Mayor Todd Gloria talks upcoming ballot measures

S1: Mayor Todd Gloria talks about the impact of the heat wave on the homeless.

S2: We recognize that this impacts really all of us , but there's an acute impact on those who are not able to take shelter.

S1: I'm Maureen CAVANAUGH with Jade Heineman. This is KPBS Midday Edition. As the drought expands , the threat to San Diego's water supply increases.

S3: Hotter temperatures leading to earlier snowmelt , dry soils all translating into earlier and low runoff.

S1: A joyful resolution to the case that inspired the creation of the California Innocence Project. And a U.S. boon for Bollywood. Indian films capture a U.S. audience. That's ahead on Midday Edition. The Labor Day weekend is traditionally the point where campaigning heats up for the November elections , and the city of San Diego has several big ballot measures coming up , including a proposed fee for trash pickup and removing the 30 foot height limit for redevelopment in the Midway District. And this month , the city council will decide if they agree with Mayor Gloria's pick of the Midway Rising proposal for that sports arena development. Mayor Todd Gloria joins us once again to talk about those issues and give us an update on the city's homeless outreach efforts. And Mayor Gloria , welcome to the program.

S2: Thank you for having me.

S1: This city got the bad news from the point in time homeless count earlier this year that despite new city outreach and shelter programs , the number of unsheltered homeless people had increased in San Diego.

S2: Every city is dealing with this , including San Diego. I think what's different is how we're choosing to react. Today , I shared in my monthly media briefing the results of our intensified outreach efforts across the city. What we've been able to do in the last year , doing twice a month concentrated efforts is serve over 1700 unsheltered San Diegans. Maureen , did you put it in some context ? The city previously just performed these kinds of task once a year. As I mentioned , we're doing it twice a month. And this is in addition to our daily outreach efforts. These outreach is critical because this is how we overcome the trust issues that often cause people to decline shelter services. That outreach leads to shelter , and then it results in permanent housing placements. Our city has placed over 700 individuals into permanent housing solutions through a result of this housing shelter help outreach approach. And we have to continue doing this work. What I'm challenged by as mayor is the lack of affordable housing , the increasing numbers of mental health issues , specifically addiction issues. And we just have to continue working as hard as we are. What we would benefit from is additional efforts by other regional cities and other communities that have problems as big as ours. While our number was increased. Other cities in the county saw significantly higher increases in their homelessness. And May those folks might find themselves in the city of San Diego , taking up shelter placements here in our city. Every city has to do their part. And we had a meeting earlier in the summertime with other fellow mayors , encouraging them to do their part , too.

S1: Now we're in a prolonged heat wave right now.

S2: I want them to understand that generally our libraries and our rec centers , they are open now and we encourage people to go there. But particularly for our unsheltered population , this is a perfect reason to accept a shelter placement. The streets are not good any day of the week. They're particularly bad during a heat wave like this. And so these cool zones that we have are wonderful. The shelters are even better. And then beyond that , Maureen , what we've asked city staff to do is as we perform our outreach efforts , some of our cleaning efforts that we're providing bottles of water directions to the call zones , we recognize that this impacts really all of us. But there's an acute impact on those who are not able to take shelter. But again , I would plead with those individuals , move to a call zone , accept shelter assistance , get off the streets. It's not a safe place to be.

S1: Now , you recently sent out a press release praising the passage of Governor Newsom's care court proposal. And that , of course , could require some homeless people to get mental health treatment.

S2: Many of your listeners probably get very frustrated seeing people who are obviously extremely mentally ill acting out in public and nothing seems to be done about them. I mean , that's not for want of trying. Many of these individuals interact daily about multiple times a day with police officers , the firefighters , the paramedics , and with homeless outreach workers. But under our current system , if they decline those services , that is their right. And they can continue to be in the public without getting care. And that really results in extreme risk to their well-being as well. Extreme cost to taxpayers. CARE Court is designed to focus on what we believe is roughly the 12,000 most severe in our state. Folks who have a significant mental illness , often substantial substance use problems , but who currently decline services. And you make mention of the requirement for them to accept services. The CARE Court also creates a requirement on those of us in government to serve. So it's not enough to say we tried. We're not going to prioritize them. Instead , what it says specifically to counties is they must prioritize the severely mentally ill. This is a game changer. This is a paradigm shift , and this has the potential to be able to take those roughly 12,000 I've talked about before , the most severe of severe cases and get them into care.

