S1: It's time for Midday Edition on Kpbs. Today , we are talking about 50 years of hip hop and its influence in San Diego. I'm Jade Hindman. Here's the conversations that keep you informed , inspired , and make you think. We'll take a look at how hip hop started and how it's evolving.
S2: I think about the story of hip hop in America and the story of hip hop. At the Tiny Desk , it's almost parallel.
S1: Plus , we'll hear about San Diego's unique hip hop sound and the artist behind it. Then we'll talk about the music's impact on American culture. That's ahead on Midday Edition. Welcome in San Diego. It's Jade Hindman. Today we are looking back at 50 years of hip hop as the music genre celebrates a milestone birthday from local artists to its influence on culture. We'll talk about how it started and where it's going. This is Midday Edition , connecting our communities through conversation. It all began on August 11th , 1973. 18 year old D.J. Kool Herc and his sister through a back to school party in the Bronx. Now largely credited as the night that birthed hip hop. It's been 50 years since then , and NPR's own Tiny Desk concert series is celebrating the milestone with big name artists performances. The senior producer responsible for putting those artists behind that tiny office desk at NPR's headquarters in D.C. is Bobby Carter. Bobby , welcome to Midday Edition.
S2:
S1: And it's great to have you here.
S2: Good to be here. It's really good to be here. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. So I want to start with some of your favorite hip hop Tiny Desk performances. You talked about it a bit on NPR. Tell me more.
S2: Yeah , well , always when I think about my favorite , the one where I actually I had to stop working because I was so engulfed in the moment. I always go to Freddie Gibbs and Madlib. Madlib was like , It's such a legend. And the way Freddie gives the way they did it. They brought in a band called L Michaels Affair , and they were able to play these samples that Madlib chopped on record and made them sound so vintage and dusty and made them sound new again. That combined with the sound and just Freddie Gibbs just rapping at just like the highest level you can live and live in color in a room.
S3: I can't move the same. I gotta readjust how I'm a new.
UU: I reminisce the feeling when I think about a million in the bag I used to dream about. Yeah. No heat up in there way by that.
S2: It was just an unbelievable experience to to behold. But also like Meg , the stallion was amazing. Jid was amazing. I have so many favorites.
S4: Who are making dates and that depends on whatever the date is. I got me a European papi out of Italy and he liked the model , but he always loved to picture me flying overseas and he just said , please.
S2: So the thing about the hip hop act , Tiny Desk , is that you're always going to get something brand new that you that you haven't heard on the record. So yeah , those are a couple of my favorites. Just a couple. Yeah.
S1: Yeah.
S2: For sure. There are , you know , given that we have so many big tiny desk , Right. Big hip hop , tiny desk. Right. Like it's easy for for everyone to gravitate toward a juvenile or to gravitate toward Tyler , the creator. But we also had the God emcee Rakim at the Tiny Desk before.
S5: Welcome to Harlem , the home of innovating legacies and stories of gods killing Satan , where they honor Harlem Father Philip Payton , The Renaissance in the making.
S2: We've had big crit at the Tiny Desk before. Rhapsody at the time , Yes , we've had Wu-Tang.
UU: Are you up in the air like this for me ? Put him up. Put them up. What about 25 years ? Strong man. And they in here. We ain't going nowhere.
S2: So there's so many. When you click on one hip hop show , you just I hear from so many people who listen to the show and who watch the show. Just click on that one show and let the algorithm take you down this rabbit hole of amazing moments behind that little desk.
S1: And that's exactly how it goes to. Speaking of juvenile , though , he performed there a few months ago , I actually heard it was quite the mission to get him to appear.
