S1: Reporter. It's time for Midday Edition on Kpbs. Today we are talking about students finding success outside of a four year degree in the trades. I'm Jade Hindman. Here's to conversations that keep you informed , inspired , and make you think. College isn't the only inroad to success.
S2: I tried college and it just really wasn't what I was expecting it to be or wanted to be. And , uh , just kind of decided this was more my speed.
S1: Students are rethinking career paths and the return on investment of a bachelor's degree. That's ahead on midday edition. Welcome in San Diego , it's Jade Hindman. More and more students are finding that a college degree isn't the only inroad to success. From welding and construction to lithium mining. Trade programs are an option. This is midday edition , connecting our communities through conversation. These days , more and more young people are gravitating towards trade , professions think construction , welding , plumbing , carpentry , the list goes on. A survey last year by software company jobber looked into this. They found 3 in 4. High school and college age students are interested in vocational schools with paid on the job training. There's also growing doubt around the return value of a four year college degree and the debt associated with it. Joining me now is 24 year old welder Jack Pinocchio. He's completing his training at San Diego College of Continuing Education. Jack , welcome. Hi. So glad to have you here.
S2: That's that's a good way to put it. It's. It's it's fun. Um , you get to be work outside most of the time , which is a lot nicer to me , at least , than working in something like an office. And also , you get to work with some really incredible people. Um , in addition to learning like it's it's really an art form. It's it's my thing. I tried college and it it just really wasn't what I was expecting it to be or wanted to be. And , uh , just kind of decided this was more my speed.
S3: So why was it.
S1: That way for you ? Why wasn't it something you were interested in continuing , I should say. Right.
S2: Right. So I did , three years before , uh , deciding to change gears. Um , I went there for aerospace engineering , and , like , I had these dreams of building rockets and learning how planes work and stuff like that , and I like , I didn't really get much of that.
S1: I mean , you decided to leave college after after going through all of that.
S2: It was it was kind of just like the only pathway that they really presented for me. And so I was like , cool. I guess that's what I'm going to do , and I'm going to be successful because that's what they keep telling me. So I went there , I came here , and I mean , I had a good three years. I wouldn't say they were bad , but the real turning point , I think , was Covid. They actually ended up raising our tuition , uh , when everything went online , which was didn't really make much sense to me. And it just felt very disorienting , as I believe it did for a lot of people. I was already struggling in large scale lectures , which was the majority of what my classes were. Um , and then transferring to doing that online just was even more impersonal. I was I was really , really struggling. So I decided to take a break. Um , in 2020 and then to try it again , 2021. Yeah. Um , and ended up , uh , dropping out completely at that point.
S1: So you didn't feel like you were getting the experience that you wanted. Um , and you just the bills were piling on there from tuition. Are you getting what you want out of welding ? Absolutely.
S2: Um , I actually so out of that , I ended up taking a job in the shipyards here , and , uh , that kind of gave me a taste for welding. And that then pushed me to go to trade school. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Um , was it someone in your family , a welder or. I mean , what ? Got you interested ? No.
S2: Uh , it's just one of those things I've always kind of enjoyed. Like , I've enjoyed working with my hands since I can remember , pretty much. But it was always one of those things. Whenever I would see it on TV or , like , see somebody doing it , you see , like the sparks flying , the really bright lights , and the guy just in there doing it in a cloud of smoke. And I was like , that's really cool. I kind of want to try that. And then I tried it and I really liked it. So what is it.
S1: That you make on a day to day basis.
S2: On day to day ? Right now , what we're doing in school is mostly what's called a plate test. Um , it's basically just two pieces of metal with a groove in the center. And that's what you weld up. That's 90% of what your weld tests are going to look like. Um , there's also pipe tests and we do some of that there pipe , um , pipe fitting , pipe welding , stuff like that.
S1: And you've brought some equipment in with you.
S2: Um , depending on the process , things can get pretty , pretty hot. Um , especially as you're welding. I was actually working on some stuff yesterday that was getting so hot , the entire plate was starting to melt a little bit. I had I had the wrong settings. And also you'll get a lot of , uh , metal spraying back at you , and that just helps protect from that. Uh , and then I also brought , uh , one of my welding hoods. It's , uh , the actual term is a sock hood. It's a kind of more of a specialty hood. Um , it's for getting into really , really tight areas where your normal hood won't fit. It's kind of a last resort thing. Um , but still works great. And. Yeah.
