Roundtable: Accountability And Justice In Policing

Speaker 1: 00:00 A guilty verdict in the trial surrounding the death of George Floyd. Why many are calling it accountability, but not justice local reaction to the verdict on the streets of downtown San Diego? How this case is part of the larger push for racial equity in policing and how will San Diego spend more than $4 billion in the year head mayor Todd, Gloria outlines his priorities for the city. I'm Claire triglyceride and the KCBS round table starts now. Speaker 2: 00:40 [inaudible] Speaker 1: 00:42 Hello and welcome to our discussion of the week's top stories. I'm Claire Tresor joining me on this remote edition of the KPBS round table are Jade Heideman cohost of KPBS midday edition, Christina Kim race and equity reporter for KPBS and KPBS. Metro reporter Andrew Bowen, former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chovan is now an inmate in a Minnesota jail cell waiting to be sentenced for the murder of George Floyd. The jury's verdict this week is seen as a potential turning point in how America deals with race and policing for nearly a year. Those issues have been at the forefront of our national conversation, even during a historic pandemic. Our guest to talk about it is KPBS midday edition, cohost Jane Heideman. Hello, Jade. Hi Claire. So there was a lot of tension during this trial and how it would end even president Joe Biden said he was hoping for quote the right verdict. Was this a result of justice being denied so many times in the past, do you think? Speaker 3: 01:49 Uh, I think it was, you know, there are countless cases in every town across this country where there's been a Derrick Shovan and a George Floyd, but, you know, beyond that, the evidence in this case was overwhelming. Uh, people across the globe saw the video of how Shovan murdered Floyd. And so while Shovan was on trial, so it was the entire justice system. Uh, and the world was watching to see if the system was capable of holding an officer accountable and ultimately a valuing black line, Speaker 1: 02:21 Right. And then vice president Kamala Harris. Who's the first African-American woman to hold that position, spoke with president Biden from the white house after the verdict. And here's a bit of what she had to say. Speaker 2: 02:35 Here's the truth about racial injustice. It is not just a black America problem or a people of color problem. It is a problem for every American. Speaker 1: 02:49 And now we know the Biden administration supports passage of the George Floyd justice in policing act. That's currently moving through Congress. Can you tell us a bit what it would do? Speaker 3: 03:01 So this legislation is really an attempt to chip away at that systemic racism she's talking about, uh, within the justice system and also misconduct among law enforcement officers. Uh, the act would, would ban choke holds and, uh, and qualified immunity for law enforcement, uh, which is the legal shield for, for officers that prevents them from being sued by victims for misconduct. Uh, it would also band no knock warrants in federal drug cases. You'll remember it was a no knock warrant that led to the fatal shooting of 26 year old Brianna Taylor and by police last year in Louisville, Kentucky, uh, the act would also mandate data collection on police encounters and create a nationwide, uh, police misconduct registry to help hold problematic officers accountable. Speaker 1: 03:49 And those are several things that people have been asking for for a long time and following the verdict, many supporters of the Floyd family called this accountability, but not justice. Why do you think this distinction is so important? Speaker 3: 04:05 Uh, it's important because, uh, this is accountability for one officer. There are thousands and thousands of cases out there just like it. Similar circumstances and cases right here in San Diego where no officer was held accountable. And when we look at the case with ex-police officer Derek, Shovan, we have to consider everything it took for accountability to happen in a news conference before charges were filed, that happened County attorney, Mike Freeman, who would have typically handled the case, said there's other evidence that does not support a criminal charge. Um, even the initial press release put out by the Minneapolis police department described Floyd's death as a medical emergency. Uh, even though there were dozens of witnesses there who saw what happened in broad daylight, um, ultimately the governor had to step in and move the case up to the attorney general in order for there to be what many felt would be competent prosecution of the case. So there had to be video evidence and the critical eyes of the world on Minneapolis during a pandemic where no one could look away, officers had to cross the blue line and testify against Shovan so much had to happen in order for a system prepared to shield Shovan from accountability to actually hold him accountable and fixing that across the country is justice. And more specifically for the Floyd family, having George's daughter grow up with her father would be justice, but