S1: It's time for Midday Edition on KPBS. As Mother's Day approaches , we're talking about the challenges , celebrations and connections that come with motherhood. I'm Jade Hyndman with conversations that keep you informed , inspired and make you think. A new maternal health report highlights where employers have the biggest opportunities to accommodate moms.
S2: It really should be a call to action to move on the policies that we're recommending because they are impacting real people's lives real mothers , real children.
S1: Then , for many people , Mother's Day brings on a mix of emotions from grief to warm memories. We'll talk about how to navigate that. That's ahead on Midday Edition. This Mother's Day will celebrate the vast contributions of mothers and mother figures in our lives. So on our show today , we want to bring awareness to the challenges faced by working mothers. For many , navigating postpartum health care is a constant struggle. And for black working moms , those barriers are even larger. Well , a recent report from the San Diego Black Worker Center dives deeper into these ongoing challenges , from inadequate paid leave to the cultural knowledge gap. Here to talk about it is Brisa Johnson , executive director of the San Diego Black Worker Center. Marissa , welcome to the show. Hi.
S3: Hi. Thank you for having me. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Glad to have you in. Also , Alana Gillette , she is an associate professor at San Diego State University and co-founder of the research consulting firm code , collaborating on dialogue and equity. Alana , welcome.
S2: Thank you so much for having me.
S1: Well , I'm glad to have you both here. Resa. Tell me.
S3: In 2022 , I had the blessing of becoming a mom for a second time around , giving birth to my second son. And unfortunately , the maternity leave policy at my current job had never been used by anyone and so it was completely out of date and at the time would require me to take time off work to physically heal from giving birth without any pay. And then the state leave and paid family leave disability programs that the state of California offers , unfortunately , wouldn't allow me to submit my time off for leave in an adequate time that would allow me to be paid prior to my leave. Um , and so it was such a confusing process to navigate. I was really concerned if I was going to be able to pay my bills. Um , debating on if I'd even be able to have time to bond and breastfeed and be at home with my child. And even if I would have the adequate time to physically heal from giving birth. And I was hitting so many different walls with the systems , as well as the maternity leave policy. And by the grace of God , I work in advocacy. And so I had a lot of resources and connections , and we were able to strengthen and completely change the maternity leave policy within the organization so that I would be taken care of financially , and I wouldn't have to worry about coming back to work immediately , and I would have the adequate , proper time to physically heal from giving birth. And it sparked something in me that if someone who works in the social justice field , who works in worker rights industry , who has access to resources and has advocacy skills , was hitting so many different barriers in trying to get a quality paid maternity leave plan. I can't even imagine how many other mothers , folks that have gone through the birthing process and experience what they were dealing with and what pain and confusion that they were experiencing. And I could totally see how easy it would be to just give up in dealing with so many barriers and just end up going back to work , not only harming yourself , but missing out on that time to bond and and be with your newborn child , which is such a precious time that is so limited.
S1: Yeah , in many ways I can relate to that. Just like I'm sure a lot of folks can.
S2: We do trainings and workshops to really help to push the needle on issues that a lot of people aren't talking about. So I was introduced to Brisa , actually from my husband , Derek Robinson. He did a lot of policy advocacy work , and they were looking for somebody to do the research who had those skills , the qualitative and quantitative skills. But also I have the personal experience. I'm also a mom and had my son in 2021. And so I think between the personal and the professional , I presented to them what I would have planned to do to really bring light to this work. And we agreed on the plan and move forward. And it was a year , a years long worth of work. I talked to many , many women and we also did a survey. And it was it ended up being really , really powerful , um , both from a professional standpoint and also a personal one as well.
S1: So I know , like you said , you talk to a lot of folks who exactly did you survey for this report ? I mean , give me some demographics. Sure.