S2: He tweeted such in a way that was very like , what ? The F is a tiny desk , Right. And also , no , I'm not doing it. That was his quote. That was his tweet. And the response from our listeners and our in our viewers were just it was just overwhelming with no , oh , gee , you should actually Freddie Gibbs tweeted , I'm like , yo , G , you really should play the tiny desk. And here's why. And people just started listing off and tweeting dozens and hundreds of their favorite shows as examples to juvie as to why he he should play the desk. And within 24 hours he got he put a call to action saying that if this tweet gets 10,000 retweets , I'll consider and in less than 24 hours , that tweet went crazy. And the DM started flying my way and we finally made it happen. It took a couple of months , but yeah , we finally made it happen. And it was to me , one of the most exciting moments in music of this year.
S6: Without using my hands with. It.
UU: It. See , no matter what , you say it. Say room. I can't see.
S6: Slow motion for me.
S1: I thought it was pretty epic.
S2: Yes , indeed. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. But , you know , I bet. I bet that's rare , though , to hear someone who doesn't know what a tiny desk is. A lot of up and coming artists , I'm sure they come on and say it's been a dream of theirs to perform it. Tiny Desk.
S2: I think that it depends on who you're speaking to. I've started to notice it's a generational thing. So yes , most people know , but there's still a sector of our audience out there , just a sector of musicians who don't understand the cultural impact of Tiny Desk , don't understand like what it could do even for album streams and what it could actually do for a career that may have been thriving for ten , 20 , 30 years. It could really help , you know , catapult , you know , a huge career even further. You know , like when I think about Usher , when we had Usher at the Tiny Desk last year , you know , Usher is ushering. He didn't need a tiny desk. But , you know , it did really well for his his Las Vegas residency , you know , that extended and they continue to extend. And you know , it just goes to show like like you said , the power of of you know that that audience the power of the of a of a performer stripping away what you're used to seeing on a stage and just stripping away all the bells and whistles and just getting that raw talent right in front of it.
S7: If I'm going to tell it , then I gotta tell it all.
UU: I damn near cried when I got that phone call. I'm so good. I don't know what to do. But to give you my two of my profession. This.
S7: This. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. I mean , when Tiny Desk first started , it didn't focus on hip hop or really a lot of black music at all. That was a huge point of criticism that it only represented a few genres.
S8:
S2: I've been thinking about that a lot lately , and I think about the story of hip hop in America and the story of hip hop at the Tiny Desk. It's almost parallel , right ? I think for a long time , society sort of there was tons of misconceptions about hip hop and R&B and black music in general. And it was a lot of it was deemed unacceptable in a way. And I think in many ways there were people where we are at NPR who felt the same way , and it just took people like myself and many other colleagues to to really push forward and and let and let the powers that be know that know this this could be a game changer. You know , these artists and these black musicians , they can they can change the game for Tiny Desk. And , you know , when you look on our YouTube page now , you see , you know , the proof is in the pudding. You know , if it wasn't for black music , Tiny Desk , wouldn't we ? You and I may not have even been talking about Tiny Desk.
S1:
S2: Yes.
S1: Yes.
S2: A colleague , former colleague , my friend Kelly brought that to the table. And it's the perfect example. Even to this day. It's the perfect example of what a true what a true tiny desk should be. It's all about the all about the intimacy. Obviously , T-Pain is known for Auto-Tune and he , you know , kudos and hats off to him. He leaned into the the big challenge of taking Auto-Tune away , something that he was known for his call and was Auto-Tune. And he walked into the building and everybody was was nervous and it was completely awkward. But once he got back there and just sang and that natural voice came out , it was the most magical thing to this day you'll ever experience at the Tiny Desk , because no one expected that. And his voice is unbelievable and a lot of people did not know that. And it was the first time that the Tiny Desk experienced a real viral moment.
UU: Baby girl , What's your name ? Let me talk to you.
S9: Let me buy you a drink. And then I'm T-Pain. You know me can bring music and every Bowie I know the.
S1: Claw close at three. Right ? And I want to say that's the first time I got I was introduced to Tiny Desk , the Tiny Desk series.
S2: Where you and millions , millions of millions of other people. That was that was the that was the gateway. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Yeah , it was.
