Doctor charged in 2019 jail death

S1: A doctor is charged in the death of an inmate at Las Colinas Jail.

S2: The Lisa died on November 11 , 2019. She'd been in jail for a few days at that point.

S1: I'm Maureen CAVANAUGH with Jade Heineman. This is KPBS midday edition. A discussion on the impact of Proposition 31.

S3: That it would ban most flavored tobacco products. That includes flavored e-cigarette cartridges , vape juice flavored chewing tobacco.

S1: The reasons behind the planned Kroger Albertsons merger and the former co-anchor of ESPN SportsCenter , Jemele Hill , talks about her new memoir. That's ahead on Midday Edition. A doctor has been charged with involuntary manslaughter after an inmate in her care died at Las Colinas jail back in 2019. Dr. Frederica von Lind Tig pleaded not guilty to charges in court on Wednesday. 24 year old Elisa Serna was found dead in her cell after suffering a seizure and hitting her head on the cell wall. Von Lynn Tig faces up to four years in prison if convicted. Joining me now to talk about this is Kellie Davis , a freelance writer whose work appears in the San Diego Union Tribune. And , Kellie , welcome.

S2: Thank you very. Much.

S1: Much. Of what is known about what happened leading up to Alisa Stern , whose death comes from a lawsuit her family filed against the county.

S2: She'd been in jail for a few days at that point. She was suffering from heroin withdrawal and pneumonia. And she had been vomiting. She had very clear signs of dehydration. Her skin was dry to the touch. Her blood pressure was very low. Her oxygen saturation level was very low. She was having fainting spells. And around 2 p.m. that day of several hours before she died , she appeared to have a seizure. So she was taken to see Dr. von Linde Tig , who noted in Elisa's chart that she believed Alisa was seeking secondary gain , which is a term used in medicine to refer to patients who are suspected of making up symptoms for to get attention or for some other benefit. So as the lawsuit says , the doctor did not take Elisa's vitals , did not examine her at all. Lisa was returned to her cell and around 7 p.m. that evening , a nurse , Danieli Pasqua , who's also been charged with involuntary manslaughter in this case , accompanied by a deputy. They went to at least a cell. They watched as Elisa suffered another seizure. She collapsed. She hit her head against the wall. She was unconscious when she hit the floor. And this is all documented on surveillance video. And instead of summoning medical help , nurse Pasqua and the deputy left the cell. And here I'm going to quote from the lawsuit for an hour. No one came to the cell during this time. Alisa can be seen on the video monitors dying and urinating on herself. The deputy station was immediately across the small hallway , but no one monitored Lisa , despite the fact she been placed in the medical observation unit. Lisa Stern had died on the floor of her jail cell. It was an hour before anyone discovered her body.

S1: So that is from the lawsuit filed by Alisa Stern. Is family against the county nurse. Stanley Pasqual was also charged with involuntary manslaughter. That happened last year.

S2: The preliminary hearing is today.

S1: Now , it's been almost exactly three years since Alisa Stern is death.

S2: And as we saw , they decided about a year ago to to submit the case to the district attorney's office for the nurse. And the DA's office did charge a nurse , Pascale , with involuntary manslaughter. And the D.A. in this case told me that , you know , they were reviewing everyone who played any part in Elisa's death. And as far as Dr. volunteered what they really wanted to to make sure they had a case there. So they had the state medical board review , the case review. Dr. Von Lynn takes actions and an expert said , yes , she absolutely acted improperly. And so that that took some time for that review to happen. And it gave the DA's office confidence that they did have enough to charge Dr. Valenti. So I did ask if if Deputy District Attorney John Dunlap , who had it , was heading up the case yesterday , I asked if he could elaborate on those findings by the state medical board , and he said he couldn't. But he did say we charge people when we believe we can prove a crime beyond a reasonable doubt.

S1: Now , a sheriff's deputy was also on duty with the nurse. Possible.