S1: Now , speaking of housing. The City Council will be voting soon on which of three proposals is right for the sports arena redevelopment. And your choice is the Midway Rising plan. I believe it's because it includes the most affordable housing units. But KPBS metro reporter Andrew Bowen pointed out to me that the city required each proposal to include a new or renovated sports arena stadium at the site.

S2: Well , the fact is that San Diego is a major American city , and we do need a venue like our sports arena. The problem is our current sports arena is outdated and needs replacement. We're seen as a solution of multiple problems. So in the Midway Rising proposal , not only does it have the most amount of housing and the most amount of affordable housing , but also has the largest arena absent this arena redevelopment. We might not be talking about even doing anything on that site , but what we've been able to do is to solicit global interest in these properties. We had many incredibly well-qualified , thoughtful proposals , but at the end of the day , Midway Rising provides what is my priority the most amount of new housing , over 4000 units , half of which more than half of which are for low and middle income San Diegans. But it also achieves that goal of having a new arena , which is important for our local economy. This is going to create thousands of jobs , tons of economic opportunities and frankly , arts and cultural opportunities for San Diegans to enjoy.

S1: Even when the new snapdragons stadium is just opened , we need a new sports arena.

S2: Well , these are different venues , right ? That venue is owned by the state of California for the purposes of SDSU. And you have other outdoor activities , great things like the San Diego Wave and others will be there. But this isn't an indoor opportunity , but we don't have an indoor venue of this size and the size is important , right ? The other proposals had smaller venues that I don't believe will be able to attract the kinds of opportunities that we'd like to have in our city. But the fact is , is that we have long had a stadium and a sports arena. Both of them have been successful. We have a new stadium. It is also time to have a new arena. This proposal will deliver that for San Diego.

S1: I mentioned the ballot measure and that's asking voters to remove the 30 foot building height limit in the Midway area to allow that development to take place.

S2: I think that San Diegans are understandably frustrated by a current trash collection system. It's one that is very disjointed. You have multiple providers in the same community , different level of service. Frankly , Maureen , maybe your listeners can relate to this , that trash cans get broken and busted and then folks have to pay to actually replace them. You know , this current system is outdated. It reflects what San Diego was 100 years ago , not what it is today. This measure does not implement a fee , but it does allow the council and the community to start dialogue on what we would like to see , how we would like this to operate in the 21st century. I think our obligations around recycling and green waste and composting really means that we have to engage in this conversation , and I'm hopeful that we can do that. At the end of the day. Maureen , I believe that we can create a better situation with better services , higher levels of service that will make citizens lives easier , not the least of which is not having to deal with this current mess when it comes to replacing trash cans.

S1: Now , the Voice of San Diego points out a confusing situation that's developed over sandbags , regional transportation plan that's been submitted to the state Air Resources Board. It includes a plan to introduce a road user fee. But after voting for the plan that included the fee , you said you opposed the fee and asked staff to come up with something better. But the fee is in the plan and sandbags. Executive Director is apparently moving forward with developing a pricing structure.

S2: I am opposed to the road usage charge for the San Diego region because I believe it's unnecessary and ineffective. The confusion stems from a sequencing of issues. We understood that we were pressed to adopt a regional transportation plan on a timeline to preserve access to state and federal funds. We completed that process and then immediately provided direction to SANDAG staff to set about amending that same plan to remove the road usage charge that has been directed to staff on multiple occasions with strong votes of the Board of directors. And while there may be confusion of how we've gotten to this date , there is no confusion about the will of the board , which is to amend the RTP to remove the road usage charge. This direction to staff has been crystal clear. This is not their call. It is the call of the Senate that board and we are resolute in asking for this to be removed and to. Make sure that we're acting in other parts of the plan which are implementable over the timeframe of this current RTP.

