S1: Welcome in San Diego , it's Jade Hindman. On today's show , we're talking about the places we go to connect , socialize and just be there. Better known as third places. We'll explore the benefits. This is Midday Edition , connecting our communities through conversation. You have your first place home , then you have your second place work. And if you're lucky , you also have a third place. It's a spot that offers you something else entirely. Maybe it's a chance to connect with community , or engage with a hobby , or passion , or a place to just be. Think coffee shops , restaurants , bars and gyms. It's that home away from home somewhere you go by choice , not obligation. We asked our listeners for their favorite third places here in San Diego. Here's listener Nancy Corrigan.
S2: My third place is dog parks , trails and beaches where my dogs can run free.
S1: And Seth Smith calling from Lemon Grove.
S3: My third place is Elevated Coffee and Confections in Lemon Grove.
S1: For Alex Kim , our chief development officer at KPBS. His third place is a recreational basketball team in southeast San Diego.
S4: And it's something that I look forward to each week. And , you know , I'm grateful to still have the ability to to play this game.
S1: And we got plenty of responses on Reddit , too , like 500 plus comments , a couple of common answers. There were Balboa Park , the San Diego Zoo , mission Bay , Petco Park and the Casbah. One Reddit user wrote that their third place is the medical facility that's helped them through their terminal illness. They write , quote , they make the ugly business of medical treatment palatable and understandable , end quote. So third places can mean all kinds of things and serve all kinds of purposes. They've also changed a lot in recent years. Joining me now to discuss this is Joseph Gibbons , urban sociologist at San Diego State University. Joseph , welcome.
S5: Thank you very much. Happy to be here.
S1: So glad to have you here. Also. Danielle Littman , assistant professor at the University of Utah College of Social Work. Danielle , welcome to you.
S6: Thanks so much. Okay.
S1: Okay. So , Danielle , um , sociologist Ray Oldenburg coined the term third place back in 1989.
S6: And so this coin was really term was really coined to recognize the need for these spaces that offer us meaning and that offer us connection outside of these other areas where we have these defined identities. We are a family member. We are a pet parent , you know , in our first places or in our second places where we work or where we go to school. These third places offer us the opportunity to be somebody , um , somebody else beyond the person that we get to be in our first and second places.
S1:
S5: I mean , third places are in a lot of ways , the anchors for their communities. Um , they are a liberating , free place. So when I am at home , I'm a husband. When I go to school , I'm a professor. But when I go to a third place , I'm just some guy , you know ? And there's something really freeing about that where you don't have the kinds of expectations kind of being laid upon you. Um , it opens me up to have conversations with people I probably wouldn't be able to have otherwise. And I've had all kinds of different encounters. Some good , some bad , but never really not interesting. Right.
S1:
S5: Dog beach. Um , ob dog beach. Yeah. Um , influx coffee shop down the road in Golden Hill , where I live. Top of Coles Mountain. We do that every weekend. So , you know , there's always a big cluster of people who have finished the hike or just taking in the view , and you have all kinds of weird little conversations with people up there , weird little conversations.
S1: You now you have to you have to describe that.
S5: For me , it's boring. So mostly just , um , because we bring our dogs and people say that our dogs are cute and every time we go , we have a basset hound. So is that a basset hound ? I used to have a basset hound. I don't think there's ever been a time we've done that hike where someone hasn't said those kinds of things. I almost want to get a T-shirt printed like , yes , she's a basset hound. Her name is Madeline. She's three years old.
S7: But you find.
S1: That you have something in common with so many people there , so that's good.
S6: Um , you know , and what's interesting , just to add to this conversation or this question of does it have to be social ? Could I be connecting with myself in this place ? One of the reasons that I love Third places is that they offer this opportunity to be sort of alone and sort of connected at the same time , and that sort of flow that can happen between being in your own space. Maybe I'm working at a coffee shop and then striking up a conversation and. Having the opportunity to connect. Um , whether I choose to engage that opportunity , I really , really enjoy. So I'm a big coffee shop person , library person. And I also have dogs. So , um , parks and walking around my neighborhood is , is sort of a third place in and of itself.