that justice will sadly forever be denied. Speaker 1: 05:35 And so then the concern is in so many other individual law enforcement agencies, there won't be this perfect storm of events to hold other officers accountable for, for doing similar things. Exactly. Now I know you and KPBS mid-day edition have closely followed this case. Is there an interview or a segment that you've done that was memorable to you? Speaker 3: 06:00 I interviewed Starla Lewis, um, who is a professor and life coach about the impact and trauma George Floyd's death caused, and then how retraumatizing it was for people to see what happened over and over again during the trial. And she said, you know, while it was traumatizing, it, it opened old wounds. For many people, who've lived through police brutality and over-policing in their community. They've been the target of mass incarceration. They've experienced the domestic terrorism of Jim Crow witnessed lynchings, and the list goes on and on. But for many of her students who grew up in the era of seeing the first black president Barack Obama, they'd been taught that we lived in a post racial society, and then they witnessed George Floyd's murder. And she said, the students just weren't ready for the reality that this country has not yet overcome racism or systemic race. Speaker 1: 06:54 Awesome. And, you know, among those who have had to watch this over and over again, are our journalists who have been covering the case. Um, I know you're involved with the national association of black journalists. So what have you heard from colleagues about the challenges in covering or even just following this story and it's graphic details? Speaker 3: 07:15 Well, you know, it was tougher for so many black journalists, but, um, that's the way it's always been, uh, when covering these cases, this isn't the first case. And you know, this is, this is one of those things where you've, you've got to, you're forced to sort of walk into a newsroom and separate who you are from the story. And that's a tough thing to do. Um, I know a lot of news organizations across the country and a lot of journalists have taken issue with the fact that, uh, news organizations mandate that journalists not say black lives matter. A lot of news organizations argue and say that that's a political statement. Um, and that it's, it's an opinion even. And so, uh, it's not an opinion whether or not black lives matter matter whether or not they're the affirmation that my life is meaningful and matters. Speaker 3: 08:08 Um, that's not an opinion. Um, it never was, and it never will be. And so for black journalists to have to walk into newsrooms and separate themselves from, uh, this issue of systemic racism that exists within the system, uh, it's been tough. And then it's been traumatizing to see so many deaths happen back to back. I mean, um, and when, when George Floyd died, there were several other cases that happen just prior to that. Ahmad, our Berry happened at Brianna Taylor's death happened, um, and it's ha it happened over and over and over again. So it's been traumatizing. It's been exhausting to tell the stories, but it is, um, an affirmation of how important the work is that so many journalists do. Speaker 1: 08:58 Yeah. And I mean, we, me personally, and we as a newsroom really appreciate the work that you've done and others have done. Is there anything else you wanted to share about how you reacted to this case and its verdict? Speaker 3: 09:13 I, I was relieved both relieved and frustrated at the verdict and the entire case, because it was really a reminder of how much work there is to do. Uh, I reflected back on all that it took to hold one officer accountable and, and I was frustrated because change still won't happen immediately. Even though people are dying, change won't happen immediately. And next week we could be covering another case just like this. So the trauma continues. Um, and, and so does the very important one Speaker 1: 09:44 And a note to our listeners a mid day edition did a special episode this week on the verdict. And you can hear it on the KPBS mid-day edition podcast. I've been speaking with cohost Jade Heideman thank you, Jade. Thank you. Claire San Diego is in the middle of its own debate over policing and how much money should be going to its department. We'll have more on that a bit later. Right now. We want to talk about how our community is processing the story and local discussions around social justice. For that we welcome Christina Kim to the round table for the first time she covers race and equity, a new beat here at KPBS news. Hello, Christina, and welcome. Hey Claire. Nice to be here. Well, thanks for being here. So Tuesday night you were in downtown San Diego after the Derrick Chovan verdict was released. What were some of the messages you heard from those who were demonstrating? Speaker 4: 10:42 Yeah, so the message that I kept on hearing from folks was that when they heard the verdict that Derek Shovan was being convicted, guilty of murder, they felt a real sense of relief almost then followed by sadness, followed really quickly by sadness, because it