S1: Hey , San Diego , it's time for KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. On the eve of planned protests in San Diego and across the country , we take a closer look at immigration enforcement under Trump and how it's led to a legal battle over control of California's National Guard. Some takeaways from the week's events.
S2: A useful way to look at the entire issue that we're talking about here is it's all part of the spectacle , right ? Like all of Trump's domestic policies are kind of predicated on the assumption that we are in a crisis.
S1: Then we hear from a pair of local journalists focusing on bringing stories to social media. That's ahead on KPBS roundtable. It's been quite the week in news this week across the country and right here in San Diego. Not sure it's going to be slowing down anytime soon either. It started with immigration raids in Los Angeles ramping up , resulting in protests. Then came the military being called in to respond. Trump's decision to call upon the military is currently being challenged in court by California Governor Gavin Newsom and its attorney general , Rob Bonta. And if that's not enough , this weekend protests are planned across the country , including here in San Diego. Coincide with an anniversary military parade in our nation's capital. And I haven't even gotten to the California senator who ended up in handcuffs on Thursday. Joining me to talk about their recent reporting and how it fits into all that's happening in the current moment , is KPBS investigative reporter Gustavo Solis , along with Andrew Dyer , who is KPBS military and veterans affairs reporter. I want to thank you both for joining us on roundtable. I mean , I don't know , it just seemed like an interesting and important moment to , you know , talk with you. As you know , your reporting beats have seen a lot this week.
S2: Trump has always wanted to use the military for more than its traditional role. He's never hesitated to , you know , kind of interject himself into the military. You know , this is something that a lot of leaders previously avoided politicizing the military. But Trump has no such restraints. During his first term , there were kind of some people on his staff that there were some more guardrails up. But Trump 2.0 , there are no guardrails. He learned from his first term. Apparently he's surrounded by people who are not going to challenge him and he gets what he wants.
S1: So again , just to recap , earlier this week , you know , against the wishes of Governor Gavin Newsom , the Trump administration called in roughly 4000 National Guard members to Los Angeles to respond to those protests. And then on top of that , he also ended up deploying some about 700 Marines as well.
S2: One , it is not unusual for the National Guard to be called in to do these sorts of missions. Usually maybe it would be in a more volatile protest situation. And normally it's the state governor calling in the National Guard. That didn't happen this time. In fact , our state governor , of course , did not want the guard to to come in because according to the state and the local authorities , you know , the local law enforcement was capable of handling this protest. So that's like the guard side of it. Now , the thing that's unusual is the active duty Marines. This is not a mission that the Marine Corps trains for. Marines are an offensive force. This is an infantry battalion that was sent to LA. The infantry job is to seek out and destroy the enemy. That is what they do. That's what they trained to do , is to put bullets downrange. To destroy and to kill that. That's what you do when you're an infantry marine , and that's what you're trained to do. Now , US Northern Command , who kind of is in charge of the military in the , you know , continental United States , they said that these Marines were trained initially. They said they were trained in , you know , de-escalation and and things like that. And then , you know , the next day some reporting in task and purpose said , well , actually they haven't been trained in that yet. They are getting that training now , which is essentially a military lawyer reading them the rules. But that is kind of what is is unique here is the active duty component. This has happened before where President George H.W. Bush called in Marines during the 1992 uprising in Los Angeles after the Rodney King police brutality verdict. Now , that was under the kind of legal umbrella of the Insurrection Act , which would allow active duty military to perform law enforcement. That has not happened yet under Trump. He has threatened to do it and hasn't done it yet. So , you know , these Marines are not there to enforce the law. They are there to , you know , protect federal property and federal agents. That is the scope of their mission , as is the National Guard. They are not there in this law enforcement capacity , which is kind of like an important legal distinction , because it's illegal to use the military for law enforcement that is enshrined in U.S. law. That is a it's something that , you know , goes back and I had my story this week. This is something that goes back to the 900 years of the Magna Carta where like , you know , you know , there were English kings that recognized that there was a problem in deploying your military against your own citizens.
S1: And philosophically , that is just that. That's not their job. Is that sort of the precedent there in terms of you don't want to use your military in place of policing ? Exactly.