S1: And the conversation around this has been happening for a while. I want to talk about Robert Putnam's 2001 book , Bowling Alone , um , which really influenced the conversation around public space. He writes about the vanishing of community spaces as Americans become more disconnected.
S8:
S6: At around the same time that we see Robert Putnam's work taking hold , we also see the increase of technology and the advent of the internet and the increased usage of the internet and technology as ways of connecting. And so I think it's really interesting to notice these trends where Robert Putnam sees us connecting less to public spaces. We are also connecting more to digital spheres and spaces.
S1:
S5: Um , I'm on the discord with my friends from college , my friends from home. Pretty much every day I , I'm on WhatsApp , sending weird memes and news stories to my wife back and forth all day. And believe me , that is a wonderful thing. Uh , one thing that I've seen in my own research , and what colleagues of mine have found as well , is what these kinds of online communities do is , at best , kind of tie in to the existing social connections that were already there. Um , and people have a tendency to seek out those who they already know. And this day and age , with algorithms and other kinds of more and more specific forms of social media , we're getting kind of siloed. A lot more different age groups tend to be on different social media platforms. So the stereotype is your parents have the Facebook account , your older brother. Stop.
S7: Stop.
S5: Your older brother has the Instagram accounts , you have the TikTok account , and your baby cousin has whatever new thing has come out that us old people don't know about yet.
S7:
S5: And it leads to kind of , yeah , a kind of styling off of conversation. So in some ways , all this new technology , there's definitely a massive potential and definitely there's all kinds of conversation happening over it. But the ability to have free and open conversations that you would get in a third place , I don't know , it doesn't seem as there's quite as much opportunity.
S1: I really felt like I was tech savvy and doing something here by being on Facebook. Apparently I've been in siloed spaces.
S7: No , you didn't know.
S1: Okay , well , you know , all of that , though , leads me to to my next question as these virtual all , um , platforms where connections do happen emerge. Um , and then sort of we become more disconnected and our third places disappear a little bit. Um , we're now looking at this epidemic of loneliness and isolation. How does that contribute to the need for these third places ? Danielle.
S6: Well , one of the , um , statistics that I find so interesting is that while in the past several years a lot of types of third places like commercial , um , personal care kinds of third places , those are decreasing. We actually see an increase of some of these civic and social spaces that are more public , more municipally focused , like libraries , community centers. And so I think that the data tell us that we are actually needing these spaces more than ever right now. Um , and further , that those who are already , um , most marginalized in our social spheres are most needing access to these kinds of spaces. And these are folks who would already be impacted more by this , um , epidemic of loneliness. Anyway , thinking about LGBTQ communities , um , disabled communities , um , other kinds of communities that don't necessarily experience a wide , um , accepting society around them all the time. And so I think what we see is that , yes , there are places are decreasing in some accounts , but they're increasing in others , mostly related to those who are , um , whose needs are least met by their first and their second places in society. Um.
S8: Um.
S1: And , you know , Joseph , gentrification is really making , um , many third places vulnerable.
S5: Is the general premise of gentrification is our reinvestment into previously disinvested communities. And so the idea that there is , hey , new coffee shops , new bars , and wow , they look really nice , um , new parks , new opportunities to access these parks , bike lanes. But there is a question over who actually gets to access these spaces. Um , so yes , there's a new coffee shop down the road , but their mocha lattes are $10 now. I might spring for that myself if. But like if you're a typical resident of a low income neighborhood , that's a big investment. Um , and oftentimes the you don't really have to even go into these spaces to get the feeling that they're not for you. You can look outside the signage , the prices on the wall and say , well , this isn't for me. And look at the kinds of customers that are going in. It's like , these aren't the kinds of people I can conversation with , and this can kind of scare people away. So you might have partial third places , but not really ones that reflect the entire community. And obviously there are incidences that have happened at Starbucks , which has long prided itself at being America's third place. That's what Howard Schultz , their CEO , has said many times back six years ago in Philadelphia , when a group of men who were trying to have a meeting at one of the Starbucks were arrested because they used the bathroom first before buying anything. So obviously you have things like that happening.