S2: I did ask Mr. Dunlap about this and he again emphasized the D.A. only files charges in cases they can prove. But in February 2021 , the Citizens Enforcement Review Board , which has oversight over the sheriff's department , not sheriff's medical staff , but sworn staff deputies , they did issue findings that the deputy who had accompanied Nurse Pasco violated department policy by failing to recognize and respond to Elisa's medical needs.

S1: Now , a state audit earlier this year found that the San Diego County Sheriff's Department failed to adequately assess inmates physical and mental health.

S2: And Dr. Von Linde takes arraignment yesterday. And they told me the sheriff's department is committed to providing compassionate medical services for the health , safety and well-being of everyone entrusted in our care. And they said they will they have and will continue to follow strict protocols for investigating and responding to any allegations of misconduct involving medical care of folks in their jails.

S1:

S2: They're very grateful to the DA's office for the attention that they're giving to this case. And of course , all these hearings and stuff that's required. They live in Idaho , and so it's requiring them to to come down to San Diego. And it's it's very emotionally trying for them. But they were they were all there yesterday. Elisa's mother , Lisa's father and her two sisters. And it was it was difficult for them. It was very emotional. But again , they were they were very grateful for the attention that this case was getting. They want justice for their daughter. They said she was a beautiful , smart young woman. She struggled with with drug addiction , but they felt like she was , you know , really working to overcome that at the time of her death.

S1: KELLY Last week you reported that the San Diego County Sheriff's Department is launching a pilot program that will outfit ten of the downtown Central jail's most medically at risk people with a health monitoring device.

S2: And these these medical devices , these monitors , which are almost like a Fitbit , you know , they go on a wrist or an ankle and they measure vital , vital signs and they will alert someone. They will alert a deputy if vital signs drop. This is something that has saved lives in other jails. But as we see it , at least this case , you know , in order to identify the most medically vulnerable folks in jails , we need the doctor to give that person a thorough review. So a doctor can't just write someone off as making up symptoms.

S1: I've been speaking with reporter and writer Kelly Davis. Kelly , thank you so much.

S2: Thank you , Mary Lou.

S4: Among the seven propositions on the ballot this year , one takes a closer look at a state law passed in 2020 banning flavored tobacco products. Proposition 31 would uphold a ban on flavored pods for vape pens. Electronic cigarettes and other tobacco products to better protect kids and teens from tobacco use. That's what proponents argue. But opponents argue the law is unnecessary , saying sufficient protections for young people already are in place. Here to tell us more is Ben Christopher , a reporter covering California politics and elections with Calmatters. Ben , welcome.

S3: Thank you.

S4:

S3: So that includes flavored e-cigarette cartridges , vape juice flavored chewing tobacco. Most flavored cigarettes are already banned at the federal level , but this would also ban menthol cigarettes. So we're not just talking the sort of exotic or kid friendly flavors , but any flavor , really , although fruit , the products would be exempt.

S4:

S3: There's also an exception for certain types of cigars and loose leaf tobacco.

S4:

S3: So if you want to ban most flavored tobacco products in California , you vote yes. If you don't vote no.

S4: This proposition is whether to keep a law that was passed by the legislature and governor in 2020. Why is it on the ballot now ? Yes.

S3: So the California Constitution allows any group that doesn't like a law that's passed by the legislature to to gather signatures , to put it up for for a vote. So we saw this in 2020 with a law that banned cash bail. Voters actually overturned that one. And this case you saw the legislature passed a bill in 2020 , as you mentioned , banning most tobacco flavored tobacco products. And obviously , the tobacco industry did not like that. And so they funded this referendum campaign. And so here we are.

S4:

S3: We're talking with Philip morris and R.J. Reynolds. Those are the two biggest. And as I mentioned , they did not like this this bill that was passed by the legislature in 2020. And by putting it on the ballot , they actually froze the implementation of the the law until this election. And so even if they lose , they still bought themselves two extra years reprieve.

S4:

S3: So there's that. But but you do have sort of more high minded arguments for a no vote. That would be sort of the freedom argument that adults should be allowed to smoke strawberry flavored tobacco if they want to. Kids are already prevented by law from smoking. And if you ban these products , they're just going to be an underground market for them. So they're sort of the anti prohibition argument. California decided in 2016 that prohibition of marijuana was a bad idea. And so they should make the same decision about flavored tobacco. That's the argument.