S2: Number one , I wasn't even on NPR music staff at the time. When I first started producing Tiny Desk concerts I was on. On the other side of the building as a digital media engineer. I just happen to be like a music lover. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed with music. And I started my career as an intern with Bob Boilen , the creator of Tiny Desk Concert. I started my career as his intern , so I kind of had a foot in. I was able to kind of get my pitches in , but it took a while , you know , because I didn't have a track record over at NPR Music. But , you know , to his credit , he trusted me and we finally made it. The first tiny desk I've ever produced was the foreign exchange back in 2000 , I want to say 2014. And once I started to do more and pitch more , we had the Rhapsodies and the macmillans and the and the and the Anderson packs and stuff like that. I was able to sort of build up a track record to the point where , you know , they trusted me. Yeah.
S1: Yeah.
S2: I take it so serious. I take it serious. I think that , you know , especially with our audience , given that our audience is so young and so diverse , and I think about some of the debates I see on social media at times and a lot of our greats at times could be reduced to a social media debate or be reduced to a meme or something like that. It's my responsibility and responsibility of my colleagues to remind people of of the greatness that a lot of these artists have brought to our culture and brought to music and brought to society. So I think it's there. There's a responsibility to deliver the flowers for especially for those who may have forgotten. Like when you look at what we what we did this year for Black Music Month , celebrate Black Music Month , celebrating the likes of a Charlie Wilson , celebrating the likes of a baby face where maybe the younger generation didn't don't realize just how impactful these artists are in our culture and our in our in the in the in the very being , like in black people. So I think that yes , it's a it's an ultimate responsibility to do that. There's a you know , we have a huge platform and millions of people are watching and there's enough time and enough space and enough days in the year for us to cover everything. But for me , I do feel a specific passion to highlight our heroes.
S1: Yeah , Yeah. And growing up in Saint Louis , what was the soundtrack of your teenage years ? All.
S2: My God , You know , we were so lucky. When I say we , you and I , we were so lucky to grow up in Saint Louis because we're right in the middle. You know what I mean ? Like , we get the West Coast influences , we get the East Coast influences , we get the Down South influences. So I always feel so lucky from a music standpoint because there was really no for me , from my standpoint , there was no bias. You know , I wasn't necessarily loyal to one style because we were right in the middle and I was able to kind of appreciate it all. So , you know , when you look at when I look at , you know , the way I curate and the way I , I just it's just such a gumbo , you know what I mean ? It was just such a gumbo in 90 , you know , in the 90s when I was in high school , it was a lot of bone thugs and harmony. There's a lot of Tupac , a lot of biggie , Um , a lot of pop. You know , I worked at , I worked at Sam Goody at Northwest Plaza. So I was able to , I was able to , like , learn and really get my chops and learn about , you know , the different genres. So I was able to dip into , learn about the pop , the pop arena and more jazz and more and more rock , because each employee at Sam Goody , they were considered a genre expert , almost kind of like we have at NPR. Each person is considered a quote unquote genre expert. But yeah , growing up in Saint Louis , I just I was lucky enough to , like , get a dose of it all. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Yeah. No , I totally agree with that. And we've talked about how hip hop influences culture and it seems NPR Music and Tiny Desk play a major part in that. Now.
S2: And. And I think a part of that is that we're listening to them. They help inform our decisions for who we bring. So given that we cover , you know , we we're casting such a wide net from generation and genre , I think we're moving the needle and we're shifting , we're shifting and shaping shape and culture every day. We're bringing in artists that people may not think are like the typical NPR safe choice. You know what I mean ? And I think that when you when we do that , we're saying that , you know , we we believe in these artists. I think that , you know , sometimes I said this before in another interview , I think that sometimes rappers , particularly , they come in thinking that they can't , like , curse and they can't fully express themselves. And I'm always making my duty to kind of let them know , like once you're behind the desk , you can you can express your art the way you intended when you when you recorded it. And I think that's really important for our culture to feel important and feel valuable and feel feel that we can be ourselves. And this no matter where we walk , we can be ourselves. I think that's very , very important , Um , culturally and , and , and I just really , really want to continue that because the audience has spoken. It means something to them.
