S1: Welcome in San Diego , it's Jade Hindman. On today's show , what First Amendment rights do you have as a protester , regardless of immigration status ? This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation.
S2: No kidding. All right , San Diego , let's go make history.
S1: Over the weekend , we saw no Kings Day protests from San Diego to New York City as part of a nationwide action against President Trump's military parade , and much more. The parade celebrated the U.S. Army's 250th anniversary , and it coincided with President Trump's 79th birthday. In San Diego , some 60,000 people marched through downtown to protest Trump's policies. Here's Wendy Gallant , an organizer with Take Action.
S3: S.D. you organize this because San Diegans from all walks of life are so concerned about the cruelty and the corruption and the authoritarianism of the Trump regime , and we want to preserve our democracy. We want to preserve our rights. We want to stop having people kidnapped off the streets.
S1: Lara Schaefer is from Los Angeles and attended the San Diego No Kings rally.
S4: We're out here because we want people to understand that what they're saying about LA , that there are riots , that there's widespread violence is absolutely not true. And coming up here with my son , part of it is this is about the world that he's going to grow up into.
S1: Well , around 12 different rallies and marches took place throughout San Diego County. Many protesters also took to the streets in response to recent immigration raids throughout Southern California. And on today's show , we wanted to speak with attorneys specializing in the First Amendment and immigration law. About the civil rights of protesters and immigrants , regardless of status. Here with me is Tammy Lynn. She's a professor and supervising attorney for the University of San Diego School of Law immigration clinic. Tammy , welcome back to Midday Edition.
S5: Hi , Jade. Thanks for having me again.
S1: Glad to have you also , David Lee. He's legal director with the First Amendment Coalition in San Diego. David , it's great to have you back as well.
S6: Thank you. Great to be here.
S1: So , David , I'm going to start with you. The First Amendment protects free speech and assembly of rights.
S6: I can't say the same for everywhere , but to my knowledge , the San Diego protests went off completely without a hitch.
S1: Well , let's talk about that. Are those same First Amendment rights being treated in other cities across California and the U.S. the same that they were treated here in San Diego.
S6: I'm most familiar with what's been happening in California and in Los Angeles , for example. There have been recurring protests and recurring abuses of power and excessive use of force by law enforcement officers at the federal , state and local level. To be clear , some few individuals have acted unlawfully by throwing rocks and things at law enforcement vehicles and so on. And if that happens , those individuals can be identified , arrested and prosecuted. But what has happened in Los Angeles is that law enforcement officers have reacted grossly disproportionately. They have fired so-called less lethal munitions at protesters and members of the press who are doing nothing but covering the events. They have trampled people on horseback. They have literally attacked people for no reason. And it's outrageous. Now , I know there are maybe many law enforcement officers who have acted perfectly well. So I'm not here to condemn all law enforcement categorically , but I am here to say that there are documented actions on video and in the media that were absolutely out of line.
S1:
S6: In California , we have statutes on the books that go above and beyond the First Amendment. Minimum California law guarantees specific rights to the press , which says that reporters have the right to cross police lines to not be attacked and assaulted and interfered with in covering the news in public. California has a law that applies to everyone , not just press and public. That significantly restricts the ability of law enforcement to use so-called less lethal munitions , such as chemical agents and kinetic energy projectiles , to disperse or prevent protests. It's not that they can never be used , ever , but that their use is greatly restricted and they're supposed to be the minimally necessary and only in certain circumstances.
S1: Well , Tammy , I want to bring you in here because recent immigration raids were top of mind for many protesters this weekend. In late May , 20 Ice agents raided Italian restaurant Buena Vista during peak dining hours. So how is this approach to immigration enforcement different.
S5: I think what we're seeing in 2.0 is a ramp up and very much kind of making everything much more public , uh , trying to make sure it's aired on the news. And , um , to me , based on kind of what I've seen in the past , very much , uh , an intimidation type of factor going in there. Um , it started after the inauguration. We saw them going after , uh , international students , um , and also any type of speech or type of negative post on any social media. They , you know , they seem to be going after those folks. Um , and it's very troubling. Uh , but it is having an impact , at least in the clientele that I've seen and the people I've talked with. Um , just everyday folks on the streets just worried about even leaving kind of their front door. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. Well , we've also seen people being arrested here in San Diego when attending their immigration hearings in court. That's also a change in approach. Right ? Yeah.
S5: That , um , that was very shocking. And it was done right before Memorial weekend. Um , and the immigration bar came together to immediately go down there to make sure that , uh , even if they weren't their clients , even if they were pro se and unrepresented , that they were at least there was some type of observation about their due process rights. And , um , you know , we've all seen the videos of this going on and it happened all over the country. But I think what was shocking is the fact that what the rhetoric was about going after criminals , but yet they were going after folks that were doing everything right and appearing for their court cases.