S4:

S3: You have candy and fruit and pina colada and honey and that kind of thing. And I think , of course , you know , the supporters of this come from the public health field. And their ultimate goals is to reduce the number of smokers , period. And so by preventing these products from from being on the market that would appeal to kids , you're not you're preventing that many more new lifetime smokers. There's also the argument that menthol cigarettes in particular have been marketed to black consumers specifically for decades. And so they also make a racial justice argument as well.

S4:

S3: As I mentioned , in 2020 , the legislature's ban on cash bail was overturned by the voters. But in this case , the polling does look pretty good for the yes side. The last public poll that I saw was from UC Berkeley that conducted in late September , and it had supported about 57% compared to 31% opposed. And given how much more more money there is on the yes side , thanks to a lot of contributions from Michael Bloomberg , I think things are looking pretty good for the campaign.

S4: I've been speaking with Ben Christopher , who covers California politics and elections for Cal Matters. Ben , thanks.

S3: Thank you so much.

S1: This is KPBS midday edition. I'm Maureen CAVANAUGH with Jade Heineman. It's been just over a year since a teenager alleged she was gang raped by San Diego State University football players at a Halloween party off campus. However , no criminal charges have been filed and SDSU says its own investigation is still ongoing. Meanwhile , KPBS reporter Alexander Winn says a team of outside auditors is examining how the university conducts Title nine investigations.

S3: Last year , Jordyn Rosenquist was just another freshman on Sdsu's campus. Then September 8th happened.

S2: I was sexually assaulted in a SDSU dorm hall.

S3: She immediately reported the alleged assault to the university's Channel Nine office , which is in charge of investigating allegations of sexual violence on campus. But instead of being helped , she says she felt pushed back.

S2: So I did not feel supported by the SDSU Title nine office at all. I felt like I was more working against them than they were working with me , she says.

S3: The university did not immediately inform her of her rights as a sexual assault victim. She had to hire a lawyer for that. That was not what's supposed to happen under Title nine , says attorney Jenna Ringel.

S4: I think that when the school receives any report of sexual harassment or assault , they do have a duty to promptly respond and provide information about what their grievance processes , their investigative process , and then what supportive measures they might have available.

S3: Spring Hill is currently representing the women's rowing team who are suing SDSU for Title nine violation in sports but is not a party to this case. CSU isn't the only campus in the California State University system with issues surrounding Title nine. In fact , the CSU Board of Trustees order a system wide audit of the Title nine process at all 23 campuses. The audit started in March at Fresno State , and auditors will be on SDSU campus in November. Ring now expects auditors to thoroughly examined how CSU Title nine office handles complaints.

S4: They are going to be looking at all instances in which complaints were made , how those complaints were made.

S1: Meaning do they have effective.

S4: Policies and procedures in place and notices in place to where the people who complained were able to find that information easily.

S3: Rosenquist says. The university needs to do a much better job of making victims feel protected. She talks about living in fear of her attacker , even after getting a restraining order against him.

S2: I felt so much anxiety every single day when I was on campus because I even brought the restraining order to the San Diego State Police Department and officials on campus. I gave a copy to Title nine , and he actually violated that restraining order. And I reported it and they did nothing about it , Rosenquist says.

S3: SDSU Title nine office totally waited to investigate her allegation because it's policy to wait until after the police investigation is over. In a statement to KPBS , SDSU says no such policy is in place. But this was the same reason SDSU gave for not starting its investigation into the rape allegation against three football players at a Halloween party off campus last year. That incident happened roughly a month after Rosenquist alleged assault.

S2: That hit a chord with me because I really felt for that person , because although our incidents were not the same , I knew what they were going.