S1: I've been speaking with Bobby Carter , senior producer of NPR's Tiny Desk concert series. Bobby , it's been great talking with you and thanks so much for joining us. Yeah , this is so.
S2: Much fun , Jade , I really appreciate you talking to me and and thank you. Oh.
S1: As T Pain's Tiny Desk concert takes us to the break , we want to know what was the first hip hop song you fell in love with. Give us a call at (619) 452-0228. You can leave a message or email us at midday at pbs.org. Coming up , the conversation continues with Parker Edison about San Diego's unique sound and history of hip hop.
S10: The signature of our sound is we have something that can be super creative and be just right for the mainstream , or we have something that is completely left of what's popping in the mainstream , but equally as popular.
S1: You're listening to Kpbs Midday Edition.
UU: I'll be in the gray when the. Learn. Na na na na.
S1: Welcome back. You're listening to Kpbs Midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman. We're talking about hip hop's 50th anniversary. And as you just heard , hip hop may have originated on the East Coast in New York , but there are vibrant scenes from Atlanta to Los Angeles. And San Diego even has its own illustrious rap history. So we wanted to talk more about the local hip hop scene , San Diego artists who left their mark on the genre and those who continue to hone their craft. Joining us with more is Parker Edison. He is the creator and host of the Kpbs podcast The Parker Edison Project. Parker , welcome back to Midday Edition.
S10:
S1:
S10: How are you waking up ? Waking up ? It's a slow morning.
S1: But first questions first. You know , I want to start with your musical background.
S10: Yeah.
S1: All right. And describe what the San Diego hip hop scene is like.
S10: It's very creative. It's so , so , so , so centered on the creativity that that's what we kind of offer when we when we work with other cities and states and other artists. That's kind of our contribution. And on the flip side , we don't have like a huge infrastructure for business and management talent agents. We don't have a lot of those types of things here. So it really is a DIY culture and seeing.
S1: What sets us apart in terms of hip hop from other cities and other regional scenes stylistically.
S10: Again , maybe because of our proximity to LA , we have our ear to what's mainstream popping and also because we're naturally creative. We're kind of tweaking that formula and working on our own formula. And all three of those things are coming out of the city simultaneously. And so that's kind of like the signature of our sound is we have something that can be super creative and be just right for the mainstream , or we have something that is completely left of what's poppin in the mainstream , but equally as popular.
S1: And you know , we talked a bit about how Southeast San Diego actually they've got a notable history with rap and you've even produced a community music project and podcast episode about it.
S10: The project that we put out was called Reclaiming the Community , and it was very much a grassroots effort that was spearheaded by Pillars of the Community , which is a collection of artists , businesses and community advocates that are all working in southeast San Diego. And so everyone just kind of threw their resources in and we put together a compilation. But specifically we were tapping into the street level artist for this record to bring awareness to the fact that previously incarcerated people had had been released and now had the right to vote. And so we were just kind of letting the disenfranchised voters know that they had a voice and that they had the capabilities. We were bringing that awareness to them , and we used the street level rap and rappers to have those conversations. And it went really , really well. It was incredibly well received. And then we did a second mixtape that featured new school rap artists that are kind of pushed the envelope a little less traditional. And so that was the Reclaiming the Community Project , and it was really well received. It received the Peacemaker Award , the National Peacemaker Award. And my podcast is called the Parker Autism Project. And I did an episode on the San Diego Improv , which is similar to what they had in the Apollo in Harlem , where unsigned talent can come and perform in front of the people and for the people and become favorites or have their work critiqued. And it also was an offshoot of what was happening in LA's project Blowed.
S1: Parker I want to talk about the seminal artist in San Diego hip hop.