S1: You know , over the weekend , Trump ordered an expansion of his mass deportation plan , calling on federal agencies to do all in their power to carry this out.
S5: You know , there was the statement over the weekend that they were going to target a democratic , democratically led major cities. But it's a conflict of what was said even a few days before that where he had mentioned. I don't know if it was a post or he had said it , that they were going to hold back on raids of farms and restaurants and hotels and , you know , any type of , uh , luxury leisure activities that affect tourism. So , um , it seems to be very conflicting messages from this administration , but I think that what happened in May with the raid in South Park has already put everyone a bit on edge.
S1: I mean , Ice can enter public spaces without a warrant , but they do need a warrant to enter private areas. So what are some examples of private areas. Sure.
S5: Sure. And this is a question that really kind of came about after the raid in South Park. But , you know , dining areas , any waiting areas are all considered very much public. But any area that is exclusively for employees only , that public does not have access to. That's very much well marked with a sign. Maybe it says employees only or private areas , kitchens , things like that should be off limits if Ice does not have an actual judicial warrant to enter.
S1:
S6: The First Amendment protects the right of all persons to freedom of speech. That includes individuals and businesses. And yes , they absolutely have the right to speak in their own name. Tami.
S1: Tami.
S5: All of the constitutional rights that are afforded to citizens are afforded to everyone. They have the right to remain silent. They can say that , you know , am I being detained right now ? Um , there's a whole gamut of kind of questions to go through. But most of anything that a lot of attorneys , especially immigration attorneys , have told them is , um , tell them you want to speak to an attorney.
S1: You're listening to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman right now. I'm talking with local attorneys about immigration and First Amendment rights amid recent policies at the federal level. Here with me is David Loy , legal director with the First Amendment Coalition in San Diego. Also Tammy Lynch. She's a professor and supervising attorney for the University of San Diego School of Law. Immigration clinic. David , due process is a fundamental right guaranteed by the Constitution. It requires that every person , citizen and non-citizen receive fair legal treatment.
S6: Um , my office is a First Amendment office for a First Amendment and transparency organization. So it's our our particular mission is not due process. Uh , speaking on my own behalf and not that of First Amendment coalition , certainly we don't object to due process. It's just not in our our organizational wheelhouse. But speaking on my own behalf and not that of fact , um , yes , I'm very concerned about attacks on due process. This administration has openly mocked the idea of due process for people accused of crimes , for people charged with being removable from the United States. Nothing is more fundamental to ordered liberty and to preventing abuse of power than the right to due process of law , and a in that everyone is treated fairly and equally with the right , with the right to counsel , a right to proper procedures , or right not to be locked up and put in a cage or thrown out of the country without full due process of law.
S1: Tammy , what are your thoughts on threats to due process.
S5: Um , you know , I said it after the inauguration , we saw them kind of just inching into what they've been doing lately , and I think it really came to the peak concern during Memorial Weekend with the arrests at the courthouse. Um , for folks that even still had pending cases. Um , and in the objections , you know , against the objections of , of represented counsel telling them you can't actually take my client and detain them , they're still in proceedings. I think we should all be very troubled by it. And we've also been seeing that folks who are U.S. citizens have been detained oftentimes for a while , uh , you know , weeks , months until they can actually prove they're U.S. citizens. Um , and , you know , that might mean they have to present their birth certificates or whatever it is. Um , it's very troubling.
S1:
S5: And I think that what we're seeing with the protests and people are seeing what they're becoming much more aware. Um , all the stuff that's going , been going on has not been anything new. It's been going on for the past six months. But , you know , for example , it's going and taking children from foster care and from foster families who have been caring for them. That's been going on probably since about March or so. I remember talking about that and trying to get people to understand , but I'm seeing much more at play in the public now realizing , oh , this is really happening. So I don't know if there's a disconnect with , um , how the messaging is getting out there or people need to witness it firsthand. But I think that once people are seeing it , we're kind of seeing the result of what happened in this past weekend with the protests.
S6: I'll I'll add on that freedom of speech and freedom of the press are the oxygen of civil society. And when those rights are under attack , everyone should be standing up and speaking out. This is not a partisan issue or should not be a partisan political issue. The right to speak. The right to protest. The right of the press to cover these events and inform the public be the public's and eyes and ears to tell the truth of what is happening. What does it mean to launch , for example , a mass deportation campaign ? Now , whatever one's position on immigration , whatever one's position on on entry into the United States and who should be allowed to stay or remain. The press does an invaluable service to the public by documenting exactly what immigration enforcement looks like. The people have a right and a duty , I would argue , to be fully informed. If people support this administration , they should have to see the consequences of what they're supporting. If people oppose this administration , they should have access to the information necessary to speak out and criticize the actions of the administration. Either way , whatever your political position. Opposition. Freedom of speech , freedom of the press or the oxygen of our ability to function in a democracy. David.
