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Political Battle Over Sunrise Powerlink Continues

Audio

Aired 12/15/10

San Diego Gas & Electric held a groundbreaking for the 117-mile Sunrise Powerlink transmission line last week, but County Supervisor Dianne Jacob will not give up her fight against the project. KPBS Political Correspondent Gloria Penner joins us to discuss the history of the controversial project, and to talk about why Supervisor Jacob continues to oppose construction of the line.

San Diego Gas & Electric held a groundbreaking for the 117-mile Sunrise Powerlink transmission line last week, but County Supervisor Dianne Jacob will not give up her fight against the project. KPBS Political Correspondent Gloria Penner joins us to discuss the history of the controversial project, and to talk about why Supervisor Jacob continues to oppose construction of the line.

Guest

Gloria Penner, KPBS Political Correspondent and host of Editors Roundtable and San Diego Week.

Read Transcript

This is a rush transcript created by a contractor for KPBS to improve accessibility for the deaf and hard-of-hearing. Please refer to the media file as the formal record of this interview. Opinions expressed by guests during interviews reflect the guest’s individual views and do not necessarily represent those of KPBS staff, members or its sponsors.

ALISON ST. JOHN: And you're back on These Days here on KPBS. And we're gonna be talking a bit about a very important subject, the sunrise power link that's been going through public hearings and the Courts for so long that many heaved a sigh of of relief when the project broke ground last week. But just because the governor has given his blessing does not mean that opponents of the power line have given up of the sunrise power line still represents a battle to those who see it as [CHECK AUDIO] power grab by the electricity company. With us is our political correspondent, our KPBS political correspondent, Gloria Penner with her weekly political fix. Gloria, great to have you here.

PENNER: Good morning, it's great to be here, and a very interesting topic we have today.

ALISON ST. JOHN: So remind us, why has SDG&E pushed so hard to have this link built across the desert to San Diego.

PENNER: Well, SDG@E and others say that the region is growing and that means that demands for new supplies of energy are growing, that we're gonna need a new power plant every five years, we'll have to find land for the power plant, and so part of SDG&E's long-term plan is conservation. They say energy efficiency programs and more renewable energy, including roof top solar. So the idea of sunrise is to carry renewable energy from the Imperial Valley where they have a lot of sun in the Imperial Valley, a lot of wind, that's renewable, to San Diego. However, the opponents say that they believe that Sempra, the parent company of SDG&E, plans to use the sunrise power link to import dirty fossil fuel from its plants in Mexico. So that really sets up part of the tension right there.

ALISON ST. JOHN: So we had this ceremony where the governor, Schwarzenegger was on hand to take part. What did he have to say about the project?

PENNER: Well, the governor is high on the project now. He sees the desert as a gold mine for clean energy. He says that the project is part of keeping a promising that he made to voters to avoid rolling blackouts. He actually sees it as an example to the entire nation as how you can use clean green energy. And he sees -- as I said, the line carrying the energy from massive projects to gather solar and wind energy, and he does recognize the questions that have developed about the environment and about sensitive species. But he said that the project backers have met with environmentalists to address those concerns. So as I said, he's high on it, and he continues to support it.

ALISON ST. JOHN: So on the other side, there's various different groups that are opposing it. So can you give us an idea of what some of the strongest arguments have been against this the sunrise power link.

PENNER: Absolutely, there are very strong arguments regarding fire hazards having -- when you have transmission lines and electrical power there. On tall towers. Upon concern about the fire risks there. Instead -- there are also feelings that this is a big land grab of the wilderness area, a pristine, beautiful wilderness area, and that the environment should remain natural and that hundreds of large scale energy projects, which would be needed to make the solar energy and the wind energy that would be carried on the transmission line, they will mar the area and destroy the look of it. And what people go out to the desert to live for and to live like. Also, Native Americans want to protect tribal artifacts. And they feel as though their culture will be destroyed as these towers are reacted and march up and down the desert landscape.

ALISON ST. JOHN: And one of the strongest voices against it has been San Diego County supervisor, Diane Jacob, who represents the people out there. Why is she so opposed.

