Roundtable: Where enforcement fits into San Diego's homeless strategy

S1: We know there's a lot more to homelessness than just people needing shelter , mental health , substance abuse and the rising cost of rent all play a part. But what's the balance when public places are becoming less welcoming , safe and clean for everyone ? Today , we're looking at the role of enforcement in California cities , and especially here in San Diego. I'm Matt Hoffman and this is KPBS roundtable. Thanks so much for joining us for KPBS roundtable. I'm your host , Matt Hoffman. And joining us this week are KPBS reporter Alexander When San Diego Union-Tribune reporter Gary Warth is back this week and the co-author of Politico's California Playbook newsletter Laura Corti is here. Last week , we talked about the state of homelessness in San Diego , but there's new developments over the last few days and more discussion is needed here. This week , former basketball star and longtime San Diegan Bill Walton got in front of a microphone and some cameras. He called out San Diego Mayor Todd Gloria's approach to homelessness , saying bluntly , it's not working. We'll get some reaction from our guest in just a minute. But first , let's hear some of what Walton had to say Tuesday.

S2: San Diego , this once great city is in crisis. We have simultaneous homeless crises , humanitarian crises , public health crises. These are all the result of a leadership crisis. Try asking Todd Gloria to provide us the people who live here and need our part streets , sidewalks and bike paths for our everyday life and just want to go to the park. To ride our bikes. To the beach. To walk in our neighborhoods. To feel safe and secure in our own homes and lives. He's got no time , heart or stomach for that.

S1: Again , that was former NBA star Bill Walton. He's become a bit of a booster for San Diego in recent years , but we haven't heard him like this. Gary Worth , you were with us last week and covered this for the Union-Tribune. The comments are similar to emails or letters that Walton has written to Gloria.

S3: But it also demonstrates the uncertainty about what do you do about it. So we hear that there's more outreach , if there's more shelters or more services or more crackdowns on illegal behavior and there's more diversity of services. But does anything look any different ? So that's what Walton was was getting at ? I think he was he was just saying what a lot of people also are saying and feeling as they look around and , you know , they hear the statements from them , from the city. They watch the grand opening of another shelter and stories about this , not what's happening. And yet it just doesn't look like they're putting a dent on it. You know , when pushed at that press conference , when people asked , Mr. Walton , so what's your suggestion ? What do you do ? What are they not doing ? And he just said , well , they should do their job. They should clear the sidewalks. And , you know , that's easier said than done. There's there's not a law against being homeless. There already are laws against your kids camping on sidewalks and on parks. But you tell them you can't be here. They're just going to go someplace else. You arrest them and they're going to be released the next day. There's not enough shelter beds right now , and there's also not enough diverse type of shelter available for people who don't want to go into those shelters. So it's it's just not is as easy of a solution as , you know some people are impatient now will have to be. And I get these emails from readers , too , as I write the story , as story after story. And and I get the same responses from from people that I hear from from Bill and Alex.

S1: We know that you covered this story for KPBS. You know , people complaining about tents on the streets or erratic behavior. It isn't really new , but this time we're hearing it from a prominent name that transcends politics.

S4: So , yeah , it's going to cut through the noise a lot more. But as Gary says , there's not much that Gloria can do in terms of clearing people off the sidewalks. He can't , you know , criminalize homelessness. And of course , he can't just tell them to leave because there is a law against that. There is a ruling called Boise versus Martin that says city can't ban , you know , homeless encampments unless they have a place for the homeless to go to.

S1:

S5: And unfortunately , I think that the situation that's going on in San Diego is happening in lots of cities across California. I mean , we're continually. Seeing local officials under pressure to just do something. As you guys talked about earlier , There's , of course , concerns about the humanitarian aspect of this. But increasingly , you have business owners , people with kids , people who walk their kids to school saying this is just not safe. There needs to be something done. I don't care how you do it. Just do it. Something needs to happen. And that's a complicated task to achieve when you do have those legal precedents like the Boise decision. I will say that Governor Gavin Newsom is also under pressure to do this. I'm sure we've all seen encampments under state highways. That's actually his jurisdiction. So he has been more vocal about sending state workers into those areas and clearing out those encampments lately because he gets hit for that , too. When he's talking on the national stage , people will point to the homelessness in San Diego or the homelessness in San Francisco. As you know , the state mishandling its its residents. So tons of pressure all across the state. But also , you know , mirroring what's happening in San Diego.