S10: On another side. Big Joon is a is an underground rap artist whose career probably starts in like the mid 90s. He was probably 15 when he had cassette tapes going out and just moving them hand to hand. Those tapes are still out and available now and not , not you have to go dig and find people who are collectors or regular people in the neighborhood will still be like , Yeah , I got that big June tape. So he's he's a huge one. And the impact , he's still putting out music. He's still he's still someone that's that's looked to in the community that the young cats look to as the bar and who they should look to. For advice and mentorship. We always talk about Oracle or Elohim , who is like almost the father of of an underground movement , masters of the universe. So that's three cats. That's three cats right there.
S1: All right.
S10: And this this is actually this goes between two. Here's a bridge to 19. The number man has been in the scene since 1995 , 96. I met him because I got a cassette that he was on when I was running around Southwestern College in like 96. And so he had hot tapes out then. And that's how I learned about it. And he's still making music now. He has a live band. It's called 1019 to the Number Men. They just put out some music. This last two years they've been just on a on a on a hot run. I'm a big fan of them. And also Rick Scales. Rick Scales is a cat that's probably been been in it for at least , let's say , a solid ten years. I think he's been really , really just kind of grinding it out here in the city. He's one of the best freestyle artists. He's a he's a show promoter. He has an ongoing thing called Slap in Hands that's been kind of holding down the live music for rap here in San Diego. And he's just an insane lyricist. He he has a rhyme where he he rhymes it with meniscus. Okay.
S1: Okay. We're going to play it. Yeah.
S11: Yeah.
S7: Great as a discus. Go in the distance. You told your meniscus with this not hard to miss. Like cool jeep raps.
S10: As fade nasty , fade Nasty Did it. That's the name of that track.
S1: What about you ? You're you're a hip hop artist lyricist.
S10: So a lot of my stuff is kind of introspective in a way. I'm a big fan of like jazz. I'm out of the box , but I'm also a fan of just rocking the party. Like I come from the School of Rap that they just plug the turntables up next to a light pole and catches get busy in the park and you got to you got to really have that charisma and pull them in. So being quite humble , that's that's the kind of school of art that I come from. So I try to make music that does that , that rocks well in the party. But also I'd like to do stuff that's just headphone music that cats can kind of kind of get out of the box with and , you know , check me out. I got I got something called the Couch Tapes that's kind of classic underground stuff. And then later I do something called the Parker Meridian with a live band. We fight every night. Now , that's not kosher. I reminisce with bliss of when we was close , but I wake up to be greeted by an argument again.
S6: You act like you're ten. You're so immature. I try to concentrate on the cure. I keep looking at the front door thinking if I was to evacuate , you probably be straight and straight. And what ? I have so much hate because you don't know the pain I feel when I see you smiling. But when I rolled up , I.
S10: Think we took maybe three Sandiego music Awards in the last six years. So it's worth a listen. We do. Okay. Are you. Like.
S1: Like. We do. All right. Okay. Go ahead and toot your horn , Parker. You know , in our show , we've talked about how hip hop continues to have a massive influence on popular culture.
S10: The music is almost if the culture is based on graffiti , dance , DJing and and then rap. Rap is probably at the bottom in San Diego where we have so many DJs because we have so many clubs , because we have so much tourist action coming out here. So whereas you might hit a place like the Bronx , they're pillars of rap that the lyricist might be at the top for San Diego. I think it's very much the the DJ , which makes us more like tastemakers. We we have a history with mixtapes. DJs like Mike Check had series and we've always had those cats and we even had major like major mixtapes come through here and we've had a circuit of those. So I think that's kind of like how San Diego has always gotten down. I think that's our our way of contributing. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Interesting how you brought in , you know , how hip hop has influenced like graffiti dance. You know , when we talk about hip hop , people sort of only think about music , but there's a lot , a lot that that , that it's connected to , correct ? Absolutely.