S1:
S6: I think that unfortunately , um , there is sort of a prevailing sense of NIMBYism , um , that can happen even if it's sort of this reverse NIMBYism , where there's a sense of , you know , now the people gentrifying , folks are moving in and taking over a space. I think that , um , one of the biggest threats to present day third places , as we see them is really our social imagination. Around two belongs in certain places. Um , I think locally I'm in Salt Lake City , um , and lived in Denver recently as well. And these are communities that are really facing , um , housing crises where a lot of unhoused and unsheltered folks are spending time in third places like parks. And there's this big question of , oh , well , yes , this , you know , is a free and accessible space to everyone , but not in that way or not if you're doing that thing. Um , and so one of the things that I've been looking at a lot in my research is really how can we reimagine our social consciousness around third places , um , for them to be much more explicitly inclusive and to actually meet our community members everyday needs , because that is what is is really needed right now. Yeah.
S7: Yeah.
S1: Well , I mean , you know , all of that in mind. I mean , so we've got gentrification and accessibility , we've got social media platforms. Um , something else I want to talk about is the impact of Covid 19. I mean , how has the pandemic changed how we interact in third places ? Danielle. Absolutely.
S6: Absolutely. I think , um , I see multiple interactions at play. One of them is that a lot of folks have gotten less used to going to third places. Maybe they work from home , um , and they don't really need to commute or go other places in their communities. And so in some ways , we kind of had this , um , large social experiment where we saw a lot less usage of certain third places. But then at the same time , I have seen just such a reinvestment in a recognition of the need for third places in our communities. I think even just the fact that we're having this conversation here today , I mean , I've been studying third places for a number of years now , and just in the past year I've had multiple conversations , lines like this one where there's this broad recognition of the need for third places. So I think the optimistic side of me , um , would see this trend , um , that I've noticed just our need for these places to exist in our society , our recognition that we need them , that without them we feel socially isolated and are socially isolated. Yeah.
S8: Yeah.
S1: Well , Joseph , I'd love to get your thoughts on the impact as well.
S5: Oh , absolutely. I completely agree. Um , based on my own research looking at mobility patterns , um , you can see how in early 2020 , all movement towards the kinds of places that would be third places basically just stopped nationwide. And we , we all , everyone , we all got to see what it felt like to be have these kinds of places taken away from us and the feeling of isolation and loneliness that came from that. Based on my own local third places , several of the places I used to love are no longer so in Golden Hill , my neighborhood. I could tell it closed several years ago. That's one of the reasons I moved to that neighborhood , because I loved that place so much. Um , and that was such a wonderful place. Um , and many other third places that I would have gone to have cut their hours back. So that influx , the coffee shop I mentioned before , cut their hours from 6 p.m. to 2 p.m. because just , you know , they weren't getting enough people and just not being able to stay there longer , not having that much opportunity obviously impacted it as well. And we've seen like all kinds of bars , all kinds of places close. But you know , Danielle is absolutely right that we are seeing new things open. And I absolutely want to be , you know , the optimist as well , saying I hope this works out. And there's definitely , absolutely an appetite for talking to people. We saw what happens when we don't have these places. We didn't like it and now we really want it back. I guess the question now is how accessible will these new places be ? Will they be available to everyone ? And that's hard to say.
S1: Well , and Danielle , your research looks at the unique benefit third places can bring to marginalized groups. Specifically. Tell me more about that. Absolutely.