S2: Um , because it undermines the public's , you know , faith in its own government and trust in its own government and its military.
S1: And some of your recent reporting this week , I mean , you did kind of state that it doesn't sound like maybe this is the end of that kind of move to bring in Marines in these situations. You reported that U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth said more military response may be in the works. Right ? Right.
S2: And he's been on Capitol Hill all week testifying in front of various House and Senate committees and subcommittees. And this is one of the hearings where he said this. He did specifically mention the National Guard and Reserve , um , which is distinct from like the active duty component. But he says that , you know , under this president , you know , they're absolutely willing to use , you know , the power of the military for domestic security. That said , it's an important part of defending the homeland. You know , during his campaign , Trump said , you know , he would use the troops to against protesters Sunday night. As you know , these images were coming out of out of Los Angeles. You know , I don't know what time it was here. It was even later in D.C. , but he's on Truth Social. Firing out all caps , you know , posts , sending the troops like this is a long , long. Kind of a objective of Trump is to use the military like this.
S1: So , Gustavo , I want to bring in bring you in here now. You know , this military response happened in response to these protests over Ice raids in LA over the past week or so. The raids and the response to them , at least , you know , evoked the last time we talked was about a raid in San Diego at San Diego's when I forget the restaurant in , in in South Park.
S3: Yeah. I think one leads to another. I mean , they were separated by less than a week. They were both very public. There's a performative aspect to it that that Andrew was kind of alluding to , especially with the military. Right. You're bringing the Marines , but all they're doing is auxiliary work. It was similar when when troops were deployed to the border. They're not putting hands on people. They're putting up fences Here in San Diego. I mean , there was a big presence from HRC. They had long rifles. They had body armor. If you go back a little bit further and look at the raid in El Cajon , you see DEA agents there. Show of force. Uh , so so there's a public performative aspect to this , but I do think clearly there's been an escalation in Los Angeles , both in terms of the community response in the protests , but also the way the government goes about it. Right. The South Park raid was limited to those two restaurants. They had a federal warrant. They had been surveilling them for a long time. The enforcement in LA seems a little bit less restrained going to a Home Depot , stopping at random places , detaining folks and asking questions later. I think it's noteworthy that what happened in Los Angeles came after , you know , reporting revealed that , uh , senior white House aide Stephen Miller , has been very upset with the low detention numbers from Ice berating the leadership of that agency and demanding a quota of up to 3000 arrests per day , which is historic. But then since then , you know , LA happened. So you see the impact of that , that that type of outburst back then.
S1: And , you know , in addition to the raids we've been seeing in Southern California and across the country , other parts of the country as well. You know , you reported this week it's also happening in immigration courts , right ? People are going to their court hearings and having their deportation cases thrown out , but then afterwards getting arrested. Tell us more about that story and what you found. Yeah.
S3: Yeah. This all works together , right ? This is all connected. If you look at the bigger picture of Trump's immigration campaign. Courthouse arrest is something that they didn't really do. These are people who are going. These are people who are showing up to their court hearings. They're being detained. The student visas revocations are another example of. That people are being detained in some cases after dropping their children off at schools outside here. You know , the Biden administration greatly expanded alternative to detention programs , which meant that instead of being detained , an immigrant without status would get an ankle bracelet or have to download a phone app that would track them and do regular check ins with ice. They're now being arrested during those regular check ins. So on the whole , you see this massive expansion of immigration enforcement that manifests itself in different ways. Well , we shouldn't really be surprised by it , because Trump has been saying they wanted to do this for for many years. And if you look at what's happening now , one of the sources I talked to , an immigration lawyer said we shouldn't be surprised. This is , you know , the executive orders he signed in January. We're seeing the fruit of those executive orders now. We're seeing that expansion. So I think similar to the military , right. Trump has said before that , you know , he has these views on how to use the military. He has these views on how to tackle immigration enforcement. I think maybe in the past , some of his comments could be dismissed as , oh , you know , that's just how he talks. It's hyperbole. Or he was joking. And then people maybe would let some of the more extreme parts of the rhetoric pass. But we're seeing that that that's starting to play out right now. And that that I do think is very , very concerning.