S1: Okay , then I've been speaking with Mayor Todd Gloria. As always , Mayor , thank you so much for your time.

S2: Thank you for yours.

S1: Local water managers say San Diego County is mostly protected from the drought that's squeezing water supplies in California and the western United States. But KPBS environment reporter Eric Anderson says the region is not immune to the megadrought punishing the West.

S4: San Diego County's 11 main reservoir is an anomaly in the West. The manmade lake is pretty much full. The reservoir is a 24,000 acre reservoir that provides water to the two aqueduct. Now , Deer Big says that's a year's worth of water for about 60,000 families. He's an operator here , moving water in and out of the reservoir located near Escondido. This lake was built to help the region cope if imported water gets cut off. San Diego County Water Authority officials say the emergency water is just one tool they've developed over three decades to keep local water taps running.

S3: We are secure , but we still need to do our part because these hotter and drier conditions are our foreseeable future.

S4: The Authority's Kelly Rogers says raising the San Vicente Dam building , the Carlsbad desalination plant and water rights deals with the Imperial Irrigation District all play a role. Rogers says the projects are expensive but vital.

S3: It's like your retirement. When you're younger , you're like , Oh gosh , I may never need that , but when you're retired , you're like , Wow , all of the investments are paying off.

S4: But San Diego isn't completely insulated from a climate change driven drought that is strangling water flows in the Colorado River basin. The Bureau of Reclamation Commissioner says all of the West's main water sources are suffering. Camille Quinlan Tune painted the situation in stark terms during a Senate committee hearing in July.

S3: Hydrologic variability , hotter temperatures leading to earlier snowmelt , dry soils all translating into earlier and low runoff. This is coupled , as the committee has mentioned , with the lowest reservoir records on record.

S4: The bureau has twice called for Colorado River users to cut back the amount of water they take and to show lawmakers more drastic cuts are needed.

S3: Between two and 4 million acre feet of additional conservation is needed just to protect critical levels in 2023.

S4: The critical levels she's talking about are water levels in Lake Powell and Lake Mead , the West's largest reservoirs fed by the Colorado River. The Pacific Institute's Michael Cohen says both have been shrinking at unprecedented rates.

S5: Already 23 years of drought. We've lost about 170 feet of elevation at Lake Mead. And the forecasts are projecting that Lake Mead could drop even another 50 feet in the next two years.

S4: That could put the system dangerously close to a condition that water managers call dead pool.

S6: Oh , Jesus. Oh , that's not good. No , no , no. No.

S4: No. Not the Ryan Reynolds Deadpool. Deadpool happens when the lake's level drops below the valves , which send water down river to Arizona and California. Lake Mead is just 150 feet away from Deadpool. If that happens , San Diego could lose half its drinking water. Cohen says the water rights the authority bought from the Imperial Valley would be worthless.

S5: There is a chance that if the different Colorado River water users can't come to an agreement , current rules will continue to apply and that Lake Mead will continue to be drawn down , creating the crisis really that we're seeing right now , because people see this coming.

S4: And while water managers may see the crisis coming , it's still hard to cut back , Cohen says. California will probably end this year using more than its share of Colorado River water.

S5: And most of that overuse is actually not coming from the irrigation district , is coming from metropolitan water districts. And that's , of course , because California itself is in a massive drought.

S4: Metropolitan is the region's largest water wholesalers serving Los Angeles and many surrounding water districts. The consequences of taking too much water now could be dire. Federal officials are giving water users a chance to determine where cuts will happen. If they can't , the federal government promises to make that decision for them. Eric Anderson , KPBS News.

S1: Joining me is KPBS environment reporter Eric Anderson. Hi , Eric.

S4: Hi , Barry.

S1: So water managers from Western states , including California , met just this summer to try to agree on a plan to reduce water consumption from the Colorado. But they did not come up with reductions.