S3: Through , the university says. It was asked by police not to start its own investigation because doing so might taint the criminal investigation. This is not the first time there has been a Title nine audit at SDSU. In 2014 , an audit found that SDSU faculty and staff were not sufficiently trained in responding to and reporting sexual assault and harassment. The report also faulted SDSU for not requiring students to undergo yearly sexual assault and harassment prevention training. Since then , the university has mandated the training for all student and staff. Rosenquist hopes the new audit will lead to much needed changes to the Title nine office at San Diego State.

S2: They really need to push for protecting their students and protecting their survivors that have gone through this rather than just kind of being passive.

S4: In the process.

S1: That story was reported by CFPB's , Alexander Winn , and he joins me now. Welcome to the program.

S3: Well , thank you for having me again.

S1: The student you spoke with , Jordan , says she had to hire an attorney to find out her rights after reporting an assault to SDSU.

S3: The lawyer was just to help her navigate the process of reporting the sexual assault and filing criminal charges against her alleged attacker. And we are seeing alleged here as he has not been convicted of any crimes.

S1:

S3: The case was more or less concluded earlier this month and he was found to have violated the school's policy on sexual assault and violence. And I just want to make it clear that the burden of proof for a Title nine investigation is much lower than a criminal investigation. The burden of proof is what is known as the preponderance of the evidence , meaning that it was more likely than not that something happened. And she has recommended that the school expel her alleged attacker , which is a hollow victory because he has left the university and returned to Dubai.

S1: Now , she says she reported a violation of a restraining order against her alleged attacker and the school did nothing about it.

S3: If it was found that someone did violate a restraining order , you know , they could arrest the person.

S1:

S3:

S1: Now , Jordan says the Title nine office told her they'd have to wait to investigate until after the police investigation was finished. And as you point out , that's what the woman who has alleged a gang rape by SDSU football players has said she was told by the school , too. Now , SDSU says that it has no such policy.

S3: Yes , the school says there is no blanket policy to wait until the police investigation is over in the alleged football gang rape case. The university said it was asked by police not to start its own investigation because it might interfere with the criminal investigation. The attorney I talked to in the story said the Tunnel nine doesn't have a guidance on whether schools could start an investigation while police investigation is going on. So it's up to the each individual schools. But that attorney also said there is no reason why both the Title nine and police investigation couldn't happen at the same time. They are looking for different things. The police are looking for a proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. While the town office is only looking for the preponderance of the evidence.

S1:

S3: The school releases a Title nine report on Sexual violence and misconduct each academic year at the end of June 2021 , which is the last year of the report. There were eight reports of sexual assault , misconduct , stalking and domestic violence by student. That's just all one category. And a good number of those were resolved without an investigation because either the student who filed the report did not want to file a formal complaint or didn't respond to outreach by the Title nine office. There were only two cases in which the person accused was held responsible , resulting in one expulsion and one suspension.

S1:

S3: The administration makes sure that the survivor is referred to support services such as a sexual assault victims advocate.

S1: Okay , so another Title nine audit is coming next month to SDSU.

S3: The auditors will talk to the Title nine office , the victim advocate , faculty , staff and students. And this is part of a system wide audit of all 23 Cal State University campuses. And it started back. In March. It's not expected to be completed until the spring. So if we're being optimistic , we can expect to see the results by summer. One thing I want to note is that while reporting on this story , I found that there is a wide disparity in the title online process between campuses. The only consistency I found is that there are no consistencies. It'll be interesting to see what the audit report says.

S1: I've been speaking with KPBS reporter Alexandra Winn , and thank you so much for joining us.

S3: Well , thank you for having me.

S4: A measure to legalize online betting. In California , Prop 27 has created a record spending war between gambling companies who support the measure and many California tribe governments who oppose it. As KQED Guy Maserati and Kap Radio's Nicole Nixon explained. The measure has sparked a debate over the issue of tribal sovereignty.