S1: And , Gustavo , you've talked a little bit about , you know , the different agencies involved in immigration enforcement. And I think you've reported a little bit about , I don't know , what you found to be increased militarization around immigration enforcement.
S3: Two. And there's a clear line between , you know , military using certain equipment abroad. That equipment then being repurposed for border patrol and then that same equipment being repurposed yet again for local police enforcement. So we do see that direct line over there in terms of the agencies involved. Like I said before , one of the executive orders called for other federal agencies to help with immigration enforcement. Right. The DEA , FBI , US marshals , even IRS in some cases. NHC. I think that's important to a state like California , because California has the sanctuary laws that limit cooperation between local and federal law enforcement. So , like in a state like Texas and Florida , they can just sign a 270 agreement that essentially deputized as local cops to do immigration enforcement. That's a big help to the federal government , because they don't have to spend federal resources to hire more people to increase that enforcement. They can just rely on the locals.
S1: Easier to. Yeah.
S3: Yeah , exactly. It's a it's a quicker path to getting results. If you're just worried about you know that 3000 arrest quota California they can't do that. So instead of deputizing the local people they're pulling folks from other federal agents. Like I said , DEA , Htsci ATF. And I have heard from folks who are concerned about the long term reputational damage to some of those agencies and the short term impact on their investigation. Right. We're seeing DEA agents getting pulled from the work that they're doing , presumably going after high value , uh , drug trafficking networks and going to restaurants and businesses to get folks who don't have a violent criminal record. Same with HSC. I mean , HSC , I feel like a lot of people aren't familiar with that agency , Homeland Security Investigations. But in the past , they've been held up as the standards , almost like an elite unit within Ice. They're not the ones that go around people up. They're the ones that go after the heads of of cartels. Right. The human trafficking rings. Uh , long term investigative police work. Now they're getting pulled away from that work and doing the enforcement that they've said before. It's kind of beneath them a little bit. So I think that is an interesting thing to keep an eye out.
S1: So , you know , this weekend , as I mentioned , there's a pretty large military parade happening Saturday in Washington , D.C. it marks the US Army's 250th anniversary. Also happens to be Trump's birthday. And on top of that , there are these protests planned , you know , pretty much across the nation , including here in San Diego. I'm just , you know , as we kind of wrap up here , I'm curious what your thoughts are , what you're going to be looking for from your respective beats , Andrew.
S2: The way I look at it , and I think it's useful , a useful way to look at the entire issue that we're talking about here is it's all part of the spectacle , right ? Like all of Trump's domestic policies are kind of predicated on the assumption that we are in a crisis. We have some kind of crisis within our borders. There's an invasion coming. You listen to the rhetoric that they use. It's an invasion. It's an occupation. They're you know , protesters have different countries flags , right ? Like we're in crisis. We can't afford all these people like everything that they're doing. You know , they're justifying it by saying that there's a crisis and they need to have this response. They need to deport people. They need to. And so anything that aids and kind of abets that spectacle is what they're going to do , right ? So if you see that your your raids are going to generate unrest and protest , let's do more raids and get more unrest than we can send in the troops. And that just adds to that spectacle. You want a you wanted a military parade during the first term , which he did. He didn't get it. Well , he's getting it this time. He's only been in office a few months , and they're already rolling the tanks down Pennsylvania Avenue. I don't think it's exactly Pennsylvania Avenue , but , um , he's getting his his parade. He's getting his spectacle. And I think that's the way that I can personally kind of understand these actions is it's it's all about this kind of just a spectacle.
S1: And Gustavo , that's something that you have made the case for. You know , in looking at these immigration raids , we've seen , right , as well , this spectacle.