PENNER: Well, the opponents including Jacob believe that power needs could be met through roof top solar projects instead of massive industrial scale projects. But she sees another reason that the utility is pushing for the project.

NEW SPEAKER: Where are the renewables going to come from that are supposed to go over this line? This is a hoax, it's a joke, it's a scam. And the only reasonable against the line is because of money. This is SDG&E and Sempra's life blood, transmission, infrastructure. And if they don't have this line, they don't make money. And it's all at the expense of ratepayers, and that's all of us.

ALISON ST. JOHN: Them's fighting words.

PENNER: Those are fighting words. And she has come out fighting. This has been a two fisted struggle on her part against the big guys, talking about against governor Schwarzenegger, against senator Diane Feinstein who is all for the project who says it will bring green energy and jobs, very needed jobs, to the entire state, actually.

ALISON ST. JOHN: The thing is, though, I suppose it make it's -- it's a logical conclusion that there's money behind this, they're gonna make money. But if they're gonna make money off green energy, people might say that's fair enough. What kind of money is Jacobs talking about?

PENNER: Well, she's talking about all kinds of money, she's talking about money that changes political hands. And she'll give you an idea of that in her own words.

NEW SPEAKER: This is the largest example of a pay for play in the State of California that I have ever seen. Follow the money and you will find out exactly why the decisions are made and who's behind the decisions. Starts with the California public utilities commission and the letter that governor Schwarzenegger sent to his appointed commissioners and told them, didn't ask them, told them to vote to approve this line. There is an 11000 page document, by the way, was funded by SDG&E. The conclusions in that 11000 page document, largest in California history, it concludes the line is not needed.

PENNER: Well, I think she also said during our interview that -- why would chambers of commerce in north and south county throughout the San Diego area be so interested in seeing this built? And then she more than implies that those chambers received money from SDG&E and Sempra. So she really feels that money is changing hands here.

ALISON ST. JOHN: And in terms of the profits, is the money gonna be connected more to power sources south of the border? Perhaps not the ones in the Imperial Valley? Is that part of what she's imply something.

PENNER: I think she's implying that SDG&E really needs this power line in order to make money. That money is made through transmission, through infrastructure. And that without this power line, the profitability of SDG&E would be down. That line's gonna cost $2 billion. She's also suggesting and other opponents suggested too that the $2 billion, which comes from ratepayers according to Jacob, that this $2 billion could instead be invested in roof top solar. And she said very specifically in Germany it works, and Germany doesn't have as much sun as San Diego. So this could really be the new future for San Diego and the new future for California.

ALISON ST. JOHN: So obviously Jacob is representing people in the back country, who the line is coming through their backyards, and I've talked to ranchers, property is gonna be severely affected by this line. So we happened where Jacob is coming from in representing their interests, but why is she saying all the rest of us should be so concerned about this project?

PENNER: Well, she has very strong feelings about the involvement of all of the people in this.

NEW SPEAKER: It's not just about the people that live in our back country. This affects all San Diegans. And that's why there's a community organization of thousands of individuals that have hired a topnotch attorney, and there are federal and state lawsuits that are pending. So this is not a done deal. Those lawsuits will take a while, no doubt, but there's still a chance to derail this very expensive, unneeded project.

ALISON ST. JOHN: Do you have more details on those lawsuits, Gloria?

PENNER: Yeah, well are several lawsuits before the California Supreme Court challenging the approval by the state public utilities commission. Of there are suits to stop the U.S. forest service approval. They may not be filed yet, but they are expected to be filed. You can has a lawsuit going. And there is a lawsuit that challenges the January 2009 decision of the U.S. bureau of land management to approve the power line. And it's from three local community groups that protect our communities, foundation, back country against dumps, and east county community action coalition. So she's right. There are several lawsuits. Now, whether they will be heard or heard in a timely way, she has questions about whether, for example, the judge is going to read all 11000 pages of that report that she mentioned earlier. Or that their staffs will. So I think she said it's up to the judges.