S2: Sure. Um , so the report is two parts. It's qualitative , which means that we literally spoke to 70 different women across San Diego County , 70 different black mothers and birth givers about their experiences in pregnancy and postpartum in the workplace. And then we use the data that we collected from those focus groups to develop the quantitative survey , which we then sent out. It was actually a national survey , because we wanted to see not only the experiences of those here in San Diego , but also across California and across the nation , so that we could do some comparison and contrasting between different racial demographic groups and also different geographic areas. Of that sample , about 66% was from California and 50% of the sample was black. So it gave us a really good depth and breadth to look at those comparisons , to really show what's happening with black working mothers in comparison to other groups.
S1: All right. Well , let's talk about some of the key findings there of the report. One thing you all looked into was paid maternity leave. What did you find there ? Yeah.
S2: So shockingly , um. Because , as you said , it is paid. Right. California. We're lucky to have our paid family leave. And what we found in our survey across all mothers , 37%. Only 37% , I should say , of mothers actually access this leave. And only 25% of black mothers access paid family leave. And we only looked at those who were eligible for this leave. Um , so we were looking at a very specific sample , and that just shows what Brisa was talking about. There is so much red tape. There are so many , um , roadblocks and challenges that , um , black mothers in particular are facing to access a policy that's already in existence , um , that we should be able to easily access so that we can take our time off , heal from our giving birth and bond with our new , our new babies , and we're not being able to do that. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Brisa , you talked about one of the challenges , um , to getting that and accessing that money. Um , but what are some other challenges ? You mentioned your workplace policy at the time. Are there other things that contribute to that ? Absolutely.
S3: I mean , you know , we're a worker justice organization. And so one of the things that we are focusing on with this report and focusing on in regards to the challenges , is not just making this a health care issue , but acknowledging it as a worker rights issue. And so maternity rights for the most part , especially when you think about the black maternal death rates , um , that are happening in the fourth trimester after giving birth. We look at it from a health care perspective. We look at systemic racism within the health care system. We look at advocacy within health care system resources , funding , and then we totally ignore all the other aspects that add to this issue. And so one of those is also advocating for employers to provide a quality paid maternity leave plan , the same way that employers are required to have paid sick days because of the state of California , the same way they're required to pay a state or city county minimum wage standard of of living. This is the same rhetoric and narrative that we want to build around. Maternity rights is making sure that we're navigating the space as a worker rights issue and encouraging employers to be part of the solution. Because of the challenges that black mothers and birth givers are facing , in particular with requesting the time off from their employers. I mean , we talk about job security as one of those challenges as well. Do I have to give up my position ? Do I have to leave my job ? Will my job and be given away to someone else while I'm on this medical leave ? While I'm I'm physically unable to perform my job duties.
S1: Tell me about that. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. We , um. So this was something that was interesting because it came up a lot in our focus groups. Um , you know , I had one mother share that she was self-employed at the time , um , that she was pregnant with her twins. And it got so bad that she and her twins ended up homeless in a women's shelter. Um , and that's one of if that's her story. But we heard this story in so many different ways through our focus groups. And so we decided in the survey to really dig a little bit deeper in this and what we know from our survey , but also statistics at large , is that self-employment and gig work is growing. It's growing in California , and it's growing across the nation , and especially here in San Diego , where the cost of living is so high. People are having to resort to other ways to make extra money , and within those fields of work , there isn't a clear path towards getting access to to paid leave. And so oftentimes what we're seeing is mothers who are self-employed are working gig jobs , are going back to work 1 or 2 weeks after having babies. And there are just so many risks to to doing that. And we should not be forced into that type of decisions. But we are , because it's financially not feasible for many mothers , especially black mothers and birth givers , to be able to take the time off that that they need. And so we advocate for better systems for that are specific for self-employed and gig workers , that the state and employers are able to help support so that they don't end up in those really terrible situations.
S1: And can you all talk about some of those risks to going back to work too early , because it extends beyond bonding with a child ? Talk a bit more about that.