S3: And I don't mean that as a dig. I mean that as a statement of fact. Right. Look at his track record where he came from , reality TV. He knows how to put on a show. He's an entertainer. Taking it a little bit to an extreme with when you tie it into the political motivations. Uh , in terms of what I'm looking at , I think we are at a we're at a very strange period right now where There's a lot of escalation happening , right ? With the Ice raids , with the protests. You mentioned Senator Padilla getting handcuffed away from from the press conference. There's a lot of escalation right now. I also think that there's a people are starting to get a sense of what mass deportations look like , of what Trump's immigration policy look like. There's been a couple clips of news stories now. I feel like there's more every week. The most recent one , it was a , uh , gentleman in Florida who owns a roofing repair business , or half his employees were caught in a in a raid , and now he's he doesn't have employees and he doesn't know how many he can get. He was almost , like , on the verge of tears talking about the Nicaraguan men that he's no longer working with. He voted for President Trump , and he voted for President Trump because he likes the idea of , uh , deporting violent criminals with convictions. He didn't think that would impact his workers. I think that's happening in small bits and pieces all over the country , even in Republican districts. So I think people are starting to get an appreciation of what Trump's immigration policy is , and starting to understand that the rhetoric doesn't match the reality. Right ? The rhetoric is we're going after criminals. I think if you really explore that rhetoric , they're using the word criminal very liberally , right , to to the administration. Any immigrant without legal status , if you even if you've been here 15 years and have never been convicted of a crime , it doesn't matter. You're still a criminal. Every immigrant in this country without legal status is considered a criminal by the administration , just by virtue of being here illegally , without status. But I think most people haven't made that connection yet , and they're slowly realizing that. And I think we'll see it. We'll see it maybe reflected in the polls. There's already been some changes , with the latest round of polling showing Slight decrease in support for Trump's immigration policy , so I'd be curious to see if that continues.
S1: Well , so much more to come on this. Of course. We hope to check back in with you both soon. Gustavo Solis is KPBS investigative border reporter. Andrew Dyer covers military and veterans affairs for KPBS. Thanks so much for joining us in roundtable this week.
S3: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you.
S1: When roundtable returns , we hear from San Diego journalists bringing news to the world of social media. It's coming up after the break. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. Love it or hate it , social media is where a lot of us spend a good deal of our time , and it's become a place where many of us get our news. Over half of American adults say they get at least some of their news through social media. That's according to a study from Pew Research. And that same study also found that 40% of young adults get their news regularly from TikTok specifically. We wanted to talk more about what it takes to bring journalism to the world of social media. Some of the challenges that come with that , but also the opportunities. Bella Ross is a social media producer with the Voice of San Diego , and Jake Guarda is KPBS social media host and reporter. They both join me now. I want to welcome you both to roundtable , but really just wanted to start out how would you characterize news on social media today , Bella.
S4: News on social media today ? I think the way to think about how it's distinct from the way that we've expected to journalism to be for all of these years before now is that it's about like meeting people where they're at. Like in the past , you know , people kind of understood that news was important and like , they would trust it and they sort it out like they would go buy a newspaper. And now people one don't trust these institutions as much as they once did. And to like , know that they don't have to seek out news to get informed. The news will find them. And so with social media , it's about like meeting them where they're at , being in their Instagram fees or wherever that might be. And also like that just comes with a whole host of other different things when it comes to the approach and challenges , because you're having to compete in this space so that people are , you know , their attention is very precious and it's very easy to lose it. And that definitely changes how you format the story and the way that you just approach journalism in general.
S1:
S5: So there's a lot of people who follow news accounts and stuff like that , and they know they're going to get that content , but they're not always. And most of the time , probably specifically looking for news , they're not going on another phone and saying , hey , let me go look at the news , Instagram , or let me go to this website , because if they did , they would go to the website , they would go watch it on TV. But people are just on Instagram , you know , in general scrolling and killing time and whatever people do on Instagram and news content comes up and it's got to catch their attention. That's part of the approach. But that news content will just come up as part of their normal day. And so it's not like you can just expect them to be looking for it , and that changes how you approach it. But then it also means that you can just get people who maybe wouldn't be interested or wouldn't necessarily seek it out to engage with that sort of content. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And I'm thinking about how I kind of use social media. A lot of it. It's like you may not even be in that sort of new space , right ? I might be watching , I don't know , Sopranos memes or just , you know , stupid things. So how do you kind of grab those people's , you know , grab attention below ? Like , you know , that importance of grabbing people's attention. And this sort of , I don't know , more casual space of social media.