S4: The Bureau of Reclamation instituted these cuts linked to the level two , tier two drought declaration. So what happens on the Colorado when it has a full allocation of water and nobody takes cuts , they can all take the water that they're legally allowed to take. Last year there was a shortage. Declaration declared cuts were coming. The shortage declaration was increased. This year , this summer it was more severe. So cuts were implemented. California escaped those cuts. No , no cut to the 4.4 million acre feet that the state gets. But the federal government is also saying at the same time that more cuts are coming in 2023 and those cuts are expected to be deep 2 to 4 million acre feet of water per year. That would be an unprecedented reduction. And where those cuts will come as yet to be decided , it's sort of being negotiated.

S1:

S4: There are actually a handful of transfer agreements. One for lining the all-American canal that used to be a dirt , dirt aqueduct. And we put concrete in it that saves water. So we bought that extra water that it saves. And then a water transfer agreement that was a bigger chunk and over a longer period of time that just directly moved water from the Imperial Valley to San Diego. And that , you know , altogether is about half of the water we use here in San Diego County.

S1: One in the Metropolitan Water District that supplies L.A. be asked to make the biggest cuts since it's apparently overusing its share.

S4: Interesting question. Interesting position for Metropolitan. They're not the biggest water user , though. The biggest water user of the Colorado River is actually the Imperial Valley. They have 4 million acre feet worth of water that they can take every year. It's interesting this year that in this time of drought , Metropolitan is overdrawing its allocation , which is putting the state's allocation a little bit higher. That does a couple of things. It makes them a little bit vulnerable when we have these talks between the water agencies about where they're going to cut. Other states get mad at that. They don't like to see that happen. So that kind of increases the likelihood that there might be some pain in that area in the future.

S1: If San Diego were to lose half of its water supply from the Colorado River water.

S4: Let's not be let's not dance around that subject. It's a lot of water and it would take a lot to replace that. The Pure Water Project is going to be coming online probably in a couple of years. That could provide up to 80 million gallons of water a day. The Poseidon desal plant in Carlsbad gets about 50 million gallons of water a day , but that's only like five to 10 to 15% of all the water that's used in the region up here. Water could be expanded. That's in the possibility , but not enough to make it up. But I think what you'll see , what you will see is that local officials will have to lean really heavily into the conservation angle , and that might mean cutting off outdoor watering. For example , in San Diego County , that's where half of the water that we buy goes. It goes to sprinklers that that keep lawns green , that keep plants alive outside. That may be an area that comes under a lot of scrutiny , but there's no clear roadmap as to exactly what happens now.

S1:

S4: It's not that much of a threat. But in the last two years , the level at Lake Mead has declined significantly , and forecasts show that it's going to lose another 50 feet of elevation in the next two years. And if the basin states can't come to terms on. Adequate cutbacks. That rate of decline could accelerate. That's what makes this a real possibility.

S1:

S4: My sense is , is that California will not be able to sidestep the cutbacks. San Diego County officials here also are saying , look , we could lose as much as 10% of the water that we get from the Imperial Valley through those water transfer deals lose as much as 10% as our share of the cutbacks. So even the pain will be felt here in San Diego. It will be felt in all of California , likely. And that decision , you know exactly how those cuts are meted out. That decision will come sometime early next year , maybe into the summer before they reach agreement on it.

S1: I've been speaking with KPBS environment reporter Eric Anderson. Eric , thanks.

S4: My pleasure.

S1: This is KPBS Midday Edition. I'm Maureen CAVANAUGH. Jade Heideman is away. The case that was the inspiration behind the founding of the California Innocence Project is finally over. The 1992 murder conviction against Marilyn Melero was dismissed by a Chicago judge this month , and she was exonerated. Marilyn spent nearly 30 years in prison , some of it on death row , all the while proclaiming her innocence. Attorney and law professor Justin Brooks learned about Marilyn's conviction in 1995 and has been working on it ever since. It was her case that convinced Brooks to make helping the wrongfully convicted his life's work. Joining me is Justin Brooks , co-founder of the California Innocence Project , based here in San Diego at the California School of Law. Justin , welcome and congratulations.