was like this expectation that it wouldn't go this way, that he wouldn't be, uh, found guilty. And so there was this moment of like a sigh of relief, but then as, as somebody that I spoke to said so eloquently, they were just filled with this sadness because they realized again that they didn't feel like the system was actually set up to provide any sense of justice. And that's something else that I heard. You know, I think that there was kind of a mainstream media was portraying this as a celebration as justice having finally been met out. But the folks that I talked to on the street time and time again, kept on telling me that the verdict wasn't about justice, it was about accountability. Speaker 1: 11:41 Right. And, and that's something that we've heard. We asked this question to KPBS midday edition, cohost, Jade Heideman. And she said the same thing. So why do you think that was important to demonstrators that you talk to? Yeah. Speaker 4: 11:56 To a demonstrator who actually is part of the unity runners. Her name is Alicia Crawford. And when I asked her, so what does justice look like for you? What does that really mean? She said that justice would be for black and Brown people to be able to walk outside of their homes or even be in their own homes and feel like they're safe, that they can live full, happy lives and be treated equitably by the police and other people. And so I feel like what that gets at is this is one verdict, but it doesn't change the way that black and Brown people are living their lives. And that's what justice is going to look like when there's an actual societal change that people feel in their lives. Speaker 1: 12:37 So you are KPBS dedicated reporter focusing on race and equity and equity is a word that's grown in everyday use, especially in recent years. But how would you define equity? Speaker 4: 12:51 I'm so glad you're asking this because I feel like when you're the racial justice and social equity reporter, so much of the questions I get are, what does this mean? Because I think as we're moving in to this kind of new age where we're, we're all trying to find a common language. And so we're using words like justice and equity, and I think everybody has different definitions. And so I will answer your question, but I am excited to hear this because I think one of the things that I want to do in this beat is create almost a dictionary so that we can all get on the same page. So we know what we mean when Speaker 1: 13:26 We're saying what we're saying. Equity is Speaker 4: 13:28 About having equal opportunities and also equal treatment by different institutions. I think where there's a big of a difference between equality and equity. And you've probably seen these kinds of cartoons that get shared equality is when you give, you know, a group of people, the same amount of, of a good. So in the illustrations, it's like three kids. And they're trying to look over a fence to see a baseball game, and they're all given a box of the same size. And so if the kid a is taller than kids, see for whatever reason, and they're given the same size box kid, a can definitely see the baseball game and enjoy his afternoon, but kids see that's not going to cut it. They're not going to be able to see over their fence. They're not going to have that opportunity. When we talk about equity, it's about recognizing where people are at and understanding the systemic inequalities that have led to very different life, outcomes and opportunities. And so in that instance, in equity, it's like looking at kids, see and saying, Hey, you're not as tall. We're going to give you a little bit of a bigger box so that you can see the game. And so getting back to that equity is about really looking at the context of a situation and addressing systemic inequities in order to create solutions that address those and that are meeting people where they are. And this equity Speaker 1: 14:52 Issue goes beyond just policing and violence. For example, you covered a story this week on the city of San Diego, expanding free wifi access. So how does equity figure into these seemingly routine aspects Speaker 4: 15:06 It's of our lives? Yeah, that's right. So earlier this week, mayor Todd Gloria announced that he's expanding the city's wifi program, which allows a public libraries to have over 900 hotspots where people can actually check out little wifi hotspots and take them home. And this is an equity issue because there are thousands of San Diegans that don't have access to high speed broadband. And as we saw during the pandemic, we really rely on our internet to do our schooling, to work and to stay connected. And it's hard for people who have, you know, fast wifi at their homes and have been working and, and doing their school to imagine what it's like to go to school, go to remote school, apply for a job, pay for your bills, or even apply for the city and County and state several programs that have tried to help people out with rent rental assistance. So when you don't have access to just very basic things like wifi, that's already putting you back and it's making it so hard for you to just live your