S4: The way that I've kind of put it is that either you have to or the way that I approach it is either you have to like , you know , prove the relevance of what you're talking about enough to get people to care. And you really have to top load this kind of content , like you're starting with the most important thing or some kind of hook because , like , you are so likely to lose people in those first couple seconds. Like if you look at a graph of like when how long people are watching videos , like the average is normally not very long , the number of people who make it to the end of a video is very short. This is how news has always been. You know , you're starting with the lead and you're kind of like building back from there , but especially on social media. Um , so I think you either have to portray the relevance , like very quickly or you kind of have to like entertain them to the point that they're like almost tricked into learning something. That's like another approach that I take.
S1: Jake , each of you cover a lot of government , a lot of , you know , in-depth issues.
S5: And so you can expect them to , you know , have watched your last video or have watched anything from the previous coverage. You have to just understand that most of the time , the audience that you're going to reach with these videos is going to just be seeing this for the first time. They're not going to know what's going on , they're not going to know the context. And so you have to figure out a way to give them that context. And like Bella said , make it feel important , like real quick , you only have a minute or so to let people know what's going on and give them context. Let them know why it's important. But so what that means is it's a practice in really driving down to like the one main point and just making that point and just worrying about what's the one specific thing that we want to talk about that we want to make this video about ? Let's get that out there and explain why it matters. And then if there's , you know , further context and nuance , that has to be a different video or something. And so you have to really just distill the point down and then focus on that and make that the one thing that you talk about and not worry about , you know , oh , well , what are people going to think about this or that ? Just focus on that specific one thing.
S1: So to drill more into that , Jake , you know , a recent video you did that I really liked was on the city's bonus Edu program. And for that approach you took , you went to like the middle of a street. And it was sort of the dividing line of , you know , where the rules changed for different neighborhoods in the city. I'm wondering if you can just kind of walk us through that video , but , you know , kind of your thoughts behind how you told that story.
S5: Well , yeah , I wanted to obviously show visually what this story is about , and it's about how there are certain neighborhoods that are going to be restricted from this new or from this Adu program. And you know , without saying it , you can just see what that neighborhood is like and why that neighborhood is , you know , maybe different than other neighborhoods in the city where the bonus program still applies. And , you know , Andrew Bowen did a whole great story on the nuts and bolts of this issue and where the Adu program is going to apply after the city Council voted on what they voted on. All of that is great for the audience that is , you know , has the time attention span to read that whole article. And then I had to go just show people in a little one minute video. Here's the neighborhood where it's going to be restricted , and you can see what kind of neighborhood this is. And so it's really just about giving people that upfront visual that tells the story better than I could even tell it just by explaining it with my words.
S1: And Bella , I mean , you kind of do a similar thing. You cover , you know , breaking down how the local government works , the ins and outs of like the different agencies. A recent video you did , you kind of did this explainer on all the different agencies involved in immigration enforcement. You know , walk us through that. I mean , in some ways , it was pretty simple. You had a whiteboard in the background and you kind of went to work , but talk , you know , paint that picture with that video , but also what you were thinking there. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. So all the different news organizations , I think , feel like they have different roles. And that voice of San Diego. We're a smaller news organization and I don't we don't generally see our role as like breaking news , like we're not going to be at the front lines. An immigration raid , like saying that , like telling people this is happening. It's more of an educational role or like analyzing context or investigating things and so on social media. I really like to take the approach of like , like a civic education approach , because that's like the role that I think that I can play in that conversation , rather than like trying to compete with all of these other organizations that are doing like breaking news or the day to day. So I went ahead and I was I had seen the raid that happened at Buena Park at in South Park , and wanted to see how I could help in that conversation and noticed that there was , um , people are talking about , oh , ice is in South Park , or Ice is in this neighborhood or wherever they might be. But if you look at the footage , a lot of the uniforms said HRC. And I'm like , okay , well , what is that ? And it's Homeland Security Investigations , which is kind of like a subsection of Ice. And just like understanding these agencies seems very basic , but it's important , like if you're trying to like notify people in the community , oh , like there's an , you know , a government person out here who could , like , potentially try to deport you , like , and they're wearing like coming from all different kinds of agencies with all different kinds of uniforms. Like people might not understand that that's the role that that person is playing in that moment. And there's like differences between like Ice and Border Patrol and the things that they do or are allowed to do. Um , so I wanted to like , make sure people had that information to , like , understand all of this other coverage that was happening in the community on that issue. And that's kind of the role that I've been trying to to take.