S6: Absolutely. Um , one of the really interesting things that I have looked at , kind of deepening of the theory of third places in my work , is looking beyond some of the social and emotional benefits of third places to thinking about some of the needs , the other kinds of needs that are being met in these places. Um , I really love the sociologist Eric Kleinberg , his work on social infrastructure and in his , um , book palaces for the people. He talks about how in crisis events like natural disasters , communities who had access to social infrastructure , like a community center to go to , for example , in , uh , heat waves or in cold weather events , fare much better than communities of the same sociodemographic factors that don't have access to social infrastructure like third places. And so they can quite literally save our lives. And that's an extreme example. Um , but I bring that about to recognize the importance of these spaces , not just in meeting our social needs , but also in meeting our physical needs to , um , and a lot of my research has been partnering with young people in Colorado who have histories of housing instability and homelessness. And what I found in that research is that young people who have these experiences of homelessness are really looking for third places that are going to meet their everyday needs , that have things like free amenities , um , such as food or a place to lay down for a little while and take a nap. Um , and that they have the opportunity to be adaptable and to be individualized to somebody needs. So thinking about , for example , um , modular furniture in a library where you could go sit on your own and read a book , or you could bring a bunch of chairs together or couches together and have a community meeting. These are the kinds of third places that young people are seeking. And finally , something that I heard over and over again from the young people that I partnered with in my research , is that Oldenburg and Bryson ideas of these neutral places where the power dynamics of everyday life sort of are suspended. But this isn't completely possible in the current world that we live in , and instead we need to explicitly include those who might or might not know whether they will feel comfortable or affirmed in a place.
S1:
S5: So libraries , YMCAs , I mean , the public parks , um , dog parks , any place where you can kind of just go and not be scrutinized. Um , again , these can happen anywhere. But just the thing is , they need to happen somewhere.
S1: I've been speaking with Joseph Gibbons , urban sociologist at San Diego State University. Joseph , thank you.
S5: Thank you so much.
S1: Also , Danielle Littman , assistant professor at the University of Utah College of Social Work. Danielle , thank you for joining us.
S6: Thanks so much for having me.
S1: As we continue our conversation on third places. Here's a couple more from our staff here at KPBS. Daniel Cardenas , our director of diversity and inclusion , says his third place is his neighbor's front yard. He's transformed it into a community garden.
S9: And now in the afternoons during sunset and usually on weekend mornings. Neighbors gather at Mike's to laugh and to eat fresh nappies off the vine , and everyone walks away from these gatherings with a bag of produce and a full heart.
S1: Our director of grants and engagement , Tricia Richter , says hers is the writing stables where she keeps her horse.
S10: It is definitely a community. There's people that have been there as long as I have 15 years now , and it's definitely my third space and my therapy , if you will.
S7: All right.
S1: And after the break , we'll hear more from someone working to share his third place , which is the ocean , with kids who might not otherwise have access.
S11: For me , having the kids in our program understand that the beach is for them and this beach could be a third place for them. Is is just really important to pass on.
S1: KPBS Midday Edition is back after the break. Welcome back to KPBS midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman. Today on the show , we're talking about the value of third places in San Diego and beyond. We asked our listeners to send us their favorite third places , and one place we kept hearing about was , not surprisingly , the ocean. One person who can relate is Mario Ordonez Calderon. He's co-founder and executive director of Unmarred colors. The nonprofit provides surf therapy and environmental education. Midday edition producer Andrew Bracken caught up with Mario earlier this week. He asked Mario how he defines a third place.
S11: For me , a third place has to feel safe and it's got to call you back , right ? It's got to feel like a place that's welcoming and replenishing. And I think the ocean and the beach provides that for me and a lot of people here in San Diego County.
S12:
S11: Just being in the mother's room and the ocean and the coast provide that sense of comfort and that sense of embrace for a lot of people. It's also exciting to , you know , the coastline is where land ends and then water begins. And it's not necessarily necessarily a boundary , but it's essentially like the start of exploration for a lot of people. So you can kind of dream as you look off into the into the coastline.
S12:
S11: I was a little bit landlocked , and I wasn't really called to the ocean until I was an adult. I served five years in the Navy , was stationed on Camp Pendleton as a medic corpsman. And that's when I picked up the love for surfing. I took a my best friend to invite me into the water , and boy , did I get worked. The first couple of times I tried to surf.
