MICHEL MARTIN, Host:
Now, you've heard the expression, it's lonely at the top. Well, today, we want to talk about how incredibly lonely it is for the very few women who rise to the top of the corporate ladder, especially black women. There are only 13 women CEOs at Fortune 500 companies, none are African-American. And a study by the nonprofit group Catalyst reported that only 5.9 percent of women corporate officer positions were held by African-American women. White women held 89 percent.
MARTIN: Ladies, welcome. Thank you all so much for speaking with us.
CAROL EVANS: Thanks for having us on.
DENISE BECKLES: Thanks a lot.
CYNTHIA GOOD: Hello. Glad to be here.
MARTIN: Cynthia, I want to start with you, because it's kind of a provocative topic. It's not like the corporate world is overburdened with women of any color in the top ranks. What made you want to publish this piece?
GOOD: And these women were saying, at the end of the day, what really frustrates them is that they don't have the support they'd like to have when moving up through the ranks within the organization from other women - from white women. And so this was something we really wanted to explore, even though it's a sensitive topic, as you said.
MARTIN: Denise, is this an issue that other African-American corporate women discuss when they're together?
BECKLES: I have heard the same concern and a hesitancy, almost, from the African-American women to step out and reach across the line, so to speak. So this is a huge opportunity for some bridge building.
MARTIN: Carol, I have to talk to you, because Working Mother Media isn't just for mothers per se. I mean, you talk about executive women and the issues confronting executive women...
EVANS: Mm-hmm.
MARTIN: ...regardless of their parenting status.
EVANS: Yeah.
MARTIN: And you hold seminars around the country that address issues of concern to women executives. Does this issue come up, the question of whether women across color lines are supporting each other?
EVANS: When they find out that they need to earn that trust, boy, it's a big revelation. It's a very painful revelation for them, first of all, but they really want to make that leap because they assume they're part of the good guys.
MARTIN: Well, why do they need to, would be my question.
EVANS: And then, when we realize that, in some ways, women of color feel about white women the way white women feel about men - in other words, that we're not that helpful. That's where this leads to the issue of we've really want to change that perception. We don't want to be on the wrong side of that equation. So it's also a very good thing...
GOOD: This is why - I think it's true. I think what a lot of women just aren't aware of that this is a pretty serious issue, I think.
MARTIN: Cynthia, go ahead. Expand on which - that point if you would.
GOOD: Well, I mean, and some, you know - to add onto what Carol was saying, I mean, some of the people we interviewed for this article went so far as to say that black women are treated by white women almost as - and we have a quote. This doesn't come from me. It's hired help, and that's the way they're viewed. And, you know, they talk about the glass ceiling being the (unintelligible). But for African-American women, it's often at the clerical level. Women are leaving these positions, they're opening companies six times the rate as everybody else. And I think the thing that really scares me is this is not the blatant racism that we saw in years past. This is something that is more insidious. It's something that's unspoken. It's something that may not even be conscious, which to me is almost more dangerous.
MARTIN: And, well, I hope to say, Cindy, you're not just - you don't just have a quote in this in your article. You have an on-the-record quote. By a...
GOOD: Yeah, a number of them, actually. You're right. Yes.
MARTIN: ...yes, by a woman who works for Home Depot, the Home Depot, a major company who says that white women don't have parity with white men, but they're a rung above women of color on the ladder. White men in corporate America look at white women and see their wives, mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts, daughters, nieces, granddaughters. In contrast, she says, many of the same men still see women of color as clerks, and some white women secretly view black women as the hired help.
GOOD: Right. And is that your sense of it, too, Denise? Do you see that, too?
EVANS: Well, what I want to offer is that I believe that on both sides, there's things that we don't know we don't know.
GOOD: Right.
BECKLES: And I think this is a great opportunity to continue to dialogue around this topic, because it is very real. In my work with developing diversity competencies and diversity strategy and helping companies work towards filling that pipeline and retaining people of color, they awareness piece is critical. Because unless they have an understanding of what the pockets of issues are, they will not be addressed.
MARTIN: Well, Denise, it sounds like - just to further your point, you're saying that African-American women have a responsibility, too. What are some of the things...
GOOD: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...that they could be doing to reach across?
BECKLES: Oh, absolutely. I think it's important for us to connect with our senior leadership, our women, our white women in our organizations - take that step, take that initiative. And I'm not saying that there's women of color who don't. But for me, with the aspirations that I have, it's imperative that I make as many connections as I can, not just with white women, but many types of mentors to be able to develop that strategy to get where it is I want to go. Unless that's communicated, our senior leaders or our leaders really don't know how to help us. And that information is critical. Yeah.
