S1: Welcome in San Diego , it's Jade Hindman. Today , a panel of psychologists joined the show to talk about the ways they're working to improve the mental health of men and boys. This is Kpbs Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. The importance of mental health has garnered more attention in recent years. U.S. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy called it the defining public health crisis of our time for men and boys. Specifically , stigmas of what masculinity is or isn't can prevent them from seeking treatment. Later this month , San Diego will be welcoming experts in the field of men's psychology for a conference on the psychology of boys and men. I'm joined now by some of the speakers at this year's conference. Dan Singly is a San Diego psychologist from the center for Men's Excellence and president of the American Psychological Association Study of Men and Masculinities Board. Dan , welcome.
S2: Thank you so much for having me.
S1: Glad you're here. Also , Aaron Rodgers joins us. He is an adjunct professor at Penn State University and coordinator of the black and African-American Student Services at the center for Counseling and Psychological Services. Baron , welcome to you.
S3: So wonderful to be with you here today.
S1: Glad to have you here as well. Daniel Ellenberg is the co-founder of Relationships That Work and founder of strength with Heart Men's Group. Daniel , welcome.
S4: Thank you. Good to be here.
S1: And finally , University of Kansas professor Brian Cole. Welcome to you all. So glad to have you all here. Yeah. So Dan , I'm going to start with you. Compassion is the theme of this year's conference on the Psychology of Boys and Men.
S2: We don't necessarily associate compassion with being a man , with being a with being a gay guy. Like if you think about , like , what comes up in your mind when you say , oh , he's such a guy , it ain't compassion so much. And I feel really strongly that embracing the complexity of what it means to be any gender. But of course we're here. Focusing on men and masculinities means you have to go beyond just the narrow , the narrow part of the story that comes up in the stereotype. And there's plenty of research to show that when when men are able to show compassion to others and to also experience self-compassion within ourselves , we all have parts of ourselves that we don't like , people of all genders , and certainly men and boys , but then also to experience compassion from others. And so that's why the conference theme is compassion for , from and from within. So I like I like saying , you know , what compassion is is manly.
S1:
S3: And really a lot of folk is that they often take responsibility for things , even from their childhood that they could have no real control over. And so I might have a client who's male identify , say , I should have been able to control the way my father treated my mother , or I should have control the outcomes of their divorce and say , hey , I should have been a better son. I should have worked harder. I should have did these things. And that would have taken off the stress in my parents relationship , or that would have helped my brother or sister. And so when men endorse these strong notions , I have to always be responsible. They inversely kind of create this shame on themselves that I didn't do enough. And so that's where we kind of start to say , well , how can you see that child who took on these challenges and engage them with some self-compassion , some graciousness , some forgiveness that no , an eight year old cannot control adults. No , they could not control the situation. No , they did the best that they could. And we find clinically that when they're able to offer themselves compassion for the things that they didn't have control over , that they're able to reduce some of their current distress and have more improved and more kind of like empowered moments in their lives presently. Wow.
S1: Wow. Because that's a heavy weight for anyone to carry. Brian , you know , one of the presenters of this conference is the American Psychological Association's Society for the Psychological Study of Men and Masculinities. Can you talk about this idea of masculinities ? Absolutely.
S5: So for the last few decades , psychologists have gathered together to try to critically understand manhood in the same ways that we took the time to understand femininity through the lens of feminist theories. And over the course of the last few decades , we've come to understand a lot about the social pressures that boys and men come to experience as they learn how to be boys and how they learn to be men. The cultural expectations for what it is to be a man or a good man , and trying to understand the psychological implications of some of those things in the men that many of us work with. It plays out in terms of things like restricted emotionality , experiences of isolation , challenges with intimacy , really not spending a whole lot of time connecting the aspects of masculinities , even , that are maybe healthy for men. We know a lot about shame. We know a lot about , you know , the more toxic aspects of masculinities as they're discussed in popular culture. But as a division , I think we're really more interested in understanding the ways in which the lessons we learned from boyhood restrict how we act as men , and what are the aspects of masculinity that work for us. And one of the aspects that work for our families , our communities ? And what are the aspects that maybe get in the way ? And how do we empower men to figure out one , that they have a gender identity and to what they want that to look like as an adult ? Mhm.
S1: You know , Daniel focusing on the mental health of men and boys. Well it's something that that doesn't get nearly enough attention. So why is it an important area of focus for you.