S1: And then , you know , in another video you did tackled the way city Council meetings worked , um , and you took a really creative approach there. One was kind of pretty nostalgic to me. We have a clip of that we'll play.
S4: Are you a concerned citizen who wants to make a difference in your community ? Do you enjoy languishing under the fluorescent lights while listening to your neighbors air their niche municipal grievances ? Perhaps you want to voice some concerns to your local elected officials. If any of these apply , you should consider attending a public meeting.
S6: It's just like.
S1: Oh man , that just cracks me up. I mean , everybody of my age , you've definitely seen a video like that. It kind of hits on one common aspect of a lot of my experience on social media , and that's humor. So , you know , talk about , you know , how you took this thing of breaking down public meetings , which may not be the most , like , exciting , enthralling topic into this piece.
S4: Right ? So you can't see , you know , on , on radio. But the , the video I took this like very intentional , like vintage. I filmed it on like a camcorder from the 90s. Like , the quality is really bad. Um , I made like some vintage looking graphics. And I mean , for one , as I kind of said earlier , you're like tricking people into learning something by being entertaining. Like that topic , how to engage at a public meeting is pretty much as dry as it gets. It's very important because all of us go on the radio or online and like inform people about things. But like , this is like the next step in being informed is like going to a meeting and like doing something about it and being engaged. And so making sure people have that information was important , but it's super boring. And so I decided to do this , like vintage approach , like one , because I love vintage aesthetics myself. I'm like always been obsessed with like analog old technology. So it was like a good creative challenge for me. And also I just think that , like , the videos do better when it's clear that it was something I was passionate about. And so like being able to like , take that creative approach and do something different , I think like really resonated with people. It was like kind of fresh in an ironic way because it was like clearly copying things from the from what comes.
S1: Through , even in the tone of your like your delivery. Right. Even that's kind of reminiscent of times past to me. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. And I think that also satire just like plays really well. It wasn't like a full satire , but it was clearly like like pointing fun , poking fun at this thing that used to happen a lot. Or it was poking fun at this , like old style of journalism. And when you like , look at humor on social media , so much of it is just like , satirical or like making fun of the way that people are and that kind of thing just lands. And that wasn't necessarily what I was thinking about when I was making it. But I do really think that , like having that like authentic creative approach when it comes to social media , it translates. And people can see that if you if you aren't authentic , I think people can read that and they're going to think you're trying to sell them something. And so.
S5: Yeah , I was gonna add to that because the authenticity part , I think is a big deal. And like what you said about being passionate about what you're talking about , that comes off as authentic , too. It's it's really a big deal on social media. One of the biggest things people can tell right away is if it's fake. And if it feels fake , then , like you said , it feels like they're trying to sell you something or like , you know , they're they've been paid to do it. Part of that is because of the nature of the platform. There are so many people who are being paid to say this or that , who are being paid specifically to like , sell you a product , or they'll be like trying to tell you like , this is the biggest problem for men under 40. And then you at the end of it , it's like an ad for pills or something. And so you can always tell right away , and the audiences are savvy on social media to tell right away if something's authentic , if it's genuine , and if you are , like , actually passionate about it , that comes off and that makes a big difference.
S1: You know , there's authenticity. And then there's also obviously like information and determining what's real and what may not be. How do you think about that in terms obviously we've seen new industries of of citizen journalism news influencers , which is kind of what you were talking about. But , you know , how do you view that in this landscape of , of reporting on the news via social media ? Jake.
S5: Well , I think that it's it's just another platform that news organizations have to have to reach it and have to put their content on. And I mean , clearly , there's people out there who are going to produce news related content and , you know , be citizen journalists and stuff like that. Um , because there's an appetite for that on social media. And so that's why it's important for the news organizations that , you know , have the editorial process and have like , actually trained reporters who know what they're doing. They need to go out and put their content out there , too. And that's not to say that , you know , independent journalists and citizen journalists aren't important and don't know what they're doing , but they fill their role. And then , like more legacy news , organizations have to be putting their content on there so that people know , you know , there's a difference between KPBS and just me with my phone. And like , there's a difference between an organization that has a group of people dedicated to working on journalism. And then , you know , one person who has their take on stuff that's going on. There's a place for both of those , but there's also an important part of getting these news organizations onto social media so that it's not just the other type of journalism.