S5: Most of the California tribes who have weighed in on Proposition 27 are against it. But if you've seen , yes , on Prop 27 ads , you've probably noticed the guy in a bright red shirt. Prop 27 supports financially disadvantaged tribes that don't own big casinos. That's Simon , chair of the Middletown Rancheria of Pomo Indians in rural Lake County , north of Napa. For much of the summer and fall , his face was a constant presence on TV in support of Prop 27 by taxing and regulating online sports betting for adults 21 and over. We can protect tribal sovereignty. And Middletown , Rancheria is one of three tribes that supports Prop 27. But Nicole found that more than 50 tribes oppose it. They're worried in part about language tucked away in the measure that could potentially undermine tribal sovereignty.

S2: Sovereignty refers to the inherent right of tribal nations to govern their own lands and people. And in California , they also have exclusive rights to offer casino style games on their lands if they have the resources for gaming. Jeff Butler is general counsel for the Yoga de Winton Nation , a Northern California tribe that operates a casino resort. He says many tribes are skeptical of Prop 27 because it would require them to sign new agreements with big companies like FanDuel or DraftKings to offer online sports betting.

S3: But the problem with that is that to do so , the tribe expressly must waive its sovereign immunity. It's going to allow itself to be sued. And that is a it's a nonstarter with respect to tribes.

S2: Sovereignty is crucial to tribal cultures , especially after generations of genocidal policies from European colonizers that resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of native people , stolen lands and fractured tribal identity. These policies continued well into the 1960s , says Joely Proudfoot. She directs the California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center at Cal State , San Marcos. What makes a tribe is its people and the tribe having the wherewithal and the resources to govern its people and its lands and its waters is critical. So to.

S1: Lose that.

S2: And just have the people blend into society as simply another racialized group is really harmful to tribal peoples. Proudfoot says tribal gaming and casinos have helped pull tribes out of poverty and provide essential services like health care and housing. Tribal sovereignty is wonderful , but having the resources to.

S1: Enact tribal.

S2: Sovereignty are critical.

S5: And that point about resources is why maximum the tribal chairman featured in the Yes on 27 ads finds himself on the other side of dozens of tribes. Middletown , Rancheria , has looked at the opportunities for us to grow for the next seven generations , and we're limited. The roughly 250 member tribe runs the Twin Pines Casino and Hotel , but it's not a big gaming operation. For Simon , the chance to partner with an online sports betting company could bring money for economic development and the potential to buy back tribal lands. This is just an opportunity for one tribe to make a decision , a sovereign decision on how they're going to move their people forward. Polls show Prop 27 looks headed to defeat , but these questions of tribal sovereignty and sports betting aren't going away , as the issue could be back on the ballot again in 2024. I'm Guy Mars Arati.

S2: And I'm Nicole Nickson.

S1: The supermarket chains of Kroger's and Albertsons announced their plans to merge last week , leaving employees nervous and customers confused. The merger of the brands that include Ralphs and Vons is valued at almost $25 billion. The combined supermarket powerhouse would gobble up 19% of the grocery market. So is this a good thing or a bad thing ? Industry expert journalist Benjamin Law says good or bad , it may be inevitable. If the chains want to survive in an unsustainable business model. Joining me is Benjamin Law , author of The Secret Life of Groceries The Dark Miracle of the American Supermarket. And , Benjamin , welcome to the show.

S3: Well , thanks so much for having me.

S1:

S3: You're talking 5000 stores that stock our food , 50 manufacturing centers that make our food and over 700,000 workers who are picking , stocking , sweeping the floors and running registers , delivering food. This would be a $200 billion deal , which amounts to almost 20% of the entire gross trillion dollar grocery market.

S1: Now , in a recent L.A. Times article , you describe the competition Kroger's and Albertson are facing.

S3: It's one of the most it's the most concentrated it's ever been. And you've just seen an incredible winnowing of chains. So when we talk about Kroger and Albertsons , you might not have ever stepped foot in one , but you certainly recognize one of the three banners that they've kind of collected over the years , from Ralphs to Vons to all the way down the line. And that's just a graveyard , really , of banners that these firms have gobbled up as they've grown bigger in that they mirror the grocery industry as a whole. Wal-Mart right now sits with about a 27% share of the grocery market. Costco , no slouch , has a somewhere around a 9% share of the grocery industry. It's an incredibly consolidated industry. The top five firms control about 60% in highly concentrated market areas.