S12: Oh , I'm with you there. Yeah , same. Same with me. I remember one friend taking him out surfing for the first time , and he described it as like being in a boxing match , and that's. You know what I mean ? It's like a the first couple times can get you can can hit pretty hard , right ? Yeah. Exactly.
S11: Exactly. Like the ocean can be super welcoming some days. And then other days , you know , it's just you're in the what's it called the , the washing machine I guess.
S12: Yeah , absolutely.
S11: But something always kept calling me back I think learn in learning how to surf just my , my it's strengthened my connection to the coastline. And then it brought me community. It brought me friends. It brought me job opportunities. So yeah , I really just honed in on that , on that connection.
S12: And this leads to your nonprofit on Mars. It's about getting kids out on the water through surfing. Where did you get the idea for that vision and why is that so important ? Do you think.
S11: So ? The idea of Unmarred colors came to me in a reflection of the privilege that I had learning to surf , connecting with the water , and then recognizing that there was young children in the neighborhood that I was living in that came from similar backgrounds like myself , first generation immigrant family households that weren't necessarily enjoying the coastline the same way , or recreating along the natural resources the same way , uh , enjoying the blue spaces and all the healing that comes from those spaces. So I wanted to start a program that would serve as a bridge or essentially like a path for those families. So it was really in reflection of , of like my , my privilege as a surfer and everything that it brought to me and wanting to share that with other students from similar backgrounds.
S12: So it sounds like you're introducing your third place to the kids you serve here , and it's a space they might not otherwise have access to.
S11: So we're essentially a critical part of them , even connecting to a third space like the beach. And for a lot of these families , they feel as if , whether it be social or cultural , that the ocean isn't necessarily for them. It might be intimidating. They might not have the resources , resources to to enjoy it. And what we're doing is we're trying to bridge all those , those gaps in that relationship for these for these families and for those students , for them to find a place that they can call their own third place.
S12: And as we're speaking , you were actually in Sacramento working on trying to increase coastal access for those communities. We were talking about. Can you talk about your efforts there.
S11: As an organization ? We're up here in Sacramento advocating for certain bills that would create easier access points for for our organization to conduct our , our programming on the beach , because just like the communities we serve as an organization when. Laws faces inequitable permitting issues. To conduct any programming on a state or city beach is just. There's a myriad of red tape that exists. So we're up here. We're advocating for a couple of bills , AB 2038 being one of them. That would essentially create an an easier access point for nonprofits to conduct their programming on beaches.
S12: Went through line through all these third spaces we've been talking about is community. Um , and whether you know everyone around you or not , you're part of this unique group. Does it feel that way on the water to.
S11: Yeah , essentially when you when you go and you and you learn to surf , you enter this global community. Right. Because this is a skill that you're learning that you could take anywhere with you. And for the most part , you understand. You understand the respect and the lineup and the people and the surfing and the wave , and it just allows you to create some sort of relationship with with the stranger who you might not know. So you're entering this global community. So I think that's what we're really trying to do within us is create that , that community connection from a familial standpoint within like our students , our our parents , our caretakers , but then also to opening that world up for that larger global community of surfers to them.
S12:
S11: So for me , having the kids in our program understand that the beach is for them and this beach could be a third place for them. Is is just really important to pass on.
S12: And finally , you talked about , you know , the importance of increasing this access to the coast. And I think when it comes to surfing specifically , it can be still intimidating to start out.
S11: But the most important thing is essentially to know that you're safe out there. Know the lineup , know what wave you're going to. Right ? Because you don't want to go to a big professional wave , um , as an , as a novice surfer , but also to all those considerations aside , is knowing that it's okay to fumble and it's okay to fall like that's a part of the learning process and that the ocean is for you , and that if you want to try surfing , then you most definitely should. Um , but that that's my advice right there for anyone who's going to try and definitely do it in the summer when the water is a little warmer and you can chunk it.
S1: That was Midday Edition producer Andrew Bracken speaking with Mario Ordonez Calderon. He is co-founder and executive director of Unmarred colors. The nonprofit provides surf therapy and environmental education. That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