S2: Thank you so much.

S1:

S2: And that just shocked me that someone could get the death penalty on a plea bargain. So I set up a meeting to meet with her and she told me not only was she sentenced to death on a plea bargain , but that she was factually innocent. It was bad enough me thinking that she was guilty and sentenced to death without a trial , but the idea that she'd given up her right to a trial and gone right to a death penalty sentencing and she was proclaiming her innocence was crazy. So I recruited some law students and we started working on her case.

S1:

S2: I just finished the case and I'm 57. I started the case the year my son Zach was born , and he just started his job at the San Diego Public Defender's Office as a lawyer.

S1: Well , when you were able to get Marilyn off death row and sentenced to life in prison , that was back in 1998. That was when you decided to make innocence work your life's work.

S2: You know , I'd pick them up at the trial level and I'd do the trials and do my best , and then they'd be out of my hands and move on to the appellate courts. Or if I was lucky and won , they'd be freed. This work , though , I had no idea really that a case could take 27 years to see it to the end. Working on her case , I realized the value of working on these cases with students. This is a profession that requires skills that you just can't learn in the classroom. That really motivated me for the idea of setting up a clinic where we would work on real cases , but the students would be learning at the same time. And so , you know , the next year I moved to California and I started the California Innocence Project.

S1: Now , the homicide detective who helped send Marilyn to prison is accused of framing dozens of people and more than 30 of his cases have been overturned. Was that the linchpin that led to Marilyn Miller's exoneration ? Absolutely.

S2: You know , for 27 years , I've been talking about Detective Guevarra and what he did to my client. She was kept up all night. She was psychologically tortured. She was repeatedly told she'd be executed. She was brought to a park and shown to gang members , and they were told that she was the one who killed their friend. This guy has been doing this kind of stuff for decades in Chicago. And finally it's come out. And now there's just dozens of cases that have been revealed that he basically just fabricated the cases. He was just setting people up and convict him of crimes they didn't commit.

S1:

S2: And believe it or not , Maureen , even after being criminal defense attorney for 32 years , I still believe in the basic goodness of people. I still believe most people get up every day and try to do the best they can , whether they're police or lawyers or whoever. But life is a bell curve , right ? So there's the small part of the curve where you have the people who are incredible at their work. You've got most of the bell or where most of us fall into of good to. Okay. And then you have the terrible and the horrible. And unfortunately , we do have lawyers out there like that , police officers like that. Plumbers out there like that in every profession. You have people that are either , like completely incompetent or just literally intentionally doing wrong doing. But in the majority of our cases , it's been more problems with the way we do identification procedures , problems with lawyering , but not necessarily intentional bad acts. Problems with policing , but not necessarily intentionally bad acts. It's just the system is ultimately imperfect because it's based on human beings making decisions and we make mistakes.

S1: Now , your work with the California Innocence Project not only involves working to overturn wrongful convictions , but you've been very much involved in criminal justice reform. But there seems to be a backlash from the public and prosecutors to some of those efforts , like a backlash against felony conviction reform , the move to end cash bail , the move to stop charging minors as adults. And the progressive district attorney in San Francisco was recall recently for some of those reforms.

S2: And these were great things. But the problem with reforming the criminal justice system is so many people benefit by increasing the number of people in prison , by increasing the number of police , by increasing sentences. We've created this entire industry around it , and particularly during the political season , you start hearing all the politicians talking about how afraid we all should be and how when they get elected , they're going to keep us safe. And so we already see that all drumming up for the upcoming November elections , all the , you know , a lot of very false statistics about crime. And I think that's just the cycle that we're in now. And we have to be smarter about it. We have to be smarter about our tax dollars. We have to recognize the fact that we've built the biggest prison system in the world in the United States , that we incarcerate a higher percentage of our population than any country in the world , and that we have a horrible recidivism rate as well. So it's not a very successful correctional system and start making good decisions for our society , not decisions based in fear that just financially benefits certain people. And that's really what's happened in our system and we are moving in the right direction. But during this political season , I can I can hear it all going again , you know , more police , more sentences , more prisons. And that's not the way we should be going.

