
"We paid for that city and we're keeping it!" one fictional commenter tells the site.
The piece had more than 30,000 Facebook likes by Wednesday.
Lowry says the U.S. "abandoned" the region's Sunnis, paving the way for a Shiite-led government that has "gotten into bed with the Iranians." He adds: "There is a polarization returning between the Shiites and the Sunnis ... and it's spreading."
Catagnus and others say the situation is more nuanced than that.
A sergeant with 3rd Battalion, 5th Marines at the time, Catagnus was gearing up to go out when insurgents detonated the improvised bomb about 8 feet away. Despite a concussion and shrapnel wounds to his face, he never left the line.
While conceding that the battle helped change doctrine for urban warfare, he thinks Fallujah has become politicized — especially here at home.
"There's a lot of fiery language around it," he says. "I do not see this as the culmination of the failure of all of our efforts — yet."
Roman Baca, who served in Fallujah for about eight months as a sergeant in the Marine Corps Reserves, says it's hard for him to hear people question the military's work there. During his time, his machine gun platoon spent many of its days patrolling local villages, delivering school supplies to students and food and water.
The 39-year-old New York City man returned to Iraq last year to conduct a dance workshop. He's most worried about what the outbreak of violence means for the Iraqis.
"You think of those kids in the villages that were so young who are now either teenagers or in their 20s," he says. "What does it mean for them? What does it mean for the interpreters who were in danger then and are in danger again because they helped the Americans and their cause?"
For some veterans, the reversal of fortunes in Anbar, while unfortunate, is hardly surprising.
"I was always of the impression that Iraq was sort of doomed to fail no matter what we did," says Derek Richardson of Redmond, Wash., a former Marine corporal who fought in the house-to-house action in late 2004. Now an investigator in Microsoft's legal department, he adds, "For me, it was more about winning individual battles" and keeping his comrades safe.
David R. Franco survived a roadside bomb blast outside Fallujah in 2005. The retired Marine suffers from back pain, traumatic brain injury, post-traumatic stress disorder, and other ailments that send him to doctors and psychologists regularly.
"To me, it was just a matter of time for it to happen again and for al-Qaida to go back in there," said the 53-year-old veteran of Moorpark, Calif., who retired as a sergeant major. "It'll be a constant thing." Still, Franco — whose son was also wounded in Iraq — says it was worth it.
So does Nick Popaditch.
On April 7, 2004, Popaditch's tank was struck by a rocket-propelled grenade as he rolled through the city. Shrapnel tore through his sinuses and destroyed his right eye — now strikingly replaced by a prosthetic bearing the Marine Corps logo.
The gunnery sergeant's actions earned him a Silver Star and Purple Heart, but cost him his career. The San Diego-area man is studying to be a high school math teacher, and he refuses to second-guess the recent events in Iraq.
"There's a lot of downtrodden people there who got a shot at a free life, at freedom," says Popaditch, 46, who ran unsuccessfully for Congress in 2012. "And if the bad guys come back into control, that's not something I can control 8,000 miles away here. I'm just proud of the fact that when it came time to stand and fight for those things, those concepts of freedom, liberty, human rights ... I'm glad my nation did it."
For his part, Shupp, the former colonel, is convinced that many of those holding sway in Fallujah aren't al-Qaida, but simply "armed thugs." Even before the U.S.-led invasion, many Iraqis considered the city a "crossroads of criminal activity," and his troops were never meant to be "an army of occupation."
"It's one of the lifetime struggles of good versus bad," says Shupp, who now works as a defense lobbyist in Washington, D.C. "And this is the time for Iraq to come forward. We gave them all the tools. We gave them the ability to fight these guys."
Watson reported from San Diego. Breed, a national writer, reported from Raleigh, N.C. Associated Press writer Kevin Freking in Washington, D.C., also contributed to this report.