S1: Looks like it's.
S2: So it's a leather , um , leather beanie cap , essentially with a little bib and then , um , a plastic , uh , plastic lens fitted in there. And you can also flip the lens up so that if you need to get grinding and do all that kind of stuff , do a little repair or get your material prepped , you can do that as well.
S1: And obviously this is plastic that does not melt.
S2: No , does not melt. Well , it'll melt a little bit , but it won't burn. That's the big thing I can deal with melting. I can't deal with burning.
S1: No , no you can't. Well , you know , welding is it's a crucial part of our infrastructure.
S2: Um , it's one of those things growing up and then also especially starting the trade school every. Everyone I talk to. Oh. You're welding. Oh , you're gonna make so much money. There's , like , no one's doing that right now. But I've also. The Navy is looking for a lot of welding right now. They're , uh , looking to upgrade their , uh , upgrade and retrofit their submarine fleet. So I'm probably going to go back to the Navy. Um , uh , as a civilian contractor for the immediate future , they're always hiring. Uh , there's a lot of different companies that work with the Navy. Um , or you can actually get hired directly with the Department of the Navy as a civilian contractor to work on their bases and work on their vessels. All steel , all welded.
S1:
S2: But if you wanted to do a year or a year and a half and get a job , that's totally doable as well.
S1: How much does it cost ? Nothing.
S2: It's free.
S1: Nothing at all.
S2: Um , I might not be the best person to ask about that , but , uh , the quotes that I've gotten as like somebody straight out of high school or anywhere from 25 to $30 an hour , but I know people can go up to 50 , $60 an hour in a couple of years , um , to even as high as 100 to $120 an hour , or if you're doing , um , like , uh , oil rig work or , uh , underwater welding , you can start making a couple hundred dollars an hour.
S1: I mean , that sounds like a lot of money to come out of school or a program and make , um , but it is hard labor. Um , so do you have any concerns about , like , long term career stability in welding ? Absolutely.
S2: But there's other paths that you can take as well. Um , and in addition , the , the health hazards and , um , if you wear the right gear and you do the right things and take the preventative maintenance , it has gotten a lot better to where you're not going to have as much of a tax on your body. Um , but if you do get tired of welding or find that it's not really something that you can physically keep up with anymore , um , you could become an inspector , or you can , uh , move into something like a robotic welding or , um , running , like machines and stuff like that where you're not directly holding the torch , but you're more supervising a , uh , or equipment. So you're still welding. It still takes the experience of a welder , but it doesn't have as many health risks or as much physical labor required.
S1: Let's talk about attitudes around trade professions in general.
S2: So , um , but I also remember growing up like a lot of people were kind of like , oh , you're not going to be successful. Like , you should go to college. Just saying , like , oh , that's like a like lower intelligence job. And I don't think that's true at all.
S1: We're trades ever presented to you as a career path while you were in high school ? No.
S2: In fact , actually , they took pretty much every one of those programs out. The only thing that was really available to us was a club. It was something I was a part of , is the first robotics competition where we would design and build a robot from scratch , and that was really the only thing even close to manufacturing and trades. We had , um , at our school , everything else was Stem or college preparation or something like that.
S1:
S4:
S2: Surely , I'm very fortunate to have had help from my family , but coming out of trade school , um , and getting a job in the field will help enormously as well. Um , I'll be making enough to actually cover my base costs. Finally , in addition to having extra that I can put towards those loans and put towards other things I want and enjoy in life.
S1: Yeah , the want and enjoy part. Yeah. Super important.
S2: Uh , if you want to go the apprenticeship route. That is great. Uh , you get paid while you learn. And generally you're part of a union which brings great protections , labor protections , which , especially in really big companies like these are good things to have. Um , or if you want to do the trade school route , um , unfortunately , most private trade schools tend to be more expensive , but they are generally cheaper than , uh , four year universities. And they will teach you really well how to do your trade and do your craft. Or you can go to the community college route , which in California is free. And , you know , that's the best price , as they say. Um , but absolutely , give it a try. If you're not 100% sure , try and get a job as a helper. Go work in a fab shop. Or , uh , like , talk to some welders and give it a try. See if that's kind of something you're interested in. Don't don't just listen to people telling you this is what you're going to do , and this is how you're going to be successful. Um , if you can try it first.