S2: So the cost of returning to work too soon. I mean there there various right there , diverse things. But what we know , the physical change that happens in women's bodies when they're pregnant and then after they give birth , if you go back to work too soon , you may be dealing with postpartum depression. We had women specifically talk about going back and having brain fog , and not being able to perform certain tasks that they were able to perform in the past , and being questioned about that from their employers. And so then it creates this kind of cycle of women , especially black mothers , being looked at as not doing their jobs well enough and maybe being passed up for promotions and things like this. And so it has this financial strain in the long term. But also we looked at workplace lactation , for example. We know the both the economic benefit as well as the bonding benefit of being able to breastfeed our children. And the workplace also has very , very significant drawbacks on that as well. And this only goes up if you go back to work too soon , especially within that first four weeks postpartum or that that fourth trimester postpartum.
S1: And there's also , as Alana just mentioned , major lactation barriers for working mothers.
S3: In addition , it's supposed to be paid. It's not supposed to be time that's taken out of their paycheck. It's not supposed to be used as their breaks or their lunch break. But unfortunately , there's a lot of employers who either one don't know that these laws exist , or to know and just abuse the fact that maybe the employees don't know. And so what we find happening more times than not is that women are not given the adequate time to pump , and they're not even given a private space to pump. We've had employers not provide the privacy space and have had their employees then go to bathrooms and try to pump , on a stall which is , is is not only , you know , unsanitary to the process , but it's uncomfortable. Something that is so intimate , something that is very vulnerable. The other thing that we've we found to in our conversations and , and one of the reasons why this also has become part of our data and research is that people weren't given the proper time. And so we had employees actually ask , you know , hey , I need to pump. And employers say , do you have to do that right now ? Like , can you wait ? Not understanding how the physical body works , not understanding the pain that then comes when you don't pump at a specific time , and also how that then hinders your breast milk supply from not being able to pump on a regular basis , which then ultimately becomes a financial burden on the family. If they're not able to breastfeed and pump breast milk and then lose their supply because they don't have the adequate time , the privacy and the space to do it , and then end up having to resort to moving to formula. Which formula is totally okay if that's the choice that you are willing to make , or if you're , you know , physical body hasn't been able to produce milk. But when that choice is then taken from you , it becomes a heavy burden , um , not only financially , but emotionally for mothers who did want to go the breastfeeding route. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And Alana , black women also experience high risk pregnancies at a much higher rate than white women.
S2: And there are also no extra protections that protect black infants who end up in the NICU at a much higher rate than white infants. And so what we are advocating for are not only policies to extend paid maternity leave , but also to extend it for these specific scenarios that impact black mothers at a higher rate than other mothers. Because this only grows the disparity even more than we are already experiencing as we see it now.
S1: Well , let's let's talk more about that in zero in on the solutions.
S2: Uh , right now in California , we have eight weeks of paid leave , and we're advocating for that to jump up to 6 to 12 months. We know that this is what is needed. Um , there's other countries who have similar policies. We have recommendations from the CDC that say that there is this time needed. Um , and so that's what we're advocating for. And we would love for San Diego to be at the forefront of pushing these types of progressive policies. Um , another big one. Brisa talked about it earlier. Uh , with workplace lactation , we do have laws that are already in existence , but there are gaps. Right now , the current California law says something like , um , that you can deny breaks if the employer claims serious disruption. Um , so all of a sudden , you have a law that allows women to access a private , clean space for breastfeeding , but it could be denied if x , Y , and Z. So we need to eliminate loopholes like that , um , that are causing the most harm to the most marginalized populations.
S1: And so what projects are you all working on to address these issues in San Diego County ? Yeah.
S3: So one of the projects that we're working on is we're in partnership with the Office of Labor Standards and Enforcement here in San Diego , and we have been working with them to provide an agency that can actually hold these laws accountable and create a ultimately , policies that provide a consequence for employers who are not meeting the standards that are already set in place. So providing for , for example , around lactation support , providing privacy and a space clean space for women to breastfeed , allowing them adequate time that is paid to do so. Um , what happens when the employer does not meet these current laws in place ? What is the accountability policy that could be put in place by the county that will hold them , whether it's a denial of permits , denial of , you know , the things needed to keep the business operating that run through the county and through the city. How can we then put a mandate that unless you are meeting these criterias in this meeting these laws and protecting these employers , how can we then ultimately prevent you from continuing to operate your business ? And ultimately , we know that many of them again. There's some businesses especially we find this with small businesses where it's just a lack of knowledge. But with larger corporations , we have found that it is an abuse of power. We also want to be providing education for employers. And so we are going to actually be hosting a series of workshops that will not only educate people on our report and policy recommendations , but will actually be sitting with employers and asking them to adopt some of our policies and teaching them about current laws on the book already around maternity rights and how they can better enforce them.