daily life. So that's an equity, Speaker 1: 16:09 The issue. And as you mentioned with the pandemic that has brought more of these issues to the surface, so do you think they will get more attention in the coming year going forward? Speaker 4: 16:20 Yeah, I mean, I think the pandemic has just made us see the deep inequities that we've been living with in a society for a really long time. So I do think, you know, based on the pandemic, also the renewed calls for racial justice that began last summer, that we are going to see a greater attention placed to racial justice and also to equity. I think that it's hard to look away from the gaps that we're seeing. I think we're going to be focusing on, you know, the education gap who was able to attend those online classes, who wasn't, what does that mean in terms of where students are at? I think we're going to see it once, you know, once the, some of these pandemic programs start to lift up when the eviction moratorium goes away, who's, who's gonna, who's going to bear the brunt of the potential eviction, avalanche that so many advocates have been predicting. So yeah, I think that we're gonna definitely be paying attention and it's going to be interesting to see how our government and institutions really address the ongoing inequities. Speaker 1: 17:22 And how should people get in touch with you if they have ideas for you for what to cover? Speaker 4: 17:27 Yes. Well, I'm always available at my email. C H K I m@kpbs.org. And I'm also always, always, always open for DMS or tweets. I'm at Christina Kim eight Speaker 1: 17:41 Three zero. All right. Well, I've been speaking with Christina Kim race and equity reporter for KPBS. Thank you, Christina. Thank you so much for a city. Largely built on tourism and hospitality. The economic downturn caused by the COVID-19 pandemic, nearly derailed mayor Todd Gloria's agenda before it even started, but now it help from the federal government is allowing the city to move forward without huge cuts. That's evident in the spending plan, mayor Gloria delivered to the city council this week detailing his priorities for his first year in office here to break it down is KPBS Metro reporter, Andrew Bowen. Hello, Andrew. Hi Claire, to start just how much money are we talking about here and what does it take to run all the departments and services that make up San Diego's budget? Speaker 5: 18:32 The mayor's proposed budget is $4.6 billion. It's larger than last year's last year's budget shrank, uh, for obvious reasons because of the pandemic, but this year we're back actually above the budget before the pandemic started. So things are definitely recovering, as you mentioned, largely thanks to the federal government and the budget is broken down into different funds. The general fund is the largest and that pays for services like police, fire, libraries, parks, et cetera. It's a very complicated budget. It's always more than 1500 pages and there's a lot to dig into and there are plenty of stories just waiting to be told. Speaker 1: 19:10 Yeah, definitely. And you mentioned policing. I know last year's budget was heavily criticized for increasing police funding and more attention has been on policing obviously this week. And there's been some criticism to mayor Gloria's plan to boost the police budget, but his staff have pushed back saying it's largely due to pension obligations. So what's the conflict. And why is this a point of contention? Speaker 5: 19:35 Well, if we think back to last spring and summer, the city council vote to approve the budget came only two weeks after George Floyd was murdered. Uh, this, you know, wave of protest, this big movement against police violence and racially biased policing really seized on the San Diego police department budget as an issue to organize around. And there was, there were 10 hours of public testimony in that meeting. Um, the vast majority of it calls to cut the police budget. That didn't happen as you acknowledged, um, the police budget to go up last year. And the explanation, even from some sympathetic council members, what that was that it was just too late in the game to change anything. And a lot of these things are out of our control. Here we are almost a year later, activists still wanting to see cuts to the budget and how this new mayor a Democrat will differ in his approach to policing from his predecessor, a Republican. Speaker 5: 20:27 Uh, and we see the result is a $19 million increase to the police budget. Now, as you say, the mayor's office says this increases mostly due to pension obligations, which the city is legally required to pay. They're also budgeting for salary increases for all city staffers, including the police. It remains to be where in, in this police budget could money be cut. The mayor is proposing about $4 million in cuts to the overtime budget and reshuffling some of that money to fund the priorities of people who want to see the police budget go down. Uh, but so far, I don't think that there'll be satisfied with that. Speaker 1: 21:04 And I know that overtime spending is something that, that you have covered in the past. And it