S1: All right. Good advice. I've been speaking with Jack Finocchiaro , a 24 year old welder , completing his training at San Diego College of Continuing Education. Jack , thank you so much for joining us. And again , congratulations on your upcoming graduation. Absolutely.
S2: Thank you for having me.
S1: Still ahead. The reasons why students are considering trade jobs out of high school.
S5: They understand. I don't necessarily want to take on a lot of student debt , and I am looking for a work life balance. And so when they evaluate those options , they're looking to the trades.
S1: More on that when we return. You're listening to Kpbs Midday Edition. Welcome back to Kpbs Midday Edition. I'm your host , Jade Hindman , and our last segment you heard from Jack Pinocchio. He's a student who switched from a four year college degree program , where he was racking up student loan debt to a free one year trade program in welding , where he expects to make as much or more money than had he pursued a bachelor's degree. Other students are making the same decision to. Enrollment in vocational focused community colleges rose 16% last year , according to the National Student Clearinghouse. Apprenticeship programs are also an option. That's where Shandon Harbor comes in. She's president and CEO of the San Diego chapter of Associated Builders and Contractors. They run an apprenticeship program for construction. Shandon , thanks for being here today. Hi.
S5: Hi. Good afternoon Jade. Thanks for having. Me.
S1: Me. Glad to have you here.
S5: But what we are seeing now is there is a distinct interest. They're asking for the trades. They're asking for apprenticeships to come to their career fairs. The high schools are including trades and the pendulum is always swinging back and forth. And I think there was an era of time where it went really hard and there was not a lot of discussion around trades or vocational trades or vocational programs. And we're seeing the pendulum swing back again , where the trades are being included side by side as options for the students. So I think that is something that we're definitely seeing this trend with this new generation that they're interested. Yeah.
S3: Yeah.
S1: Oh , and it does seem that way that for a couple of generations , you know , I think in high schools they really moved to Stem programs. Right. And sort of phased out the vocational programs. And now we're seeing a shift in that. Absolutely.
S5: Absolutely. In fact , we did a lot of conversation around trades with the the counselors and the high schools and talking to them about it's no longer colleges , a one size fits all for all students. There needs to be options for those that maybe don't see college as their path , and especially with this generation Gen Z in understanding what they've lived through with a pandemic , um , rising housing costs , with student loans and college really being exorbitantly expensive , they're looking and they're very sophisticated. I will say that and that they understand I don't necessarily want to take on a lot of student debt , and I am looking for a work life balance. And so when they evaluate those options , they're looking to the trades. Because a lot of the apprenticeship programs are , um , no debt. It's earned while you learn , you get paid. We we partner with community colleges , so they get some college credit as part of the program. And really it allows and affords them a wonderful work life balance in the sense that at the end of the day , if that's , you know , 3:34 p.m. whatever , they can go off and coach their child's soccer team. So I think there's a lot to be said that the trades offer , as well as , you know , full medical , dental and all of the benefits that come with a bona fide career. Yeah.
S3: I mean.
S1: Talk more about the return on investment with trade careers. I mean , you know , can you give us a sense of what kinds of wages folks can expect in these jobs ? Absolutely.
S5: That's one of the the quick talking points that we usually talk to the students in high school. They always want to say , well , what kind of money can you make ? And to start , you can be looking at , you know , $20 an hour. That's just your base rate of pay you are earning on the job while you're learning. And then there's zero student debt. It's totally paid for. So there's no cost to attend an apprenticeship program. So they'll be graduating no cost. Um , just to kind of put it in perspective , a lot of times I see people start the program and they're , you know , driving the cars that are just held together. Uh , you know , you know what I'm talking about. And in four years , they're graduating as a journeyman level. So that's really where they've amplified their pay , and they're making close to 80 , 90,000 , sometimes over 100,000. They're driving very nice cars. And one of the great stories is many of them come back to me and say , I'm buying a house. Now , if you were to ask me if I was ready to buy a house at 24 years old , I could have never done that. But they're buying homes for their family and and they're settling in San Diego here. And so it's remarkable what the trades can really offer. Shannon.