S12:
S10: And it's it's circular like the , the , you know , the graffiti or the fashions. What you're looking at while the music is playing and somebody has to play the music is the DJ. And so every and that's the beauty of it is that you go to different cities in different states. This state might have the best rappers in this state might be yielding the best producers. And so , you know , with San Diego , I think that we're we're very much feeding the culture in terms of where we're observing , of what the style is. We're observant of the the nuances of how we're speaking. We're very much aware of what is what will be happening to the generations that are dealing with hip hop or enjoying hip hop , what their lives will be like and how we need to socially prepare them and keep them safe. And that's what you have groups like those of the community doing grassroots social justice for. So but those are the aspects of the culture. Yeah , I think those are the places that San Diego really , really pushes hip hop and has it in front. We have some great lyricists too , but I think they're a little bit lesser on the totem pole.
S1:
S10: And I'm using that term in general. Like you got to. You got to get down and talk to the people who are doing things. You got to reach out and and hit the DJ who's playing at places and just run up on them. Hey , artistic. Who do you who do you really like ? Hey , DJ Legend , you know whose last show that you you really enjoyed ? And just having those conversations with the tastemakers as you find them. Jazz The producer , Rebecca Jade We didn't even get into how hip hop is. Still , there is like a jazz traditional jazz scene here in San Diego , but that is really an offshoot of hip hop because a lot of them are fans of hip hop and are still in that space. So like but talking to those type of tastemakers , which makes an Al Howard or Rebecca Jade , all these cats , you got to you got to get down and just talk to the people who are out here and network a little bit to get the real info because we don't have major blog sites that people can go to anymore because of Covid. A lot of that's kind of quieted down. So it's really we're back to kind of word of mouth now. In fact , I have a record with Rebecca Jade and that's how how rap and jazz kind of mix and match here in San Diego. And the one that we have is called No Sequels. And that's from when I was doing a live band with Nathan Hubbard and John Reeder. And Rebecca Jay was kind enough to come through and do the vocals. And it's a very it's a real kind of out of the box nod to Donna Summer. In my opinion.
UU: The first time you saw The Sky with Rain and it was perfect. Never be the same. So many memories.
S10: I can't prove it , but I feel that way about it. It gives me Donna summer vibes , but our music is very , very underground in itself. So again , here's this wild hodgepodge.
S1: All right. I've been speaking with Parker Edison , host and creator of the Parker Edison Project. And Parker , thanks so much for joining us always. Absolutely.
S10: Absolutely. Thanks , Jay.
S1: We're going to be all right. There's a little Kendrick Lamar takes us to the break. Coming up , we've got Dr. Marcus Collins who talks about the influence of hip hop and American culture.
S13: I mean , a lot of ways , hip hop culture sort of captures the ethos of American culture , this idea of coming from nothing to something.
S1: You're listening to Kpbs Midday Edition.
UU: Now skimming. And let me tell you about my life.
S1: Welcome back. You're listening to Kpbs Midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman. So we were just talking about hip hop's influence here in San Diego , but it also influences so many parts of our culture beyond just music. Its imprint is on fashion , media , dance , even politics. You know , hip hop continues to be a major part of the cultural movement. Here to talk more about that is Dr. Marcus Collins. He's a professor at the University of Michigan , former digital strategist for Beyonce and author of the new book for The Culture. Dr. Collins , welcome.
S13: Hello there. Thanks for having me.
S1: Glad to have you here. So the cultural impact of hip hop is so broad.
S13: I mean , a lot of ways , hip hop culture sort of captures the ethos of American culture , this idea of coming from nothing to something. And hip hop really at his ethos is that it started off as a house party and it was just a form of music at that time , a way of taking the breaks and finding interstitials to keep a party moving. But what it's turned into is cultural production. This is art that expresses a way of life for a particular group of people. And considering what hip hop is sort of birthed in this idea of overcoming the obstacles and living to the highest fidelity possible , there are many people who share the same point of view across the world , and its impact has been global in nature because of that very thing.
S1: Do you think that sort of the purpose behind hip hop has , you know , significantly changed between when it first started 50 years ago and now ? Sure.