S1: And Gary , we know that Walton , he wasn't alone when he made those comments earlier this week , the Lucky Duck Foundation. They were also there , too. And they're one of the many private groups that do the work of helping to fund shelters and providing short term solutions. Does Lucky Ducks presence essentially , you know , maybe lend some credibility to the idea that a firmer response is needed ? And then are you hearing any concerns that this could hurt lucky ducks work or relationships with the city or even other entities like the county they work with a lot ? We did hear from the mayor's office that they called Walton's comments during that news conference a tantrum of outright lies.

S3: Aggrandizing hyperbole and outright lies , I believe they said. And then they went on to say how much their glory has done. While Walton has only complained , Will it hurt the relationship with the city ? Probably not. Drew Moser , the executive director of Lucky Duck , he's he was there and he said they'd still want to work in partnership with with the city. They've always been kind of a thorn in the side to the city. I remember several years ago now , you know , Dan Shay , who was with Drew Moser , they were holding these press conferences also at University of San Diego to demand the city do something like , you know , they wanted them to open up a bridge shelter , a big tent to bridge shelter. And they they did pay for the first one. And the city has gone ahead and opened up a few more. So , yeah , they they they've been , you know , aggressive with the city before. But , you know , there's there's no sign that they're just burning their bridges with them and they don't want to work with them again. I think that was clear from some of the things that you Mosher said.

S1: You're listening to KPBS roundtable. I'm Matt Hoffman , and our guests are Alexander Wynne from KPBS News , Laura Cordy from Politico and Gary Warth from the Union-Tribune is here. Gary , we'll get back to the Bill Walton versus Todd Gloria argument , but let's check in on the county. This week , the Board of Supervisors voted to label homelessness a public health crisis.

S3: It certainly doesn't hurt at all. But I can't point to any one thing or anything that anyone has said where , you know , they they referred to this new declaration and they said , well , now we can finally do this. It doesn't create anything really specific , though. They're saying it elevates the discussion about homelessness , which I think has already been pretty elevated , about what it really is said to be doing is to just create the length of of a reasonable approach , though , that , you know , this public health crisis is county wide. And in the stories I've done to report on this , it lists the many , you know , health issues that homeless people do experience. And their planning for homelessness is a very unhealthy thing to experience and takes years off somebody's life. So many homeless people that I meet , I want to ask their age. I can't believe that they're as young as they say they are because , you know , they were at least 20 years older sometimes. So , you know , that's that's I think , the real impact of this declaration. It's kind of like we're all in this together. The county has your back. We recognize that this is a regional problem and let's work together.

S1: Supervisor Dora Vargas said this action would bring more attention to the issue. But as Gary just alluded to , is this really something that's lacking attention ? Laura , you recently wrote about some of the. Shares that Democrats are facing when it comes to affordability and the homelessness crisis in cities.

S5: I mean , there's no maybe some people would argue there's no need to bring attention to one of the state's biggest problems , one of San Diego's biggest problems. But , you know , I think that declaring it a public health emergency does add some urgency to it that the public is looking for. And , you know , people have mentioned to me in the past , you know , business owners , people who are more on the side of clearing encampments. They'll say like , you know , when there's a hurricane , when there's a natural disaster , you declare a crisis and you deal with it. And they feel like the same kind of urgency needs to be deployed around the homelessness issue because it is so pervasive , because it is so widespread. There needs to be more urgent action to be taken. And so maybe it doesn't change a whole lot of things. Maybe it frees up the city's ability to add services or to deploy certain resources. But I think it's probably more in the vein of trying to show the public that , like , yes , we acknowledge this is a serious problem and we're ready to urgently act on it. Whether they do. You'll have to see.

S1: And Alex , you talked about homelessness being a regional issue. We know that earlier this week you also covered the situation or the saga that's going on in El Cajon. Mayor Bill Wells and the state attorney general got into it over using public money to house people in motels.

S4: You know , of the 18 hotels and motels that are participating in this county program , eight of them are in El Cajon. And the mayor says at some hotels , 100% of the occupancy are from the people using vouchers. So he says , yeah , the county is pushing all these homeless people to his city. And of course , Nathan Fletcher , the chair of the Board of Supervisors , pushed back in saying that 86 to 94% , 95% of the people who are using these vouchers in El Cajon are from the East county. So they're staying there. So that's a little bit pushed back and forth between , you know , where the homeless people are coming from and where they're staying.

S1: And what's the situation. Now , we know that fines were threatened. The city of El Cajon said no. And then we had this letter from the attorney general.