S1:

S2: There is another battle that I'm going to be engaging in. And , you know , 38 states now have some form of compensation. My office work to get compensation law passed in California. We now have a pretty good law where people can get $150 a day for every day they're wrongfully incarcerated. And a lot of states , they get things like maybe free tuition at a community college or things like that. But Marilyn , we still have an uphill battle that even though her case was dismissed and that means the district attorney has acknowledged that she shouldn't have been prosecuted and they have no interest in pursuing her case. We still have a process to go through because , again , the plea bargain rears its ugly head. And so there's a question of whether she's eligible based on her plea bargain. But I am going to be fighting that as well.

S1:

S2: It had been such a part of me for so long that I really had trouble thinking of myself , of who am I if I'm not representing Marilyn Malaria. I mean , I've talked about her case endlessly. It starts every presentation I do , every class I teach. It's been a part of my life , my entire professional career. So it's a massive relief , massive joy , but it's really hard to describe exactly the feeling.

S1: I've been speaking with Justin Brooks , co-founder of the California Innocence Project. And , Justin , thank you for speaking with us.

S2: My pleasure , as always.

S1: For more information about the wrongful conviction of Marilyn Monroe , you can go to our website at KPBS dot org. Communities of color are disproportionately impacted by crime and gun violence. But those same communities say they've usually been left out of many conversations and programs meant to help victims of crime in California. KQED politics correspondent Marisa Lagos reports. That's starting to change.

S3: On a sunny Friday in April , a small group gathered outside the Oakland Police Department headquarters. Good afternoon , everybody. I thank you for making this a priority. My name is Ebony Antoine. I am the executive.

S1: Director of Broken by. Violence.

S3: Violence. They were black shirts and caps emblazoned with the red letters Bobby V for Broken by violence. Today we walk to raise awareness for every family that mourns without receiving justice. For every mother whose child never came home. For every wife who has to raise her children alone. Antoine led the group of mostly black men and women. They were there to call attention to the nearly 600 unsolved Oakland homicides from the past decade alone. But they also held signs demanding support well beyond the purview of the criminal justice system. Money to help pay for therapy and funeral expenses. Places to heal. Safety recognition. Antoine's husband , Corey Rojas , was gunned down in 2010 in apparent retaliation for helping a dying murder victim outside their home and talking to police. A few weeks after that shooting , his godson answered a knock at the front door. Rojas pushed him out of the way and was shot pointblank in front of his children and godchildren. Afterward , Antoine says , Honestly , I was treated like I really didn't matter. She felt let down by police , prosecutors and the state. Antoine applied for help through the state's Victim Compensation Fund , which offers financial assistance to crime survivors. It did cover the funeral , but they were denied virtually everything else moving cost help , relocating to a home where her family felt safe , help with the income they lost when their main provider was murdered. There's no resources , but somehow you're supposed to dust yourself off and pretend like this horrific crime never happened. Antoine has become a leader in this movement , and her call is being made beyond the borders of this East Bay City. After decades during which the debate over what crime victims want and need was dominated by a handful of groups closely aligned with law enforcement and largely focused on criminal punishment. A new movement has emerged. It's being led by the communities most impacted by violence. And among their demands is a rethinking of who we consider victims. You know , it's not impossible for someone to have both experiences. It's not impossible for someone to have had a criminal record or had past contact with the criminal legal system and be a victim of a crime. Denise Hollins is executive director of Californians for Safety and Justice , a nonprofit that views the mission of helping both criminal offenders and survivors as interconnected and necessary in order to build safer communities. Collins , who lost two brothers to gun violence herself , is among those who've been pushing for changes to state law. So there's acknowledgement of the damage violence wreaks on community. The way the law is currently structured , it excludes some of those people from being recognized as a victim , from being able to access trauma recovery services.

S1: Or get mental health or get.