S1: You make the case that the current supermarket business model is unsustainable.

S3: Probably the foremost and most easily graspable is they're trapped in a race to the bottom of their own making in grocery sizes , everything. It's a low margin business , and the way to make a profit in a low margin business is through volume tons and tons of volume. That has been incredibly successful from a historical perspective and in a competitive marketplace actually brings a lot of savings to the consumer. As that model continues , it inevitably shrinks the marketplace and then causes a lot of the same forces that were bringing benefits to consumers start to act against consumers and really consolidate profits. Among a few small chains.

S1: Supermarket employees find themselves squeezed in this race to the bottom.

S3: And so there's no secret that this will be bad for labor. And labor organizations are already coming out against the deal.

S1: The two corporations in question say that a merger would pass on savings to customers.

S3: And traditionally in a competitive marketplace , you would take those synergies and corporate does speak for efficiencies of scale and pass those on to consumers in the form of lower prices. The problem is the marketplace is no longer competitive enough to ensure that these firms will do that. And when we look at prior record just how they behaved during the pandemic , when they were raking in record profits at a time when pricing was kind of out of control , I think it's clear that they're not incentivized to do that and that it's very likely that those savings will just go in to corporate buybacks , executive bonuses and profits.

S1:

S3: Look , Costco has a membership based model that although they control a large percent of the market , they don't operate in the same way that a Kroger and Albertsons do. Their number one objective is making their members feel good about things. There are small independent stores that really specialize in food knowledge , that specialize in local purveyors , that specialize in providing optionality. That's a different model that I think has some legs. It's difficult , though. The savings that you get through scale are enormous. And it's been a tremendously profitable and successful model for a reason that it passes on savings to consumers for a long time. That seems like it's changing with this consolidation , but it's very scary to break from something that's worked for so long.

S1:

S3: So I don't think this merger is going to suddenly favor more seasonal products by local or small midsize producers. I don't think there's going to be a rash of craft brewers showing up on your shelves. The savings come from the uniformity , which comes from a slimming down of optionality , turning to the same consolidated group of suppliers to provide those savings , I think prices. It turns out that consumers are terrible at noticing prices , so there might not be a perception of raised prices , but I think there will be small raising and prices and they'll just be less choice in a lot of market areas. There's simply less store optionality where you're choosing between less places to go shop.

S1: I've been speaking with journalist Benjamin Lau , author of The Secret Life of Groceries The Dark Miracle of the American Supermarket. And Benjamin , thanks a lot for joining us.

S3: All right. Thanks so much for having me.

S4: You're listening to KPBS midday edition. I'm Jade Hindman with Maureen CAVANAUGH. Sports journalist Jemele Hill has shattered glass ceilings and made a career out of exploring the intersections of sports , politics , race , culture , gender and so much more. As an Emmy Award winning former co-host of ESPN Sports Center , the 2018 NABJ Journalist of the Year and contributing writer for The Atlantic. She is known for telling hard truths. And in her new book , Uphill , Jamil shares the story of her work , family and relationships. And she joins us now. Jamil , welcome to Midday Edition.

S1: Thank you. I appreciate you having me.

S4:

S1: They want to know what shaped them , what was important to them , their mistakes , triumphs , failures , all of those things. And given what my career has been as a journalist , I could not imagine. You know , writing a memoir and not being truthful and transparent , you know , kind of goes against the grain and the core tenets of journalism. So if that's the expectation that I have when I sit down with the subject , it felt like it would be insulting to the audience if I did not deliver the same honesty and truth and authenticity that I think most of us want to see in the people that we choose to listen to.

S4: One of the things that you talk about in your book is the backlash that you received when you called Donald Trump a white supremacist.