S1: Coming up , we talk more about citizen journalism , news influencers , and the ultimate potential for news on social media. That's ahead on Round Table. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm your host , Andrew Bracken. Today we're talking about how social media is changing , how we experience the news and the potential for social media journalism. My guests are KPBS , Jake Gara , along with Bella Ross from Voice of San Diego. Bella , how do you view kind of the space of citizen journalism news influencers , I assume , like you follow a lot. I kind of break down how you view that in your work. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. It's so interesting that we're talking about this today because I've been thinking a lot about this in light of there's this massive Instagram account called Diego TV. Yeah. And they are probably the largest news source by the numbers in San Diego. They had like 300,000 followers , which well outpaces all of the other like main actual news organizations. And Diego is not a news organization. They've covered like hip hop and culture. But for years , yeah , for years they've been more or less stealing content from local news organizations. Like literally copying pasting stories from the Union-Tribune , like from NBC or CBS as their captions and pushing it out and getting a way bigger reach. And people have really appreciated that for a long time , partly because they saw it as this kind of like independent source of news that wasn't associated with these like big institutions that people have started , you know , not to trust as much. But I just found that so ironic because you're they're literally stealing the news from the organizations that you claim not to trust. And so it's really shined a light on this interesting dynamic where people will trust something more because it's not from a news organization. And that , I think , is something that we have to be really mindful of. Obviously , as news organizations , when we're entering these spaces where I'm trying to embrace a very human approach , like you're seeing my face , I'm talking in a pretty casual tone , like it's like very distinct from something that you would see in a traditional TV package. I'm not wearing a blazer. Most of the time I'm like , I'm trying to be like , very casual and human and show them like I'm just another person in your community. And , you know , maybe I work for this , like official organization , but that doesn't inherently mean that , you know , there's some kind of agenda behind what we're doing.
S1: And just to kind of go back what you were talking about , Diego TV , what they're called , you're talking about Diego TV and their account was taken down.
S4: Oh yes , I didn't I don't know if I really clarified that , but yes. Dago TV , um , mysteriously Disappeared from Instagram sometime this week , and it's not clear whether. They're going to come back or why they were deactivated , or if it had anything to do with the fact that they had been taking content from their local , local organizations for so many years. But all these comments are coming in saying , oh , I'm really going to miss this unbiased source of news. Where am I going to get my news now ? And that's always just been so interesting to me because there are a lot of organizations , news organizations , doing very good work.
S1: Well , brings up another issue I kind of wanted to bring up to you. And that's , you know , one unique aspect of where you're putting these stories out is that they're on these social media platforms , these tech platforms that have , you know , very particular algorithms , have very particular systems of how content gets raised , gets pushed , doesn't get pushed. I think the term chasing the algorithm , we hear that a lot , right ? How much do you think about these platforms for which you're building content for and how that connects to audiences you're trying to reach.
S5: Well , I mean , I think about it a fair amount in the approach to the videos that I'm making. But there's also , you know , only so much you can do to chase that algorithm before you have to just know that you're going to make the video that you make , you're going to tell the story that you tell , and then it's going to reach the people that it reaches. And that's , you know , that's fine. It it's not going to I'm not going to change the way that I'm reporting things or change how I'm , you know , approaching a story or especially not change any of like the content of a story based on trying to , you know , catch somebody's attention. Like there's ways to there's ways to present the information and make the video and record it that are more eye catching and stuff like that. And you're going to keep people paying attention , but you can only do so much to , you know , Chase that nebulous algorithm and whatever it means and whatever it might be from day to day before , you know , some billionaire changes it. So.
S1: Bella , how about you ? I mean , how do you approach this ? And also , just like the trends are always changing. Sure. How much do you kind of chase the algorithm ? Yeah.