ALISON ST. JOHN: Now on the other side of the coin, of course, there are many residents in the Imperial County who hope that the project will be built because because.

PENNER: I can tell you that there's a 29 percent unemployment rate in Imperial County. And I think nothing says it better than this little piece that I found in the Imperial Valley press on line. It says to us, this is about growth and jobs; that the Imperial Valley needs this sunrise power line link as an economic life line. Its construction will help jump start current renewable projects, but also bring new development into our region. So you can see that Imperial County, at least the people who are speaking out on it, seem to be pretty high on it and excited about it, even though there are groups who say we must protect our desert.

ALISON ST. JOHN: I understand that there's now some doubt about some of the contracts to build a solar energy out there.

PENNER: Yeah, there is a large solar energy project. It's called Imperial Valley Solar. And it seems that there are some issues, legal issues, and financial issues that investors are getting concerned about whether this can really be pulled together. It may be the possibility that some of the investors are pulling out. And there's been disruption back there. So if you don't have these large, solar industries being built in the Imperial Valley, then you don't have the renewable energy to be brought on the transmission line. It's a fascinating situation. It's been going on for a long time. Alison, I was able to find documentation all the way back to January, 2006, before the California public utilities commission. And at that time, the commission was not particularly high on the whole project. They really were concerned. And that was five years ago.

ALISON ST. JOHN: So even if some of the green energy sources that SDG&E has been touting as the main reason they want to put this line in, even if they don't happen for a while, there are still some other sources that SDG&E definitely wants to tap, right? And why do they want to tap them so much.

PENNER: Well, you know, there are other sources of there are wind sources, but there's concern about that too. And then as was mentioned before, in Mexico, they own an LNG plant, a liquid natural gas plant. And so it's possible, it's been discussed, that this line could bring in the energy from the Mexican utilities as well.

ALISON ST. JOHN: Okay. And in the case of Jacob, who is so strongly against it, do -- can you say why it is that she is taking such a strong strand rather than just saying this thing is now a done deal.

PENNER: Well, I asked her very specifically, I said is -- are there political reasons for you doing this? And she said no, actually I'm being politically incorrect as far as some people are concerned. I'm not doing the right thing, politically. But she really is. I mean, she's representing her constituency. She represents the back country in San Diego. And truly with term limits in the kicking in until 2020, I believe, she could be elected a couple of more times. And people have been loyal to her. They have elected her now for at least 15 years. I don't know whether she's doing it for the vote. But she is indeed representing the concerns of the back country.

ALISON ST. JOHN: Great, well, Gloria, thank you so much for wringing us up-to-date on that. Obviously it's still an ongoing debate.

PENNER: It is.

ALISON ST. JOHN: That's KPBS political correspondent and host of San Diego Week, Gloria Penner.

PENNER: Thank you.

ALISON ST. JOHN: And stay with us, coming up in the next hour, it's Film Club of the Air here on These Days.

Comments

Avatar for user 'chuck_flacks'

chuck_flacks | December 15, 2010 at 5:47 p.m. ― 3 years, 7 months ago

Dear Gloria and Maureen,

As a longtime fan of yours and a current member of the Cali-Baja Mega Region steering committee, I was dismayed at the one-sided and somewhat inaccurate reporting done on this piece about the Power Link.

The Imperial Valley and Baja California are key components of a large economic development strategy that crosses the borders of both our county and the nation. Your report seemed to most support Supervisor Jacobs's position that this project is really only about money and "dirty power" generation.

While the alignment of the link is a point of continuing controversy, I, for one, believe that the power link is vital to the future economic development and workforce development for our region. Your report misses two important points:

First, the Imperial Valley is home to one of the largest repositories of geothermal steam in the world. This is not a "theoretical power source on the drawing boards," but an incredibly valuable and clean source of power that is currently being underutilized because of a lack of transmission. As the power link comes on line it will instantly provide an economic opportunity to expand geothermal in the Imperial Valley generating revenue and jobs.