S4: That's discriminating against homeless individuals. And the city rescinded those warnings. And the mayor , Bill Wells , is still on this track , is saying , you know , we need to do something because the county is is pushing homeless people to our city. So it's still at the little stalemate , as you will. And I do know that the city of Oklahoma had a meeting about this , and there are some public opinions about it. But as far as I know right now , the motels and hotels can still continue to accept accept those vouchers. But they have actually the owners have actually told the mayor that they will work to reduce the number of people that the acceptance vouchers in the hotels.

S1: And we know if that does happen , that will mean that more people will be living on the streets instead of hotel rooms. And , Laura , you know , when we talk about this , no one wants to be viewed as mean or uncaring to those who are vulnerable , who are homeless. At the same time , local leaders have the wider population to serve. You wrote about Sacramento's mayor , who's a Democrat , saying that enforcement has its place.

S5: Sacramento's mayor , Darrell Steinberg , has been talking about homelessness for a long time. He's been doing this for over 20 years. And he'll say that there are two tests to the homelessness crisis. The first that he'll talk about is whether you're actually getting folks off the street , whether you're actually helping them. And he'll argue that , yes , there are programs and there are , you know , state and local services that have successfully helped people lead very normal , healthy lives and get them off the street. But the second test , which is what we're all dealing with right now , is how the wider public feels. And that's a test that many public officials are failing because there's this feeling that not enough is being done. And so , you know , Steinberg and others will say enforcement has its place and that , you know , sometimes there's just needs to be people moving off sidewalks. You just can't have this these schools. You can't have this unsafe living environment in some places. I think Steinberg and other Democrats would argue that you can do enforcement humanely. In Sacramento , they approved this year an ordinance to ban camping on city sidewalks. But Steinberg ended up adding a resolution to that ordinance that prevents cops from immediately incarcerating people or fining homeless people. So they're really trying to find a way. Least in Sacramento , to have the enforcement without being overly punitive. You know , they want to be humane , but there's there's that second test. There's that pressure from neighborhood communities and businesses saying this is not a way to live. We don't want this here.

S1: Gary Warth from the San Diego Union-Tribune is back with us again this week. And Gary , we know that you've covered this issue for a long time in San Diego and in maybe one of the best at covering it. It's no different here than anyplace else. Politicians say they have plans to fix or solve homelessness or end chronic homelessness.

S3: Are I've I've met too many formerly homeless people who were in very bad shape to not be optimistic. So on the downside of it , the not so optimistic part is that if we solve all of those addiction problems , all of those mental health problems , you still have a large population of people who can't afford to live here. So we have a housing problem too. So we do have to address that. So it's not just about just the immediate problem that we see on the street. And can't we just do something to sweep them away and get them into some kind of shelter or get them some kind of help ? It's more it's more long term than that. And we're really behind times and trying to create enough housing that we're all dealing with. Housing costs in San Diego County is is tough for everybody , as you can imagine , for somebody who hasn't had a job in a few years and has had a lot of issues and now they've got to start their life over again and try to find a landlord will take them in with whatever money they're making. So there's a it's it's a steep gradient climb overall. You know , for those stakeholders , of course , they're going to say that this is a problem that can be solved or managed or improved because that's their job. That's what they're trying to do there. They're not going to say , oh , you know , everything that we're doing is for not we'll never solved this. But from observing us over many years now , I'm both , you know , somewhat encouraged. I think we're moving in the right direction. But , you know , I get what Bill Walton says to you. Look around , it's like , wow. It's like , look how bad it looks. I mean , the only thing I could say in response to that is , well , imagine how much worse it would look if they really weren't doing anything. So maybe , you know , in some way what we're seeing is a form of progress.

S1: And going back to some of Bill Walton's comments earlier this week , you know , San Diego voters just recently handed over the mayor's office and a city council majority to Democrats. But it costs more than ever to live in California , and this is happening on their watch.

S5: I've had pollsters reach out to me and say , you know , this is the top issue in local races for the past five years and nobody's been talking about it. The statewide polling also shows this. I think homelessness tends to be in the top three consistently. One of the biggest issues voters are concerned about. It's what politicians are being asked about in every race. I've been following the Los Angeles mayor's race really closely. And there you have a traditionally liberal Democrat , Karen Bass , talking about the need to be more forceful on these issues. I mean , it's just impossible for politicians to ignore this at this point. Whether this is something that voters are going to use to kick them out of office. We'll have to see , because I think that Democratic rule has been pretty strong in a lot of places in California. It's been hard to break. I think Republicans are really trying to and they're using the homelessness issue to do that. But , you know , the party that's in charge is always blamed for the problems and the homelessness is just continues to be one of the biggest problems. So if Democrats aren't showing they're moving some kind of action on that at any level , you know , they could be in trouble.