S1: Are there ways that employers , or even just people in the village right , can show up for black mothers and support better.
S2: I think the first thing is to read the report. Yeah. No , I mean , seriously , I think , you know , when we when we did the report launch for this , um , one of the questions I asked everybody was , you know , who's in the room ? What power do you have ? So I think first , sitting down and thinking about your own role in your life , professional or personal. And if you feel that you have any way to move the needle on this type of work , speak up about it. Whether you're a black mother or not , whether you're a mother or not. Um , so , you know , look into the report and see how you can use some of the data that we have spent a year collecting to push a needle in your particular workplace. If you see something , say something. Um , so many of the stories that we heard were a black mother having one experience and a white mother in her same organization , having a different experience. So if you are that white mother and you see that happening , speak up to your employer. So there is so many ways beyond , you know , changing laws that we as individuals can push the needle forward. And I think more , more people need to put themselves in the shoes of others and try to start making those shifts and changes. Um , otherwise this will just be another report out of many , and we really don't want that to happen.
S1: Bruce , a final word. Yeah.
S3: Yeah. I think , you know , to , uh , Doctor Alana's point , I think there really is a call for collective responsibility here. You know , black folks are less than 6% in the county and city of San Diego. So to move any policy that is centered around black folks is going to take a larger demographic of people pushing this agenda and applying that pressure. And so collective responsibility is something that I'm hoping will come out of this report. I'm also hoping that employers will start to , through our conversations , through this report , through our one on ones and however this continues to grow. That employers will also take on that collective responsibility as well of how they can create more safe working environments. Um , not only for black mothers , but for working families. You know , children are such a huge part of our culture and our community , and yet somehow we still don't center childcare and we don't center their nutrition , and we don't center their growth and their development. And yet these are all things that we want. You know , we want to be with our families. We want to be with our kids. And yet we eliminate them from our workspace. We eliminate them from the events that we do. We they're just not thought of. And so I hope that employers will center not only black mothers and the vulnerable , um , experience that they are having , but just the idea of how do we take care of families as a whole , how do we show up for community as a whole ? And I think that's what we've lost , not only in this current climate , but in our individualism , ism is we have just lost a huge sense of showing up for community and taking care of community and ultimately being a part of the community. And the best way to be a part of the community is not to just read the report , but share it. Engage with it using your privilege , using your platforms. We all have one , and figuring out how you could take your platforms to open up a door just a little bit wider for somebody else.
S1: Lots of valuable information in this report , and you can find a link to the Black Worker Center's maternal health report on our website , KPBS. I've been speaking with Teresa Johnson. She's the executive director of the San Diego Black Worker Center. Brisa , thank you so much.
S3: Thank you.
S1: And also , Alana Deloitte , associate professor at San Diego State University and co-founder of the research consulting firm code , which stands for Collaborating on Dialogue and Equity. Professor , thank you so much.
S2: Thank you for having me.
S1: Coming up , how to navigate grief on Mother's Day.
S4: Acknowledging and allowing our grief is really important. Allowing yourself to embrace the pain , to feel sadness or anger or whatever emotions arise.
S1: Hear more when KPBS Midday Edition returns. Welcome back to KPBS Midday Edition I'm Jade Hindman. Mother's day is coming up this weekend , and for many , it's a joyful holiday , but it's also one that can bring up complicated feelings of grief and loss. Some people take the day to honor a late loved one , while others may be struggling to help a friend experiencing loss. Regardless of your situation , these things are difficult to navigate and difficult to talk about , so I wanted to invite a professional on the show today. I'm joined now by Doctor Laurie Rapoport. She's a licensed clinical psychologist based in Carmel Valley. Doctor Rapoport , thanks for being here today.