S4: I mean , I agree with Jake. I think that , you know , we talked about authenticity and doing stuff purely for the algorithm. I feel like honestly , often doesn't do well. Like , I think if you're making , like , really good content that is like , in tune with your audience , it's more than likely going to do well regardless of whether it's algorithm optimized. And there are certain things that I do because it's social media , for instance , I , I change up the frame a lot because people's attention spans are so terrible. If you linger on just your face , the same shot of your face for like 30s , you're going to lose people , but the message will be the same. Yeah. And I also think it's it is frustrating , though , because you see things like when Instagram , um , started doing reels , like that kind of thing was really incentivized , like posting reels was doing well , better in the algorithm because they wanted reels to do well. Because they wanted to compete with TikTok. And so then you have things like , you know , TikTok deciding one day , oh , like we're going to actually start incentivizing longer videos , like we want videos to be longer. We feel like those are doing well. And so all of a sudden they're incentivizing these longer videos and the algorithm like they're doing better in the algorithm. And so I don't necessarily think that we should change our approach because of that. But it is interesting like seeing how the social media like changes these companies like change their dynamics depending on like whatever , like business agenda they have. And we do have to be mindful of that for sure.
S1: So , you know , kind of as we wrap up here , I'm just curious , how would you like to see social media change in the coming years when it comes to news and how we consume news and how we create news ? Jake.
S5: Well , I it's a bit of a pipe dream , but there used to be a pretty good platform that had a pretty good system for disseminating news content. And I'm talking about Twitter , of course , back in the olden days. But the reason why it was so good for that was because of. Honestly , the verification system that would give people the ability , the ability to tell between who is an actual reporter , who's a news organization , who's doing , you know , real journalism , and then just some random account that's posting stuff. It didn't mean you couldn't get a following or whatever as an unverified account or whatever that that meant. But the point was that there was a way to delineate a journalist and not a journalist or an organization that is , you know , a news organization and not and I know that I'm not asking for a specific method to be applied to social media , but I do hope that people can start to understand that there's a responsibility for the consumer to understand those differences , and then also be able to consume news content without giving into sensationalism and giving in to a lot of the other things that are incentivized on these platforms. So hopefully part of that is civic education and getting people to understand , you know , what is actual news and what's reality and what's not. This is a big ask , but it's it's a big , important space. And hopefully social media creators and the people who are putting out good content can continue doing that in a way that gets people to understand the difference and , you know , can follow along with what's actual good investigative journalism , stuff like that.
S1: Bella , the final word here. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. I mean , I also miss Twitter. Nothing has really replaced it. And so rip , I could go on for days about all the things that I wish social media companies would do differently , but what feels a little bit more within our control is I would love to see news organizations take social media journalism more seriously. I spent many years , like , struggling with employers who didn't want to invest in this kind of work. And I've really been fortunate that I've had people along the way who've kind of like , seen the vision. And at this point it's working. But , you know , it kind of runs contrary to the for profit business model because you're basically , as I see it , giving away information for free. People aren't clicking through to the website to hit the paywall. And so it's it really undermines that business model. But we've seen that this business model in general just isn't really working across the board. And so I hope that we can really get creative to think about ways that we can actually , like , serve people in communities and meet people where they're at and like , not get stuck in these , like , old ways of doing things that just clearly aren't working anymore.
S1: Well , I think each of your work demonstrates a lot of that. So I want to thank you both for kind of sharing more about your thoughts and your approach to your work. Bella Ross , they're a social media producer with Voice of San Diego. If you want to find them on Instagram , they're at Bella , Maya , Ross and Jake Gatta is KPBS social media host and reporter. His Instagram is Jake gotta that's gotta Bella Jake , thanks so much for joining us on roundtable this week.
S5: Yeah of course.
S4: Thanks for having us. For having us.
S1: Thanks so much for listening to KPBS roundtable. You can listen to the show anytime as a podcast. KPBS roundtable airs on KPBS FM at noon on Fridays again , Sundays at 6 a.m.. If you have any thoughts on today's show , you can email us at roundtable at KPBS or leave us a message at (619) 452-0228. Roundtable's technical producer this week was Brandon Truffaut. The show was produced by Giuliana Domingo. Brooke Ruth is roundtable senior producer. I'm your host , Andrew Bracken. Thanks for listening and have a great weekend.