MARTIN: But Carol, I have this question. Why women, per se - I mean, we've pointed out that there are only 13 female CEOs, 11 are white, two are Asian- American. You know what that means? Yes.
BECKLES: Well, that means that the vast majority are men.
MARTIN: Yes.
BECKLES: So the question now is why are we asking this question about why women aren't being more supportive of women in the workplace, as opposed to the overwhelming majority of corporate officers who are men? I mean, why shouldn't men have to do more mentoring?
EVANS: They really need to be. And it's not just that we're talking about women, but women may be the easiest path to helping each other get ahead. Oh, yeah, because look at the low level of trust that we have of men. Men still are perceived as much of a barrier to advancement for women in general, and we just don't want white women to be aligned with men on that. Of course, many, many men are in the position of being able to help, being able to mentor and being very, very willing.
MARTIN: Cynthia, I'd ask the same question, though. Is it - the response - you know, why is, why should white women feel a responsibility to be helpful to African- American women?
GOOD: And look, if one of you wins, I can be more successful because of that. And we really operate from a perspective of abundance. The more success there is, and more success there will be for all of us. And, you know, it would be nice to see more women of color, specifically more black women, rise up through the ranks. Because there was a huge inequity there that I don't think has done adequately addressed to date.
MARTIN: Denise, you did write this sidebar, and I want to hear more about it...
BECKLES: Yes.
MARTIN: ...but I do want to hear about a mentoring relationship that you have had, and I wanted to ask, you know, how did it start, and how's it going?
BECKLES: And I want to say is that the relationship is key, and it takes time. So we spent time together. She made a committed effort. She followed through. When there were opportunities that came down the line, she was at the table. She had my interests at the table. And she stayed in touch with me and gave me some guidance on some things I needed to do, some classes that I could take. So the mentoring relationship is one that's very important and has made all the difference in my career.
MARTIN: Okay, but Denise, I still need to go back to my first question, which is why should they do this? Why should a company do this?
BECKLES: Because it's a business imperative. We look at the business needs first. And with the changing demographics, the talent pool that is shrinking, it's important that every employee that steps into an organization is able to bring their whole self to work and contribute 100 percent.
MARTIN: Okay. It's really the same argument...
BECKLES: Because that is what's needed for an organization to be successful.
MARTIN: Okay.
EVANS: It's really the same argument about why we needed to bring women into the workforce in this country. We have been strong. This country has been so strong because of the contribution of women over the last 30 years. And, you know, if women couldn't have babies and stay in their jobs, we would have lost almost all of that contribution. Same thing here, the talent pool is there.
GOOD: I mean, in just looking at the bottom line, I mean, you all are familiar with the catalyst data that Fortune 500 companies with more women in top positions have a higher - 34 percent higher total return to shareholders. But I've talked with CEOs of major corporations who have told me point blank that they have lost major pieces of business because they did not have the customer reflected at the table. So if you're trying to do business with a client and you don't have diversity, you're going to lose the business. So at the end of the day, you know, if you want to talk to the organization, it comes down to the bottom line.
MARTIN: Cynthia, you commissioned this piece, or at least got this piece from Denise about what we can do or what people should be doing, and you have five actions white women can take and five actions women of color can take. So if I could just go around and ask each of you to offer one or two thoughts about what you get the people should be doing.
BECKLES: Okay.
MARTIN: Cynthia, why don't you start?
BECKLES: Some of the specifics, opportunity - white women have to go out of your way to be a mentor for a woman of color, attending an event outside of your specific community in an ethnic neighborhood with a woman of color, get to know her needs, get to know her struggles, and always to be the voice for those who are not in the room, to challenge the status quo. We're now in a position we can begin to do that.
MARTIN: Denise? What are one or two things that women can do to reach across the divide?
BECKLES: I think the courageous thing that women can do is to make sure that they're strengthening their diversity, leadership competencies. That means, you know, what is it that I need to do to become an authentic, leader so that I can mentor and truly develop people of color, and all people?
MARTIN: Carol, you've offered us a couple of ideas. Any other thoughts about what it is that people should do?
EVANS: Sure. We have a saying at Working Mothers, says what color is your rolodex? Look at your team and say, is it diverse in the way that you'd like it to be? If not, reach outside of your own community and then add that in as an important element to your own team.
MARTIN: Ladies, thank you all so much for speaking with us.
BECKLES: Thanks, Michel.
GOOD: Thanks, Michel.
EVANS: Thank you so much. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