seems like maybe that's one way to satisfy activists who are asking for a decrease in funding, but again, it's still this big increase overall. And now the council is largely democratic and politically aligned in most respects with mayor Gloria. So is the police issue likely to get resolved or do you think this could actually slow down the budget approval process? Speaker 5: 21:32 I don't think that we've gotten to the point in this whole discourse around funding for police or defunding police where we know exactly what these hypothetical cuts to the police budget would mean for service levels. So would we have to lay off officers or civilian staff in the department, would, would that impact response times to nine one, one calls or other calls for service? How would it potentially impact clearance rates? You know, the department's ability to actually solve crimes and find, um, people who, who have committed them. I hope that the discourse gets there and we're able to really have a more honest and nuanced conversation about police spending and what our values are, what we can ask the police to do and what we can't and the trade offs that people can live with. If we cut police spending, I also hope that the council and that every day, San Diego will just learn a lot more about the police budget, which can be very opaque. And, uh, I certainly plan on doing more reporting, uh, to help them move that conversation. Right. Speaker 1: 22:32 Well, good. I'm glad you're planning on doing that. And we'll look forward to that. There are other city services, everything from libraries to filling potholes that are also part of the budget. So is there anything maybe under the radar that got your attention as an emerging priority? This time? Speaker 5: 22:50 One thing I was watching closely was how, or whether Gloria would budget for raises for city employees, the unions that represent the city workers say that they're long overdue for, for raises. Um, the city they say is still in a situation where it's kind of a training ground. People come here when they're, you know, maybe fresh in their careers and then get some experience and move on to other cities. The city then just loses that talent. Gloria is budgeting about, uh, more than $20 million for those raises. However, the labor negotiations with those unions are still ongoing. So we don't know which employees will get a cost of living adjustment, um, how much those will be, how many years into the future they'll budget for those will any employees potentially be left out. So that's another thing that's kind of just the, uh, awkward timing is the mayor has to budget for something that he doesn't know the full cost of. Yet. Speaker 1: 23:38 What about reductions in service? Is there anything in particular looking to be scaled back? The biggest that Speaker 5: 23:46 People will notice is libraries. Uh, the mayor's proposing closing libraries on Sundays and Mondays. Um, there would even be layoffs in the library department and he says that this is really just what's necessary to balance the, uh, one of the things that's necessary to balance these chronic deficits that we saw almost every year under the, um, Kevin Faulkner administration. Uh, he's also saying he's balancing these cuts to, um, physical, you know, library hours with more virtual programming, more digital materials that people can check out online. Um, but we've already heard pushback from the public, uh, this week when he was presenting his budget to the council, you know, maybe that'll work on under Faulkner. We would often see the mayor proposed cuts in the original budget proposal. Then there would be pushback from the council and the public, and then, um, things end up getting restored in the may revise. So we'll have to wait and see whether this is something that sticks. Speaker 1: 24:37 Okay. And then as we talked about, residents will get a chance to weigh in on this year's proposed budget. So when is the public comment period and how long until the city council needs to take action, Speaker 5: 24:51 The next opportunities for the public to listen in and learn more about the budget will be the first week of may from May 5th to May 11th, the city council will be going through the budget department by department into greater detail. Many city council offices are also developing their own budget town halls, where there's kind of a presentation about what's in the budget. They can learn more and provide their feedback to their council member. The mayor then presents a revised budget in later, uh, sort of mid may. And then in mid June is when the final vote happens at the city council. Speaker 1: 25:24 All right. Well, a lot to look forward to. I've been speaking with Andrew Bowen, who's the Metro reporter for KPBS. Thank you so much, Andrew. My pleasure, Claire, that wraps up this week's edition of the KPBS round table. I'd like to thank my guests, Jade Hyman, Christina Kim, and Andrew Bowen all from KPBS news. If you missed any part of our show, you can listen anytime on the KPBS round table podcast. I'm Claire Tresor. Thanks for listening and join us next week on the round table.