S4: Well I think that both Danny and Barron were really speaking to that , you know , which is , you know , just a step back from or I just got back from Australia and there I was able to meet with one of the leaders of. Movember , which is the largest. Movember is the largest men's mental health organization in the world , and I was telling him about a group that actually Danny and I are involved in , which is the men and boys. And Baron also is involved with the Men and Boys Compassion Initiative. Where where our focus is about really how do we support boys and men to develop more self-compassion , more compassion for others and inspire more compassion toward them. And and he said to me , do you find that a hard sell , you know , to the compassion piece ? Because he's well aware , as many of us are , about how compassion is generally linked with the feminine , with female , that females are compassionate , but men are tough. And I think that when we take in what Baron was saying about this person who felt like he was supposed to be in control and stop something that was actually beyond his control , and that he's actually down on himself about that. And so there's this self-criticism that is the shadow side of of more of a restrictive masculine , which is you have to take control of everything. And it turns out that in many parts of life , you don't have control. And the wisdom to recognize , like in the Serenity Prayer , when you do not have control , which is actually most of the time actually can help point us to taking better care of ourselves and being kinder to others. So compassion and self-compassion is positively linked with mental and physical health outcomes. And the irony of that , in that somehow that some of this tough bravado , isolated Lone Ranger , tough guy , is actually the paragon of male strength couldn't be further from the truth. If we look at major factors around resilience and , you know , basically living a good , healthy , happy life , those ways that we learn to be male are pretty much the exact opposite. It's if it weren't so sad , it would be laughable.
S1: And you know , I heard you when you said that compassion is often looked at as something that is feminine. How much do we need to really change how we define masculinity ? Because it seems as if you would need a little bit of both , right ? A little bit of feminine , a little bit of masculine to be balanced.
S4: I think one of the biggest problems we have is that we call certain human traits masculine or feminine. That immediately puts everyone. But I'll talk about boys and men in this really weird camp , which is to do something , a behavior that is really part of the human spectrum that's seen as feminine already puts you in a bit of a conundrum there. So I really think that we need to actually step back and designate all of these human traits as human , not just male , masculine or feminine.
S1: Baron , I know you wanted to add something. Yeah.
S3: Yeah. And I think to add to that and also what Ryan was referring to earlier about masculinity , there are different endorsements and there's a relative ness. Each individual or each group may define masculinity. And I think part of what we do as therapists is we want to expand what men can be , what men can do. It is not the idea that men can be driven , successful , empowered , that they can work hard. It's not that we want them to act in a deficit way , but when there's a restrictive nature that they believe , they have to believe that they have to be one thing or the other , that they have to be fully responsible if they're not in control , 100% of the time is their fault , is shame , or if they feel that they've shown too much vulnerability , or if they cry too much , then they're less of a man. We want men to be flexible , empowered , engaged. We want them to feel strong in their identity and their sense of self.
S1: Baron , we've heard so much about the mental health struggles of young people the last few years. You work with young people at Penn State University.
S3: Um , we have also the Collegiate Center for Mental Health , where we call data from dozens , if not hundreds , I believe , of , um , university health centers , where we're getting sort of the trends year by year. And we understand that there is a heightened sense of distress and disconnection. We understand that we're now looking at data for discrimination and how different individuals have been impacted in their communities. And so when we're talking about men , we're talking about sort of the same trends that we see with , look , you're experiencing a lot of maybe grief or loss , even following the pandemic. I think we saw some spikes in disconnection and loss. Of experience , as we saw young people and young adults kind of emerge from high school into college and having a number of newest experiences. And so there was also a connection disconnection as it related to like zoom classes or things not being in-person as often. And so we're challenging men to kind of like adapt to the environments they're in. But it's a challenge because not all men feel like they can engage as much. And so we see a landscape that's challenging , but we want to kind of engage our men to engage more.
S1: Coming up , how perceptions of what masculinity is create barriers to wholeness.
S5: So many of the lessons that we learn as boys take important tools off the table for us. So we might learn from a very early age that these emotions are off limits to us , because they are emotions for girls.
S1: More on that. You're listening to Kpbs Midday Edition. You're listening to Kpbs Midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman. Today we are speaking with psychologist about the mental health of men and boys. Dan , one of the topic areas of the conference is on boys in school.