S13: I think there's some evolution , but a lot of the same. That's the same spirit , right ? Like it was a party in 1520 Sedgwick Which avenue in the South Bronx. Which which is a impoverished community is the housing project. Right. And even in times of of oppression , even in times of depression , there's still something to celebrate. And hip hop is that it's about celebrating even in times when things are not looking great and also finding those moments to overcome or find those opportunities to overcome those moments. And music becomes the way by which that happens , quite literally. Taking people from areas that are socioeconomically impoverished to providing opportunities to make way for themselves and their family to create generational wealth. Hip hop is I don't think anyone who started out think Kool Herc when he was in his sister's birthday party thought that hip hop would come this far , as Biggie Smalls says in Juicy. But it certainly has. But the ethos of it hasn't changed. It's just evolved.
S1:
S13: I mean , hip hop , I mean hip hop. It's such it's so consumption positive that it quite naturally will have an impact on what we wear , what we drive , how we adorn ourselves , the products that we use in those times. And , you know , in the early 80s , when when artists will get on stage , when DJs would get on stage and perform and artists are going to say , just start rhyming what they wore , what they adorned themselves in was a way by which they signaled where they were in the social hierarchy. It was a way by which they're able to achieve their identity project. And at its core , that's what hip hop does today also , and its impact on industries spans from music , of course , to auto to fashion to beauty , to technology to jewelry and and consumer packaged goods and so on and so on and so on.
S1:
S13: I mean , it's unbelievable. It's really unbelievable , especially at a time when people say that hip hop wasn't even real music. They said it was a fad. It wasn't going to it wasn't going to last long at all. And now hip hop has become the most consumed genre in the country. Not only that , it certainly has reverberated beyond just the South Bronx. To become a part of the American ethos has become what we say normal. What was once fringe and subcultural has now become normal. And it is. Is a part of our vernacular. It's how we talk is how we it's how we adorn ourselves is how we style ourselves. And in that salience of what was once relegated to a certain group of people , for it to be adopted the way it has. It says a lot about what this this culture means not only to the people who created it , but those who can see common marginality inside of it.
S1: Yeah , I mean , you know , five decades of hip hop means it's influenced so many people over the years. Can you talk more about how the music and culture shaped all of these different generations ? Sure.
S13: I mean , I think hip hop , out of all the music genres that have an associated culture , hip hop was wise enough to evolve as the world around it evolved. I mean , if you if you take a snapshot of people who consider themselves punk today , it looks very much like it looked 20 years ago , 30 years ago. The same thing with rock. But if you take a snapshot of hip hop every two years , every three years , every year , it looks different because it evolves with the culture around it. That is , it responds to the shocks to the system of a group of people , and then it manifests in its adornment what it wears and the language that that it uses. And this is what makes hip hop such a timeless thing. That's why it can last for so long , because it looks so different over the years. It evolves over the years as people find new ways to express themselves again , back to what the ethos of of , of of what hip hop is about. And I think that its ability to to evolve over time has created more doorways for people to be a part of it. You know , at one time hip hop was very much New York and maybe if you didn't , if you didn't appeal to that sensibility , you didn't find a way in for you. But now there's Chicago hip hop , there's down south hip hop , there's West Coast. Of course , that made its way in the late 80s or early 90s. Of course , you've got Florida hip hop with like two live crew. There's so many ways by which people are able to enter the the genre and therefore be able to rework what the ethos meant through their own cultural lenses. And that allows it to not only evolve but also grow.
S1: Right ? And you know , I mean , what do you think about this ? I feel like earlier on when hip hop first started there , there was much more real estate for conscious rap. And then that started to change as the decades went on.