S1: David. Another thing is that , you know , this isn't happening in a vacuum.
S6: And unfortunately , that is not new in this country. You know , our right to freedom of speech is certainly enshrined in the First Amendment , but it's often been honored more in the breach than the observance historically in this country. Which is not to say we've not had freedom of speech ever. I'm to say that it's been deeply contested. What is the extent of that freedom ? Who has the right to that freedom to speak on what causes and on what issues ? And it is not something we should take for granted. The current modern foundations of First Amendment doctrine are barely 60 to 70 years old. Most of it most of the most of modern First Amendment law was forged during the Civil Rights movement. As governments throughout the country , but especially in the South , sought to essentially strangle the civil rights movement in its cradle by stifling their rights to freedom of speech , to protest , to assemble. And that's why many of the leading First Amendment cases of of current law grew out of that movement. And it's , you know , historically speaking , the robust , free , robust freedom of speech that we enjoy today in the United States is relatively new and must be defended at every turn.
S1: Tami , you know , what about when we look historically at attacks to due process rights when it comes to immigration.
S5: Um , it was it's a little bit of a difference. You know , a lot of them were U.S. citizens , but it was just kind of an assumption of a whole class of people as being , uh , the enemies of the state , which is rhetoric that we're hearing from this administration calling it an invasion , enemies of the state. Um , and I think that's very intentional , so that they can use some of these fairly antiquated laws that have not been used and so long to , uh , to kind of go in on and and deprive all folks of their , their due process rights to go before a judge and plead their case. Um , you know , when David was talking about kind of the oxygen of the free speech and those protected rights , I really like that. I think that that's very true. And it made me think back to kind of what we saw going on with the international students and , um , the self-censorship of a lot of folks. Be it folks that are here on visas or undocumented and even some American citizens have very much felt that they have to self-censor themselves. Um , and that always is also very troubling to me , because it's a slippery slope of kind of what this administration is trying to kind of just kind of chip away at in terms of what they can get away with.
S1:
S6: This is the most Transparently authoritarian administration that I can remember ever in this country that I know of in American history. And we've had significant abuses of power by presidential administrations , don't get me wrong. But this administration and this current president has have been open and transparent about their desire to impose their will upon the country and to create , in my view , they want to create an effectively authoritarian state. And that is frightening and should be frightening to anyone that should transcend partisan politics. This is not a difference of policy , you know , what should the immigration laws be ? What should the tax structure be ? You know , should we have tariffs or not have tariffs ? Those are all policy issues that can and should be debated through the democratic process , you know , through Congress , through legislative debate , you know , in debate , in public. Protest rallies , letters to the editor , discussion , what have you and how those issues come out is a product of the political process. My fundamental objection is not to any particular policy. My fundamental objection is to attempting to destroy the ability to have a democratic policy debate at all , and to rule by fiat and rule by will of one man and not rule of law.
S5: And , you know , just thinking on that , in my almost 20 years of immigration practice and specializing with asylum and refugees and representing those folks. Um , this is very much the playbook of what happens in these other countries. Uh , and I think of a lot of my clients who are even U.S. citizens now , maybe having PTSD or Retraumatized by witnessing kind of another place that they fled to , hoping for freedoms , but finding that maybe there's this government that is now , uh , impinging on their ability to to be free and say what they want to say , that they were tortured and hurt. Hurt for in their in their native countries.
S6: It's a deliberate pattern of attack on civil society institutions , the press , the universities , nonprofit organizations. It's not about politics. It's about power. It's about asserting arbitrary and universal power and attempting to intimidate and destroy any institutions which oppose the unchecked use of power. And I'm very I'm I'm frightened by this attack , but I'm also heartened by the resistance to it that regardless of politics , uh , civil society institutions , at least some of them are standing up and fighting back. Law firms , universities , whether I agree or disagree with the positions that those those organizations might take on any given issue. This goes beyond agreement or disagreement. This is about an attack on the very foundation of rule of law and civil society.
S1: I have been speaking with Tammy Lynn. She's a professor and supervising attorney for the University of San Diego School of Law immigration clinic. Tammy. Thank you. Thank you. Also , David Loy , he's legal director with the First Amendment Coalition in San Diego. David. Thank you.
S6: Thank you very much.
S1: That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