S4: Thanks for having me.
S1: So of course there's there's no how to guide for grief. But if someone is going through that this Mother's Day what are some things you'd want to say to them.
S4: Well exactly what you just said. There is no how to. And we all grieve differently. Um , so acknowledging and allowing our grief is really important. Um , allowing yourself to embrace the pain , to feel sadness or anger or whatever emotions arise. It is a natural process when you're grieving and it's really okay to feel what you're feeling. And sometimes we don't feel what we expect to feel. Um , especially on a particular holiday or anniversary or significant day. Many people often say that it's other days that they find that those waves of grief hit them because of a song or some other kind of memory that isn't necessarily specific to a holiday , but on a holiday , it can bring up a lot of emotions and a lot of feelings. And it's important for people most important to have a plan. Sometimes when you don't plan what's going on and you're not thinking ahead , you can often get hit with this feeling of panic about what you should be doing in that moment. So sometimes thinking through how you might want to spend that time is an important thing to consider. Hmm.
S1: Hmm.
S4: And self-care , right ? We have to be aware when we're feeling certain emotions and they're pretty big. We have to recognize that grief can be emotionally draining. Um , and understanding that and prioritizing self-care and self-compassion is very important. So that would mean engaging in activities that you enjoy. You might be spending time reading or listening to music , maybe going for a walk or doing something with other people. Um , so sometimes creating an experience with others can be helpful for some people. Being away from others is helpful. Sometimes they want to take a quiet day to themselves and not be part of a celebration or a get together , and that's okay too. Um , sometimes we plan to go with people and have a plan , and then in the moment that day , it doesn't feel okay. Trust your gut. Trust your instincts. Right. Other people may want you to come along , and they're very well meaning. And they may say , oh , come be with us. Go to dinner with us. And the invitations are wonderful. But if that's not how you're feeling in the moment , don't satisfy other people's feelings because you think you're supposed to. Right. Do what feels right for you. Um , you mentioned earlier on about friends and how can you help someone ? The best way to help someone is not to assume you know how they're feeling. For some people , Mother's Day isn't a sad day. It might be a special day. They might do an activity that reminds them of their mother. They might engage in some cooking or go to a special place that they remember that they used to go with their parent. Um , so those things , it may be a very special day. And if you call and say , oh , I know today is so difficult for you and it's so hard , you may bring them down because they weren't feeling that way. So a great thing to do is check in with them and say , hey , thinking about you , checking in to see how you're feeling today or you're on my mind today. I wonder how your morning is going so far , so that we're not assuming that it's necessarily a sad negative day. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. But does does even that much sort of trigger feelings of grief , even if for a friend to say , hey , thinking of you today and just checking in.
S4: Well , I can guarantee you it's funny. You know , we're not a very grief literate society , and we often are worried about saying anything to someone who's grieving because we don't want to make them feel bad. People who are grieving think about their loved one. All the time , memories come up so you don't have to ask them or say anything for them to be thinking about that person. Um , but you're acknowledging that they're having a loss or that it's a significant day for them , right ? And they appreciate that you check in with them. So I think that it's really okay to allow a grieving person to share how they're doing. Um , they may say that they're having a great day , which is wonderful , but it's nice that you check in with them and they feel cared for. Mm.
S1: Mm.