S13: There's one what the public has a taste for. It's what their appetite is at the moment and how the music situates that. The other thing is , just like all things in cycles , sometimes conscious artists might feel too heavy and people say , I just want to dance. I just want to party because life is too heady. And then therefore they swing one way until the consciousness of the people are ready to go to something that's a bit more weighty. And I think that what what hip hop provides today is that there's such diversity in the content. I mean so much diversity in the artist that there is a place for everyone , right ? You can still be a I'm a boom bap hip hop guy. Like I don't like trap. I don't like drill. Well , this is for me. I'm a synthetic perspective and a sonic aesthetic perspective where you can say , Look , I'm not a party guy. I want things that are like like they're reflecting what's happening in the streets. Okay , There's something there for you. If someone's like , Hey , look , you know , I grew up Native Tongues , Tribe Called Quest like myself , De La Soul , and like , I want something that's a little bit more conscious or just kind of talking about the world around them in a way that that's more sensible to the way I see the world. Then there's that for you. And while it may not seem like there's much of it , well , that's just because there are the primary ways by which we listen to music through terrestrial radio. They only have so many slots to play so many songs and they're playing what the general populace is looking for. However , there's representation across the entire genre for people who are looking for that , and there are places by which they're able to to consume it. And , you know , it's it's a it's a buffet in a lot of ways that you pick up what you want and you have you have the artists that are there to serve you relative to your your desires.
S1:
S13: Quite a bit. Quite a bit. If you look at music from the 80s and the 90s , they almost seem unacceptable with regards to the objectification of women. The idea of what it means to be a man is sort of the the way things stood as far as the language that was used for people who are the LGBTQ plus community. The genre has grown up , but it still has a lot of growing , growing to do. And we and we've seen artists speak up about this and we've had hip hop artists like Lil Nas X , for instance , who came out as as gay and that not be a career destroyer for him , which I would say 20 years ago quite likely would have been. And I think it's it's the diversity of the genre that's allowed us to have this sort of discourse to talk about these things either explicitly or implicitly. One of the most one of the first kind of conscious rap songs was the message with Mel and the Furious Five. Like you know , these guys were talking about the world around them as a way of sparking discourse within the community.
S7: It's I'm trying not to lose my head. It's like a jungle sometimes it makes me wonder how I keep them going under.
S13: It's like a jungle sometimes. And as we see artists who have taken steps forward for whatever reason , be it intrinsic motivation or extrinsic pressures , they have taken on new rhetoric in the way they talk about women. They talk about themselves. They talk about people who aren't like them. I think it's that it's those pressures that are applied to the work , to the production that has led to , I would hope , hopefully like to say a more inclusive community writ large. But it's the discourse that makes that happen. And hip hop has grown from those early years , but we still got more growing to do.
S1:
S13: And the question becomes. What will the people gravitate towards ? Where are we as a community ? Are we ready for for more consciousness ? We're ready to talk more about the things that are happening in the world that aren't related to consumption , that aren't related to our social status. You know , are we in a place where we're ready for the hip hop version of Marvin Gaye's What's Going On Going to Go ? Is this waiting or waiting for another to Pimp a butterfly , if you will ? Or are we ready to party more ? Because the world around us is tough and we need an outlet. I think that that still remains to be seen. And while those things may be binary or seeing binary on the surface , the idea is that hip hop is going to continue to to evolve and to change , and it's going to continue to swing swing across the spectrum. And that's what has given it longevity , its ability to be agile , its ability to change , the ability to to bring new , new voices in and change the face of the genre so that the future holds anything it will be , it won't be what it's always has been. And that's actually , I think , a good thing for the industry , but sometimes kind of heartbreaking for people who are nostalgic like myself.
S1: You're not alone there. I've been speaking with Dr. Marcus Collins , professor at University of Michigan and author of the book for The Culture. Dr. Collins , thanks so much for joining us.
S13: My absolute pleasure. Jay. This was it was a privilege and an honor to be with you.
S1: In what ways do you see hip hop's influence around you ? Give us a call at (619) 452-0228. You can leave a message or you can email us at midday at pbs.org. We'd love to share your ideas here on the show. Don't forget to watch Evening Edition tonight at five for in-depth reporting on San Diego issues. Of course , we'll be back tomorrow at noon. And if you ever miss a show , you can find the Midday Edition podcast on all platforms. I'm Jade Hindman. Thanks for listening.