S1: And on this last question , we want to get everyone's take here as we wrap up at the start , we heard from San Diegan and NBA Hall of Famer Bill Walton. He was publicly criticizing the city's response to homelessness. But is he in a minority with his opinion ? I mean , what are you hearing from reader comments or people that are getting back to you in your work as reporters ? And , Alex , we can start.

S4: And , you know , to say that Mayor Gloria hasn't done anything is wrong. I mean , you know , it's show that he has done something , but he does actually criticize the mayor's handling of this issue. He says it was a bit to heart handed on some things , such as cleaning the encampments. And the mayor has been criticized for impounding the people's belongings and throwing them throwing them away. So there's that issue. But let's get back to the root cause of homelessness. And Gary has talked about this. It's the number one cause is housing , affordable housing. And of course , we don't have it here in San Diego. And that's forced a lot of people into homelessness. And I think lost in this conversation is that a lot of those homeless people do have jobs , they have full time jobs. They just can't afford to rent an apartment or rent a room somewhere here in San Diego. So they live in their cars , they live in their RVs. And a lot of the people that are currently living here in San Diego , they're just one disaster away from being homeless themselves. Because think about it , we don't have a lot of safety nets. So , you know , you can have a medical emergency and pretty soon you can't make your bills , you can't pay your bills , you can't pay your your rent and you end up on the street. And it's not to say that you did something wrong. It's just that you don't have the safety net that you needed to weather the medical emergencies or whatever the life crisis that you have.

S1:

S5: Business owners , as I've said before , are really passionate about , you know , pushing public officials to do something. There are very vocal homelessness advocates , too , who say that they're worried that this push is simply going to further penalize people who are already down on their luck. They're really concerned about making sure that they're not incarcerated or fined for this and that they are provided services. A lot of homelessness advocates say that the cities in the county simply need to be providing more beds. They need to be providing more services , more outreach , instead of just sweeping them from corner to corner. So that's you know , that's the advocate side , I will say. It's interesting. I want to get like I talked with a homeless man recently who had been moved from out under an overpass by the highway patrol , and he said it's not humane to move them out. He said , you know , their living conditions are humane. What's inhumane is people's attitudes towards homeless people. So that's , you know , bear that in mind. There's , you know , real people concerned about this. But it's a lot of passion on both sides. It's not an easy thing to do. I will say on the housing front , Governor Newsom yesterday signed side a bunch of housing bills to try and make it easier and cheaper to build homes. So to your point about the systemic problems and getting to the root , the state's aware of that. They're trying. It could be a few years before the benefits of that panned out , though.

S1: And Gary , what about you know , you've covered homelessness here for for many years.

S3: But I've been a reporter for a few decades now , and and I've always known that when people in the audience would pick up a pen to write a letter to the editor , it wasn't about how happy they were , about how great things were going there. You know , it's you do that when you're upset about something. So the feedback that I get often is from people who are upset , and I generally do. In fact , I hear from the same people a lot and they can be uninformed about just what can be done about it. They're impatient. But judging from the comments that I had on the Bill Walton article and there were a lot of comments , it seemed that people were pretty evenly divided there. There were a lot of people that were in agreement with Bill Walton. They were as frustrated as he was. And a lot of people calling him out for saying , you're not offering any solutions. You're just complaining , though. And this is a complex problem. And it's you know , Gloria is doing a lot. He is working on it. So there are a lot of people who actually took offense to what Walton said. You know , nobody thinks that this is a good situation now and people are kind of at their wits end about just putting up with it for this long. You know , anyway , that's that's some of the comments that I've been hearing.

S1: And we're going to have to leave it there for this week's discussion. I want to thank our guests this week , Laura Cody from Politico , Gary Warth from the San Diego Union-Tribune , and Alexander Wynne from KPBS. BBC News You can find KPBS roundtable as a podcast on all major platforms and even at pbs.org. Our roundtable producer is Ben Lacey , and our technical director is Rebecca Chacon. I'm your host , Matt Hoffman. Thanks so much for being here. We'll be back with you all next week.