S2: I don't really like the concept of of broken men , but but the statement is apt. And and I think addressing not just earlier in the developmental process when boys are in school because they're younger , but also because there are some nuances about common ways that boys will develop that can make the educational system feel not as welcoming to them. And of course , that bridges out to people of different groups and different ethnicities and different , you know , geographic locations and so on. And so a couple of our speakers will be addressing , looking at boys and schools , of course , underscoring some of the areas of difficulty and talking about in very clear terms , here are some resources. Here are some fact sheets. This is information that teachers , administrators , parents , the the boys themselves can use. But then also addressing gifted and talented boys in schools. So it's not just about remediating deficits. It's more sort of looking at the nuance of what a lot of these boys will be expressing and manifesting and looking at at what's their potential as well. It's pretty it's pretty exciting stuff like , like broad scale with with an eye towards the educational system. There's so much room to make an impact. Yes.
S1: Yes.
S4: I know that's not terribly popular to say in some circles these days is somehow that somehow boys and girls are the same and we should treat everyone exactly the same. But I actually am a strong believer in diversity , which is that you can see differences and appreciate differences and be respectful and see everyone is equal. And amidst the fact there are differences and boys tend to learn a little differently. You know , boys tend to be more kinetic. School isn't always the best environment for boys who are told to sit there and fold their hands and not move too much. And so I think that part of what we're really looking at is how to change at least some aspect of the educational system to fit more the kind of psychology and behavior of boys , rather than treat everyone exactly the same.
S1: You know , another topic being covered by the conference on the Psychology of Men and Boys is anti-racism Baron. What are some challenges men and boys of color are specifically experiencing today ? Wow.
S3: So I'll just refer you to my dissertation. You can read all nearly 200 pages of that , so if we had more time , I could definitely go in depth. But there is a lot of challenges in rearing our boys and men of color. And the one thing I want to kind of note in this conversation is that when we talk about anti-racism , you know , it's really from societal lens that we say , how do we actually impact policy or impact relationship with boys and men and specifically boys and men of color to where they can flourish and to where they're not maybe hitting a wall in their development or a wall in discriminatory practice. Right. So when we look at statistics and we find that , you know , I think there's the old statistic of how , like in Boston , average rate per capita of like wealth in the black community was $6 relative to white individuals. It was $150,000. And so there are huge disparities as it relates to economics or as it relates to men of color's presence in prisons , jails , penal systems , or men obtaining degrees in higher education. And so we've seen sort of kind of a diminished presence in men as it relates to a lot of fields at the PhD level or the master's level. And so in making a society as more anti-racist , we want to make a society that is for the betterment of all peoples , men and men of color specifically. And so in removing kind of those systemic barriers that promote more equity and promote more connection , we want to see kind of men empowered and flourishing. And that through anti-racist practices is kind of how we're viewing it. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. Brian , one of your areas of focus is on positive psychotherapy.
S5: So whereas some approaches to therapy might consider the goal being to end services when depression has been remediated or anxiety has been decreased. We argue that that's only the halfway point , that there's more to life than being symptom free. And so Baron has been talking a little bit about this idea of flourishing. And that's really the argument that from a positive psychotherapy perspective , we work to reduce symptoms , but then we also work to help you to become empowered and kind of build your resources to enhance your wellbeing. And we do that in really specific ways , which include helping you to identify your strengths , helping to increase the frequency with which you experience positive emotions , and helping you to lean into connection. Men and boys in this country are experiencing a pandemic of loneliness and are so incredibly disconnected and so helping men to just find ways to intentionally build relationships or lean into relationships. One of the most important tools we have for helping men to flourish.
S1: Are they're more tips that you have for men listening and looking to improve their mental health.
S5: Well , I think one of the biggest is to acknowledge that seeking help is a strength. Just last week , Elon Musk was on Twitter talking about how he would have on his tombstone that he never once went to therapy. And to me , that's a great sign of weakness. I think that normalizing help seeking is really , really important. Talking with men in your life about the challenges and the struggles , in addition to what's going well , normalizing check ins. I know when I became a new dad , Dan was one of the biggest proponents of this for me. Just like sending me a message like , hey , how's it going ? And then when I would respond with , I'm good , he'd be like , how are you actually doing ? I think that's a really big one. Scheduling time or connection ? Just in the same way we would schedule work or a trip to the gym , um , finding ways to just kind of have good stuff on our radar. So we tend to minimize accomplishments and pay more attention to the never ending list of stuff that we have to do. And so we'll talk a lot at the conference about little things we can do that just improve our radar for the good things that are going on in our day to day , as well as taking ownership of the things we actively made happen.