S3: Relocated , for example. For decades , California's victims compensation fund has required victims to cooperate with police and excluded anyone on parole or who police believe was involved in the crime. Myriam Aleman Schiewe is director of the California Victims Legal Resource Center. She says leaving so many people out of the survivor system only creates more crime and victims stops them from being able to move on and to heal from the injury. So it definitely creates a cycle where people , you know , aren't able to access help and then they just go back into the same hurt. But things appear to be changing. Advocates , including Antoine and Hollins , have netted several legislative wins this year. California is increasing the amount of cash many victims can get and removing many of those barriers to qualifying for the Victims Compensation Fund. And for the first time , community organizations will get cash grants so they can give money directly to crime victims in vulnerable communities. For Ebony Antoine , those changes come too late , even though the impacts of her husband's still unsolved murder continue to ripple. Her then teenage godson , who opened the door the night Rojas was murdered , is now serving a prison sentence himself for murder. But her three kids are doing well , and she's finding purpose in her work at Broken by Violence , where she helps other crime survivors advocate for what they need. So I knew that I was not going to allow Corey's death to be something that would be my demise , that I would turn my pain into power. Antoine and others say even with this year's wins , their fight is far from over.

S6: India consistently produces about twice as many films as the United States. And American audiences are starting to embrace those films , thanks to streaming services such as Netflix and Prime that carry hundreds of titles. Back in May , the film RR was in the top ten most watched Netflix movies , and now it's the most watched non-English language film on the streaming service. This has stirred industry talk that the film might draw some Oscar love next year. It's been two decades since India has had a film nominated for Best Foreign Language Film by the Academy. Here to discuss the success of our hour and how well it represents Indian film are KPBS Cinema Junky host Beth ACCOMANDO and Yazdi Pitta Vala , host of the podcast Movie Wallahs. Welcome to you both. Thank you. Thank you. So RR is India's most expensive movie to date , and it's one of its highest grossing. Beth , tell us what this film is about.

S3: All right. It's hard to condense it , but RR is inspired by a pair of historical figures. But it delivers more fantasy than facts , as it gives us this bromance between two men who seem to be fighting on opposite sides. One is a villager rebelling against his British colonizers while the other is working for them. So it's a three hour saga , which is typical for Indian films , and it features ridiculously gorgeous stars , crazy action set pieces , an evil empire melodrama to swoon over. And of course , musical numbers like this one that are absolutely irresistible. And this one is kind of a dance off.

S2: Not salsa , not flamenco , my brother. Do not disengage , but steady disengage.

S7: Barely tacit who aka single talk at the natural bottom catholic polar bear tajura camacho heavy days ago you got to suck at your bad to not just to be called the desert pot to go to toilet not you want to go to Mr. Hopkins and not sure.

S6: And I actually watched this video yesterday it is very , very catchy. I cannot recommend it enough. So Yazdi , although this is a musical and it's from India , it is not considered Bollywood. So why is that so ? Indian cinema is frequently associated with Bollywood films which are made in Hindi the national language of the country. Bollywood refers to films made in studios in Bombay , which is now in Mumbai. However , from the very beginning , India has had a rich history of local cinema made in other parts of the country. Most recently , films made in South India have been gaining national attention because some of those films are just better films , period. Films made in the regional South Indian language of Telugu are particularly on the rise and getting a lot of attention. And those films are called Tollywood Films and are is a great example of that. So Tollywood versus Bollywood. Good to know.

S3: He knows how to make everything feel epic in ways that play off of the kind of Bollywood traditions. And he mixes that in with kind of Indian mythology and delivers everything with kind of an affectionate wink to the audience , kind of saying that he knows this is over-the-top , he knows this is exaggerated , but he knows it's going to suck us in and make us swoon and beg for more. So he's dialing it up not just to 11 , but to like a thousand. I mean , there is a torture scene where the guy breaks out into song and then in the next scene is fine. So it's just relentlessly and joyously over the top , and it's really easy to get completely sucked in by it.