S1: Shannon. There is also a skilled labor shortage that's driving the need for young folks , or just anyone really , to enter trades.
S5: Um , because the infrastructure has been sort of not the focus , let's say , for many years. And so there is a tremendous need for infrastructure updating and upgrading across the United States. So you've got all of these requirements for construction. And then just as we started off this conversation , Jade , we noticed that there were decades where we weren't recruiting to the trades. So there's a big gap there. And then the baby boomers are all retiring. So we've got the largest population retiring from our construction jobs. And you put all of that together and you you have this shortage. And so it's really wonderful to see this generation answering the call because there are jobs available. We just posted , uh , ABC on our national website posted that , uh , April , there was 24,000 more jobs that were required for construction. So following all of our , uh , construction backlog indicators and all the stats that we bring in on what the skilled numbers are versus jobs , you can see that the requirements for what we need to fill continue to increase.
S1: Well , and I want to bring in to the conversation Amrita Herman , she's dean of career education and workforce development at the San Diego Community Colleges district. Amrita , welcome. Hi.
S6: Thanks for having me.
S1: So glad to have you here. Um , so we're hearing about Gen Zers moving away from four year colleges to pursue trade careers. You all have a lot of programs for that. Tell me more about how community colleges fit in. Thanks.
S6: Thanks. Yeah , community colleges play a really unique role when it comes to workforce development and meeting students career needs. Um , in the post-secondary space , we partner with a variety of folks to really ensure that we're offering career education programs that are aligned with employer needs , high wage , high demand , priority sectors. Um , we're community focused. That's the community and community college. So we provide the full , robust set of services , wraparound services , everything you can think of at a regular institution , if you will. Um , but we also focus on careers. You know.
S1: We're seeing different demographics of students gravitate towards career and technical education programs. What does that look like in San Diego ? Yeah.
S6: So , um , there's definitely a national trend for younger folks really talking about wanting to make money right away , wanting to use their hands and wanting to tend to go towards the trades. Um , however , in our data right now , um , we don't see a large uptick in actual enrollments of this age population. We do serve a lot of Gen Z students. It's just remained pretty consistent over the past 4 to 5 years. Um , and they're very important to us. We focus on them. We want to meet their needs , and their needs are unique , um , compared to other student populations , for sure. But we're not seeing that big increase that a lot of the nation is talking about. However we hear about it. And I think this is a really interesting point when we talk about interest , which was mentioned earlier , um , versus access and understanding and a community college , when we partner with our K-12 partners in particular , um , when we talk about this younger group of students , it's really important that we focus on that early understanding of career and college.
S1: She's dean of career education and workforce development for the San Diego Community Colleges district. We've mostly been focusing on trade professions in San Diego County , but we now head over to Imperial Valley , where there is a rapidly growing industry attracting young workers , and that is lithium extraction. We want to welcome to the conversation Efrain Silva. He's dean of economic and workforce development at Imperial Valley College. Efrain , welcome.
S7: Thank you so much for inviting me.
S1: Well , I'm so glad to have you here with us.
S7: That's exciting for us. Uh , we did an inventory of those jobs , and and we found that in many cases , we already trained for some of those. So these companies are going to be hiring a lot of the traits that were mentioned earlier , uh , welding , uh , electrical and so on. But we did identify three major gaps , uh , in terms of training that needed to be addressed and aligned with this incoming industry. So out of those conversations , we have developed three new lithium related programs. Um , we're very excited to have those kinds of partnership with our local industry and the excitement in the county , uh , in our students and , you know , looking into the future and seeing themselves with a good paying wage , good paying job , um , uh , and so on , and really a life of self-sufficiency.
S1: Well defined , good wages for me.
S7: So the range that I've been given is somewhere between 30 to $50 per hour.
S1: Well , Efrain , let me ask you this , uh , Imperial County has one of the highest unemployment rates in California.