S4: I mean , obviously , for one , is sharing memories , right ? Sharing stories , maybe photos with other family or with someone , or even on your own. Just looking through and thinking about that. Um. Buying flowers. You know , we often bring flowers to our mom. Um , but you can buy yourself some flowers. Maybe flowers your mom loved. And having them around certainly is a reminder and something special. Um , sometimes , as I mentioned before , revisiting places or reliving memories that you had with your mom , like a special place you went to or a restaurant , um , or making her favorite meal. Um , you know , there's a population of people I don't want to forget on Mother's Day , which are mothers that lost their children. Um , and in those , it made me think of a group of moms that , uh , were part of an ongoing support group. And every Mother's Day they would get together and they would cook the favorite meal from their child or something that their child liked and share that among everyone. Um , so those are some things that you can do. You can spend time in nature. Write someplace that you might have thought about them. Nature is a really calming , uh , environment. Um , maybe go to a bench they used to sit on or a place that they used to like to visit. Um , another thing that people do a lot is plant something , right ? Planting something is like a rebirth , a new beginning , and you get to see it grow over years. So sometimes honoring your person , your mom , by giving back to the earth , right in honor of them and creating something that you can visit and watch grow. Um , over time , there are some people who like to visit the gravesite and others who don't want to do that , but but light a candle and do something and think about them. Um , but I think the other thing to remember is that sometimes it's a really hard day for some people. And don't be afraid to seek support , to reach out to a friend or family member or a therapist or a support group just for some extra support and connection. Um , sometimes it really helps to connect with other people that have experienced a very similar thing.
S1: So you mentioned mothers , you know , who have lost children or experienced pregnancy loss. Can you talk about some challenges they may face on Mother's Day ? Yes.
S4: Thank you for asking. That is a group that often we don't know what to say to them. So we avoid saying anything at all. Um , and especially , you know , if these are moms who have surviving children , um , we think that that's still okay , then they're fine and they're not fine. It doesn't matter if they have 15 children. If you lose one , um , it's still very painful. Um , and particularly for moms who have had a miscarriage , um , oftentimes they're not even acknowledged as , as having a loss , um , when in fact , you know , that is a very big loss and one that is so hard because others don't recognize it. So I think , you know , when we talk about checking in and just seeing how people are doing and how their day's going , we don't want to make assumptions about how they're going to feel , but we do want to let them know we care and we're checking in. And how's their day going ? Um , and it will give them an opportunity to share if they want to , where they're at. Right. And and that will give us a better gauge of if they're needing some support or feeling good or , or how they're handling that day.
S1: Um , you know , also , one of the challenges with grief can be , uh , Worrying that a loved one's memory will be forgotten.
S4: And the reality is that our memory isn't as strong , and there are certain things we don't remember as clearly over time. Um , the fortunate part is that if you have lost someone in a traumatic way or in an extended illness , um , we often only remember those times in the beginning , and that fades and we get back some of the really nice memories and things to remember about them. Um , but those are , you know , often things that are triggered by , um , places that we go or like holidays where we start to recall and remember those memories. And sometimes when people are really worried about losing things or not remembering , they keep a journal and start to write down and share to themselves stories and memories that they have that they don't want to forget. And often when we write in a journal and it's in our own words , when we go back and read them , it triggers those memories much more clearly and quickly because they are our own words. So that is something that , you know , someone can start even on Mother's Day as as a way to honor their their mom is to start a journal and start to remember stories. And as they remember , either on other Mother's Day or other times. Add to that so they have a book of memories.
S1: Great idea.
S4: right ? Give. Give yourself permission to decline an invitation. If it sounds like something that just would not be the best for you in that day. Um , but I don't think that there's something to tell people who are planning a celebration to do or not do , because they're worried that it might impact someone in a negative way. Because , again , we all grieve differently. And so it's hard to know what will feel okay to someone and not to someone else. Um , it's usually not these kinds of celebrations in of themselves that cause people to feel bad. Oftentimes it's things they can't predict. Grief comes out of a connection to something , and we can't always know when that's going to happen. So I think for the grieving person , it's feeling okay and giving themselves permission to say , no , thank you , but try me again next time. I appreciate the invite. Um , and to be inclusive and not assume they wouldn't want to come to dinner because they lost their mom , right ? Sometimes we avoid and don't invite people because we worry that will be uncomfortable for them , but we should let them make that choice.
S1: Great advice. I've been speaking with Doctor Laurie Rapoport. She's a licensed clinical psychologist based in Carmel Valley. Doctor Rapoport thank you so very much.
S4: Oh you are very very welcome. And I wish everyone a happy Mother's Day.
S1: Happy Mother's day. That's our show for today. I'm your host Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