S1: I mean , I thought it was kind of obvious. So that's why I think in my book , I referred to it as one of the most unoriginal things I've ever said. And I was just as surprised as anybody by the intense backlash. I thought at that point , especially this post Charlottesville , that America had fully understood the element that was in the office of the president. But clearly , that wasn't the case. I do think some of the backlash and the reaction was rooted in the who and the where , the who being a black woman , the where be ESPN. I didn't say this on the air. Of course I said it on social media. But because this is so closely aligned to my identity , being a sports anchor at ESPN , I think it was the the unlikeliness of it coming from somebody like me who represented the company I represented at the time. You know , maybe it would have been different if I worked at CNN or a news outlet that traditionally covers politics. But because I was coming from a sports base , I think that drew a different kind of attention.

S4: How important do you think it is for journalists and news organizations to be direct in describing these sorts of things , in saying when something is racist , you're saying it when someone is a white supremacist just saying it.

S1: And frankly , I think the media has abdicated their responsibility , not just in telling the truth about racism , but also in telling the truth about a lot of things , about the fate of our democracy , about our political climate. You know , we keep trying to hide behind the false shell of objectivity. Objectivity is not what you should strive for as a journalist. You should strive for fairness. That's different and you should strive , you know , to obviously tell the truth. You know , that truth may be on one side or the other. And if you you know , if anybody is familiar with what are some of the core values that are supposed to be part of journalism , certainly ones that I heard throughout my career as I was coming up as a journalist , it was being a watchdog of society. It was holding people in power accountable. How can you hold people in power accountable if you don't tell the truth ? If you don't ask questions , if you don't inspire people to critically think. That's the whole point of journalism. So I think by the media , in many cases , just not being courageous enough to do this. I mean , a lot of it is because media is so corporate and behind these corporations are people who are kind of invested in the chaos. And also there are people who support some of the political candidates or the people or the institutions that need to be most checked. And it's because of that that , you know , you wind up getting a very cowardly approach to some of the serious issues that we have in this country.

S4: Something else you talk about in your book was your salary , the salaries that you made at ESPN , for example , and you gave insight into the contract negotiations.

S1: Because if you know what a company has to work with or if you can understand what the landscape is , I think it makes you more informed and a sharper negotiator when it's your time to negotiate a contract. And it was also , you know , my way of showing the difference between perception and reality. You know , when I first get to ESPN , the perception is that every contract you get , you're going to make an obscene amount of money. And that's not really true. I mean , my first contract , by the standards of the contracts that I had overall at ESPN was was pretty terrible. It was the worst one. You know , I felt like a new artist. They got the record deal that we know that first deal is just never going to do it right. And so so I think people , because I was at ESPN , just assumed that , you know , I just was balling and rolling in dough. And I think for black women who tend to be at the lower rung of the pay scale , it's really important that we share that kind of information so that we can truly capitalize on our worth.

S4: You describe yourself as unbothered.

S1: I don't care. But that's not what it's supposed to be is supposed to mean. When you reach a point in your life where you're so comfortable in your own skin , where you don't really need validation in order to stick and stay in your truth and you don't need it as something that helps you program your every move. Then you reach a state where you you divorce yourself from caring about what other people think and how other people are judging your life.

S4:

S1: I hope they also understand the importance and value in getting to learn the full selves of the people they most care about so that you can understand their perspective. You're not saying you have to agree with it , but you can at least understand it. And more importantly , it leads to them getting more grace from you.

S4:

S1: It's 30 for 30 that'll , you know , be on ESPN. And that's been a fabulous experience with working with Spike Lee , who's directing it. I'm also launching a podcast network with Spotify , the Unbothered Network , which is for black women Centers , Black women , Black Women LED , and the first two podcasts and the network are dropping the first two weeks to November Black Girl Bravado , which was an existing podcast that we license and. Sanctify , which is an original that addresses the modern way in which black women worship. Touching on all the taboo topics in the church that go addressed and unaddressed , particularly the things that happen outside the pulpit and the pews. And so I'm really excited about both of these projects.

S4: It sounds fascinating. Congratulations to you on your upcoming projects and the release of your book.

S1: Thank you. I appreciate it.

S4: I've been speaking with sports journalist Jemele Hill , whose memoir Uphill is out now. Jamil , thank you so much for joining us.

S1: Thank you.