S7: We don't I don't believe that lithium , uh , extraction alone would , would , uh , have that huge impact that we're we're both , uh , we , all of us wanting to see in the Imperial Valley. Uh , I think the projection within direct lithium jobs , uh , at full production , is a little over a thousand jobs , which is significant for us , but it's not , uh , the the answer to all of this , but there are , uh , battery manufacturers that are looking to locate and build actually , the actual batteries here in the Imperial Valley that is going to bring additional , uh , jobs , perhaps in the thousands of jobs also , uh , ancillary operations that support , uh , hopefully that improves the economy as the economy improves , the old economics multiplier effect together. I think it's going to take all of us to , uh , to make this work in a way that it will have a significant impact in our local economy and the opportunities for our residents.
S1:
S7: It was very interesting to to hear the comments earlier. So , um , just to give you an example of of the interest for our young people to come to school and , and leave early , right ? Graduate early , get their certificates early , get their industry certifications early. We tried a new concept a few years ago where we took , uh , a our traditional welding program that in the past took two years to complete. Uh , and , uh , we wanted to make to fast track that or accelerated learning model. So as our students , uh , uh , found out about the fast track model , our enrollment doubled. Uh , we had to cap the class at 44 students. And because there just there was no more room. So. And this same model that we use in welding and and , uh , guaranteeing students a one year certificate has now been used in other trades like our air conditioning program and our construction program and our automotive program. And we're just seeing a growth and enrollment like we had not seen before , uh , because students are assured that they will be able to complete their entire certificate in one year time , uh , instead of the traditional two year cycle for community colleges.
S1: And moving beyond that one size fits all approach for four year degrees and college in general.
S6: Um , that is just not the reality with the students we serve , regardless of age. Uh , we serve very complex students , um , that bring a variety of identities that they prioritize over being a traditional student. And yet they want to go to school and they want to learn and they want to get applied , uh , knowledge that they can really use and work with. And they need money to live in this area. Um , and , um , we need to provide services that really consider that whole complex student , um , we need part time , uh , tracks that allow short term flexible programs , um , that have on and off ramps that are tied to hands on work experience. That really gives them a chance to test and learn things and build networks , build employer networks.
S1: Yeah , yeah. Well , Shannon , do you have anything to add there ? Absolutely.
S5: So one of the things that is wonderful about the trades and the certification process , apprenticeship and journeymen , is that it's a universal and it's reciprocity across all 50 states. So if I were to go to school and get a teaching credential in Colorado and I were to move to California , that teaching credential is not recognized in California , nor is lawyers and some of these other professional degrees. You get a degree or you get a apprenticeship certificate in the trades. It's , uh , it's reciprocity is across the United States. You can go anywhere. And this generation of Gen Z is very transient. So that's one element. The other part was that in the trades , you know , uh , when they're going through and learning these things , a lot of times employers are looking for people with experience. And when there's plant positions or open like Efrain referred to , they're going to look to those that have been in this experience and pull them for promotions or higher mobility in those positions that are related to the skilled trades. So it's not necessarily that you get into the trades and you stay in that position for the career lifetime. It offers a lot of upward mobility as well for moving up to that generation is looking at it saying , well , let's see , my friends went to college , they got a degree , but it's not useful in these other states. And my friend got a degree and it doesn't qualify him for these or her for these positions. They're this generation's evaluating all those inputs and saying this is a really good path for for me , in the long run. Well , all.
S1: Right , this was a great conversation. I've been speaking with Amartya Perman , dean of career education and workforce development for the San Diego Community Colleges district. Amartya , thank you for joining us. Thank you. Also , Chandan Harbor , president and CEO of the San Diego chapter of Associated Builders and Contractors. Chandan , thank you.
S5: Thank you.
S3: Jade and.
S1: Efrain Silva. He's Dean of career Education and Workforce development for Imperial Valley College. Efrain thank you , thank you.
S7: Thank you. Thanks to everybody.
S1: That's our show for today. Don't forget to watch Evening Edition tonight at five for in-depth reporting on San Diego issues. We'll be back tomorrow at noon. And if you ever miss a show , you can find the Midday Edition podcast on all platforms. I'm Jade Hindman. Thanks for listening.