Second, while liquid natural gas might not be the best environmental source of power, the growth and improvement of the cross border region has huge advantages in employment and economic development for Baja. Any improvement to the economy of Baja means less pressure for immigration (both legal and illegal) and greater business opportunities for companies both there and in the US.

The Supervisor and the land owners in the "back country" may not want growth and development; however, sustainable and responsible growth for our region is needed to power our economy and usher in a new age of green workforce and economic development. We cannot stay a "backwater" and continue to improve the quality of life for ALL our region's residents, including our neighbors across our county and national borders.

Chuck Flacks, Research Director, San Diego Workforce Partnership

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Avatar for user 'tomr'

tomr | December 16, 2010 at 11:29 a.m. ― 3 years, 7 months ago

I agree with Chuck Flacks.

Supervisor Jacob comment "Where are the renewables going to come from that are supposed to go over this line? This is a hoax, it's a joke, it's a scam". She is either clueless or deliberately distorting the truth.

Imperial County currently has 600 MW of geothermal energy on line. That's about a quarter of San Diego County's needs on a typical day. About 500 MW more are either in contruction or planning stages. It has the potential for much more. Geothermal energy is the single largest source of tax revenue for Imperial County government. Don't take my word for it. Verify my statements from reputable sources on line.

Further increases in production require infrastructure to transport them out.

BTW, I live in the San Diego backcountry. But I'm willing to look for all the facts, not just what Supervisor Jacob chooses to tell us.

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Avatar for user 'bpsandiego'

bpsandiego | December 16, 2010 at 11:56 a.m. ― 3 years, 7 months ago

Mr. Flacks takes a very optimistic view of the impact of the Powerlink and other Sempra-owned energy infrastructure on the future of Imperial County, San Diego County, and the Baja California border region. Sempra's existing energy assets in the region include the 1,250 MW Mesquite gas-fired plant in western Arizona and the 600 MW Mexicali plant, both of which connect directly to the Imperial Valley substation, the starting point of the Powerlink. Without even addressing the green power issue, it is reasonable to ask - in a country that holds market competition as the holy grail of economic development - whether granting even more monopoly power over energy supply to Sempra makes economic or common sense.

CPUC President Michael Peevey used raw political clout to override an administrative law judge's recommended denial of the project, and CPUC environmental review documents concluded that there are several better alternatives to the Powerlink, including a green power build-out in the San Diego area. SDG&E's army of attorneys have been unable to dismiss a major federal lawsuit against the project, precisely because of all the problems with the CPUC approval. The Powerlink will cost California utility ratepayers approximately $10 billion total in 2010 dollars over 40 years. This money will be made regardless of whether a single kilowatt-hr of electricity ever moves across the line. Presiding CPUC Commissioner Dian Grueneich voted against approving Powerlink because SDG&E refused to commit to putting any renewable energy on the line. SDG&E has not shown any interest in moving a substantial amount of Imperial County's geothermal resources over the Powerlink. SDG&E instead has stated for five years that the primary purpose of the Powerlink would be to import dish solar power from Imperial County. Dish solar projects in Texas and Arizona have already been cancelled due to high cost and questions about technological readiness. The Imperial Valley dish solar power project has just been suspended by the developer for lack of investors. The dish solar project has now been publicly revealed for what it has always been: a bait-and-switch. Sempra's fossil-fuel gas energy infrastructure will interconnect to the Powerlink the moment the line becomes operational. With the failure of the dish solar project, the line will provide a new pathway for Sempra's gas-fired generation. Local rooftop solar in the San Diego area is cheaper, quicker than cost of desert solar and the Powerlink combined. It is abundant and relatively untapped. For the cost of the 1,000 MW Powerlink we could develop more commercial rooftop solar capacity right in San Diego. If maximum economic development is the objective, maximum local solar power development is the road to success. Thank you Gloria and Maureen for exploring this controversy in some depth and not simply relying on SDG&E or Chamber of Commerce press releases to tell the story.
Bill Powers, P.E., Powers Engineering

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Avatar for user 'ScamDiego'

ScamDiego | December 16, 2010 at 12:36 p.m. ― 3 years, 7 months ago

Chuck Flacks is not the author of his comments. His post was drafted by Sempra Energy public affairs staff at the request of Molly Cartmill. Ms. Cartmill is a board member of the Workforce Partnership and the Director of "Corporate Responsibility" at Sempra Energy.