S1:
S4: And we just saw semi recently where the surgeon general actually said there's an epidemic of loneliness , and loneliness is directly related to poor health outcomes. And so when we think about those poor health outcomes that are correlated with with smoking , like 15 to 20 cigarettes a day , that's quite a clear link that creating more emotional connections is critical to mental and physical health. And so in that regard , really thinking about the importance of connecting and a deeper way , not just superficial , hey , how's it going ? And , you know , let's talk about the Chiefs. Oh no , let's not talk about the Chiefs. So let's talk about whatever. You know there happens. It happens to be. But actually taking the risk of saying hey man , how are you really doing. Just like when Brian was sharing about how how Danny was said , come on , man , seriously , like what is really going on ? And that question itself helped Brian actually either become more aware and or become more honest , you know , with him. And it's really what what I've seen very consistently after leading men's groups for now , for decades , that when men actually open up and reveal themselves to other , they create a much greater sense of connection , because it's really in the intimacy as the fanatic of into me seeing not about sexuality but into me see and say like , yeah , I've had a lousy day for starters. And that was or I'm having difficulty with my wife or my kids drive me nuts , or I'm afraid of losing my job. I don't know if I have enough money to pay the mortgage. You can go on and on and on. People have stressors , you know , in life. And there's an old saying that a problem shared is a problem halved , you know ? And so the more that we actually create a context where men are more open with each other , the better the health comes , are going to be both mental and physical for boys and men.
S1: You know , you say to really go beyond just , you know , how are you doing ? How was your day ? You know , Dan and I spoke last year and I believe we called them bro dates. Yeah , right. These are pro dates. Talk about the importance of those if you can Dan. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. So building off of what Daniel just said about really what everyone has said so far about the healthiest men are able to embrace complexity and can experience balance and flexibility and the parts of ourselves that were aware of and the and that we lean into. I think in the same way that , say , back in the 60s and in the wake of , um , launching title nine and , and different sorts of programs that were specifically focused on what folks understood to be some of the social societal identity underpinnings of what. Girls and women were struggling with what was marginalizing them. I think of it in sort of a programmatic way. If we're going to do something similar with men and boys , then it would be more teaching us how to be more aware of what's going on internal to us , and not just being the external problem solver. To be able to communicate a bit more directly , to see asking for help as just being part of having a team there to support you in a way that the most successful people do. And so I feel like allowing for there to be a more programmatic , like a social norms approach that says , look , this is what people do , including men , and these are some of the typical ways that men have difficulty being fully functioning and flexible and balanced and healthy. That's that's very much my frame about what's called for to help these men and boys connect with themselves and certainly with each other.
S1:
S5: We are taking so many important tools and emotions off the table , and really kind of depriving men of of a large portion of their lived experience.
S1: Daniel , I know there was something you wanted to add to that. There.
S4: There. There is something that's been some kind of shame that's been associated with asking for help or actually even showing compassion. I was I happen to have seen Oppenheimer on my flight back from Australia , and I was I was just struck by when Oppenheimer or even it's like showing kind of kind of compassion for others. Like when Oppenheimer was questioning the president about the use , you know , of the weapons , and then you hear the president saying , well , I don't want to talk to that crybaby , you know , anymore. You know , that somehow being concerned about one's impact , potentially murdering , killing thousands and thousands of people is a sign of weakness , you know ? And that's actually part of what I think on a global level. But certainly in terms of the male mentality that we really , really need to challenge that even peace seeking , which used to be seen as , oh , he's a dove , you know , he's not a war hawk , he's a dove , he's a weak little bird. He's not a tough bird like a hawk. These these themes and memes have been so indelibly imprinted in the national and international psyche about what masculinity is , that it takes a lot to start teasing them apart. And so when you ask the question way earlier , but do we really actually need to change the way we we understand masculinity ? And I said , yeah , like I think the future of the planet is dependent on that. And the more that we can really have these themes and meme spread , like going viral , that it's cool to be compassionate , you know , that it takes it's courageous , actually is it takes courage. And so we can actually tap into some of the values that are seen as masculine and start juxtaposing them with compassion , you know , and self-compassion. I think that's some of the deep work that we need to do. And I know that that's behind when Danny was envisioning the conference and having some conversations about like , that's part of the intention of this conference and having these themes become really widespread.
S1: I've been speaking with psychologist Brian Cole , Daniel Ellenberg , Baron Rogers , Dan Singly , thank you so much to you all. Thank you so.
S5: Much for having us. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. Thank you Jeff.
S3: Thank you so much for the questions and your time.
S2: Jade , thanks very much for having us on it. It means a lot to be able to get the word out.
S1: Thank you so much for your all of your insights. They'll be appearing at this year's conference on the Psychology of boys and Men. That's happening Saturday , March 16th. You can find out more information on that on our website at kpbs.org. Again , thank you all so much for joining us.