S6: And in the West sometimes we call that camp. Yazdi Can you explain or what do you make of this film's success and do you think it represents the best of Indian cinema today ? So there are many reasons for the film's success. Its two main leads are sons of ruling acting dynasties in South India , so having them both could lead a large budget blockbuster. EPICS such as this almost guarantees maximal attendance in local theaters. But what's interesting are the other reasons for the remarkably unexpected , huge international following for this film. There are several reasons. This is maximalist cinema at its most maximal. There is no nuance here. There are no shades of grey. The bad guys are evil and extreme , and the good guys are downright gods. And there's something very elemental and primal about how this story is constructed. And there is an open , armed embrace of sentimentality that is uncommon in cinema these days. So I think both of these things speaks to the universal uptake for the film. And so in retrospect , this is not so much of a surprise. And add to that incredible action scenes and a soundtrack that's working really hard overtime all the time through all of the three hour running time. And you have something that is pretty , pretty remarkable.

S3: So , you know , think about actors like John Wayne and on up through Clint Eastwood and Chuck Norris and Sylvester Stallone. They make fun , popular action films. But , you know , they also say something about a particular kind of American individualism and testosterone. So you can go in and just enjoy them as fun action movies. But you can also see how they're meant to stir a certain kind of patriotism or a certain way of thinking. So our our gives us people fighting against an evil , very evil empire. And of course , we cheer them on and we want to see them win. But , you know , there's also this rousing sense of unquestioning nationalism that's going on as well. So I think the thing to think about is that Indian films are as prone to tropes and stereotypes as Hollywood is. But , you know , when they're wrapped in this foreign culture , we may not pick up on them quite as readily.

S6: Yazdi How about you ? Do you see any political undercurrents in RR that an American viewer might miss ? It's hard to miss. Andrew And like , okay , that said , the reason the film has raised more than a few eyebrows is this naked abandon with. Richard embraces a very particular kind of patriotism. It's a little bit hollow , but the drum beating doesn't end. And this kind of patriotism in this film at least , goes further and often gleefully taps into a nationalist fervor. And I think it's relevant because the current reigning political party in India has long been accused of weaponizing nationalistic rhetoric to exalt Hinduism , often to the detriment of people of other faiths that are living in India. And when the last half hour of this film sees its heroes actually take on what are unmistakable incarnations of the Hindu gods Rama and Bhima , then you've got to scratch your head about the film's agenda. Is this thinly veiled nationalistic propaganda or innocent entertainment ? You get to decide when you watch it. Hmm. So what films would you both recommend people check out if they want to broaden their view of Indian cinema ? We'll start with you , Beth. Sure.

S3: Sure. One of the things I really love is something that's referred to as Mumbai Noir. And these are like crime thrillers. And they still frequently have big musical numbers , but they're set , like in a cabaret or something practical that makes sense. And my favorite ones are from Ram Gopal Varma films such as Company and Shiva , and those are from like the early 2000. I also highly recommend SS Rajamouli's earlier films baahubali one into which I actually think are more fun than RR. And finally , Jodha Akbar , which is another period historical piece.

S6: And Yazdi , how about you ? I'll try to rein in my recommendations , but in addition to that , Akbar , I would also add Padmaavat , when you're talking about gorgeous historical epics , and I think for genuinely well written and finely constructed heart warmers are Kapoor and sons. But I whole and the age of only had given your heart to beat and find me for sheer sweet , giddy , mindless entertainment just be met or dil dhadakne adore our excellent as well. I've been speaking with KPBS Cinema Junky host Beth ACCOMANDO and Yazdi up at the Villa , host of the podcast movie Wallahs. Thank you. Both.

S3: Both. Thank you.

S6: Thank you for even more on Indian cinema. You can also check out Cinema Junkies two part series. Hooray for Bollywood , where Beth spoke with Yazdi and his fellow podcasters in-depth about Bollywood cinema. Go.

S7: Good to go this good on the market looking not too cold. It's a little hard to catch.

UU: All of that will come out of this scene.

S7: That's all been know my take on some good I'm guessing not up.