Please know that any organization speaking favorably of the Sunrise Powerlink, including the Workforce Partnership, takes corporate contributions from money from Sempra Energy. There is no exception to this statement.

Chuck Flacks should be ashamed of himself. He is allowing himself and his organization to be used as a shill for an energy company with all the ethics of Enron.

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Avatar for user 'chuck_flacks'

chuck_flacks | December 16, 2010 at 2:20 p.m. ― 3 years, 7 months ago

I have no idea who or what "ScamDiego" is, but I am most assuredly the author of my comments. And, for the record, I am NOT speaking on behalf of the Workforce Partnership, but simply as a concerned listener who was alarmed at the lack of discussion of Imperial's rich geothermal deposits.

And, I'm not ashamed to speak favorably for economic development in this county. I'm no shill and am at least willing to publicly identify myself.

Finally, I agree with bp (another anonymous poster!) who argues for more solar installation locally. We at the Workforce Partnership are investing over $1 million in the training of solar and energy efficient workers who would greatly benefit were this market expanded.

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Avatar for user 'Rockopotomus'

Rockopotomus | December 18, 2010 at 1:07 p.m. ― 3 years, 7 months ago

First of all, ScamDiego violates the guidelines with a personal attack towards Chuck Flacks, but I do not suggest removal. I find his conjecture cute.

Second, I am just a citizen with no credentials in this field other than having a construction background. So, take this with a grain of salt.

Imperial Valley has a viable resource that needs infrastructure. Without the risk of a new geothermal plant or wind farm being all dressed up with no place to go, Sempra is stepping forward with the new power link that can be instantly energized with less green sources until shallower pockets can get started.

SDG&E is required to meet 33% green energy by 2020 and they have to start somewhere. SWPL is tired and at capacity, and developing in San Diego is not cost effective. Sure, there are other solutions like roof top power, but how do you get the same people that don't want a transmission tower within 20 miles of their homes to put panels directly on top of their homes? Not to mention the lease agreements on an individual basis.

Sunrise is a good project that with open the doors to green solutions and create jobs throughout the region.

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Avatar for user 'julianlocavore'

julianlocavore | December 18, 2010 at 3:06 p.m. ― 3 years, 7 months ago

USE SOME IMAGINATION HERE...
ENERGY GENERATED CLOSEST TO ITS USE MEANS CONNECTING INTO THE EXISTING GRID...NO NEW TRANSMISSION TOWERS OR LINES NECESSARY! SDG&E COULD DO THIS INSTEAD OF THE EXTRA TRANSMISSION...LOTS OF JOBS TO INSTALL THE ROOFTOP PANELS, MAINTAIN THEM, FIX THEM....LOTS OF JOBS! THIS IS WHAT WE NEED NOW, NOT MORE STEEL TOWERS AND LINES THAT GET US INTO TROUBLE WHEN FIRE SEASON BEGINS....
IMPERIAL VALLEY COULD DO THE SAME ROOFTOP TECHNOLOGY FOR THEMSELVES AND CREATE JOBS TOO. TO PUT UP POWER GENERATION AND THEN DRAG LINES IS OLD SCHOOL TECHNOLOGY....NOT SMART....
UNLESS YOU ARE MAKING BIG BUCKS JUST TO BUILD THE LINES.
THEY WILL MAKE A BUNDLE!
WHAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IS WHY SDG&E DOESN'T CUT AND RUN FROM SEMPRAS TRANSMISSION SCHEME AND CREATE A NEW FUTURE FOR THEMSELVES. I FOR ONE WOULD RESPECT THEM MORE.
ITS ALL TOO OBVIOUS WHAT THIS GAME IS ALL ABOUT FOR SCAMPRA ....LOOK DEEPER....

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