S1: Welcome in San Diego. It's Jade Hindman. On today's show , defense attorneys who work with the Criminal Justice Act program aren't getting paid during the shutdown. We'll talk about the impact of that. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. The government shutdown has left many federal workers without pay for the last month , and for defense attorneys here in San Diego and across the country. The shutdown is also exacerbating their funding situation and has left them without pay for even longer. Well , Alex Riggins is a reporter with the San Diego Union Tribune , where he covers federal courts and federal law enforcement. He joins me now to talk about the funding situation for local defense attorneys and the impact on the court system at large. Alex , welcome to the show.
S2: Thank you very much for having me.
S1: Glad you're here. So , a few months before the government shutdown. Federal funding for this Criminal Justice Act program had already expired. Can you talk about that program and how it works ? Yeah.
S2: That's right. So the Criminal Justice Act , um , you know , essentially every defendant in a federal case is , is guaranteed a , you know , has a Sixth Amendment right to a defense attorney. Um , there is the federal Defenders of San Diego , which is essentially the , um , public defender's office. And and they take , uh , you know , about half to 60% of , of defendants who can't pay for an attorney. Um , but in cases with , you know , multiple defendants or for whatever other reason , that federal defenders can't take a case , um , those cases get assigned to private attorneys. And that's what , uh , the Criminal Justice Act funds is , is those private attorneys as well as , uh , interpreters , investigators , everything that defense attorneys need to properly defend a client under their constitutional rights. And so that funding , as you mentioned , ran out in , in July actually well before this government shutdown. Hmm.
S1: Hmm.
S2: They're not , um , you know , they're not employed by their government. Uh , they what what they're usually has to do when things are running normally is they submit vouchers , uh , and then they get paid for their work. Um , once a once a case is complete. Um , what they've been doing since July is submitting these vouchers and hoping that once there is a funding bill that they'll get , uh , you know , back pay for , for these cases that , that they are completing. Um , but for the time being , they're working for free. They're not getting paid. Um , and sometimes , you know , these these cases can go on for years at a time. And so , uh , you know , many , many , many hours , uh , many thousands of dollars owed to them. And if these cases are ending , you know , recently , in the last few months , they're not getting paid for for any of those. Hours and that they put in over the years. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. Well , you know , you alluded to it before , but yeah , more than 90% of defendants can't afford attorneys. And as you mentioned , they are meeting the need when public defenders can't take those cases. So how many CJA attorneys are actually working within this program ? Yeah.
S2: So here in San Diego there's a there's a main CGA panel. It's about 100 , a little over 100 attorneys. Um , there are also there's also a panel for material witnesses. Those are , um , you know , if there's a human smuggling case , uh , you know , the people being smuggled become witnesses in the case against the smuggler. And so there's a separate panel that handles just those , um , those , uh , those witnesses. Um , so there's about essentially 120 or so of these , uh , of these CGA attorneys. There's. There's a few others that that work on appeals and things like that. Um , but yeah , there's about 120 of them , and , and there's a good chunk of them now , uh , that are either , uh , resigning from the panels or going on hiatus , just not accepting new cases. Um , because they just , you know , I can't afford to work for free while this is ongoing.
S1: Talk to me about the kind of cases that are unique to San Diego , and why this work is so needed and difficult.
S2: Yeah , sure. Since we're on the border here , uh , you know , we get tons and tons of cross-border cases , whether it be , um , you know , your , your simple , you know , uh , illegal entry of someone coming from another country and crossing the border illegally and then , um , you know , being arrested , uh , there's , you know , cross-border drug cases , a lot of people , you know , trying to drive across a port of entry and being stopped and having drugs found in their car. Um , and of course , all these people , like , like all of us have this constitutional right , um , to , to a defense attorney. Um , it's one of the most basic principles of justice , right ? Is that , you know , there's there's the prosecution and then there's the defense. And everyone has a right to those attorneys. And so these attorneys , these CGA attorneys , these private attorneys , they step in. Um , when , when the when the federal government can't provide , you know , a defense attorney through the federal defenders of San Diego. And again , if there's a if there's a , let's say , a drug importation case where there's three , 4 or 5 defendants , um , federal defenders of San Diego can only take one of those defendants because representing more than one would be a conflict of interest. And so , um , you know , any multi defendant case , you have to have these CGA attorneys , uh , you know , stepping up to , to fill in that void. And so that's , that's the work that they do. Uh , they're not , you know , super well paid for it. But a lot of them that I've spoke to just they tell me they , they do it because they love the work and they think it's important , um , you know , because because this is a constitutional guarantee that we have these defense attorneys. And so they do it kind of out of a out of a pride and a passion of , of , of upholding the Constitution. And so it's , it's very hurtful for them to , to work so long without being paid. And as the government shut down , uh , keeps going. You know , it just it just makes it worse and worse for them. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And you spoke to several defense attorneys who've been without that paycheck for at least four months now.
S2: Uh , you know , I spoke to one couple. They're they're both defense attorneys. Uh , they they don't work together , but they're both defense attorneys. And both take on both said about , you know , more than 90% of their cases are CGA cases. Um , and , uh , and the wife is six months pregnant. And so , you know , obviously with the , with their first child on the way , um , they , they can't afford to keep working without pay. It's it's just impossible for them. So they're looking at other ways to , you know , try to take on , uh , either retain clients or , other type of legal work. Um , others. Other attorneys are doing the same , and then a lot of them also mention the plight of their interpreters , that they work with , their investigators , that they work with , their sentencing mitigation specialists that they work with. All of these people are are super important for for any case. Um , and those people as well are working without pay. All of them since , since July 3rd or earlier.
S1: So , you know , this , this crisis in funding , um , as you mentioned , is also affecting interpreters and other experts. But talk more about the impacts of that. What does that mean ? Yeah.
S2: So so what it means is a lot of these , uh , interpreters and other experts are seeking other ways to make money. And so then it it , uh , you know , it forces fewer and fewer of these experts to take on more and more cases. So they're , you know , they're on top of not getting paid. They're burnt out from working 6 or 7 days a week , you know , ten , 12 hour days. Um , it's just a really bad situation all around. You know , they're they're dipping into savings , they're taking out loans. They're they're trying to make it work because they believe in this mission , uh , you know , this constitutional right. But it's it's really difficult for a lot of them , um , to keep doing this , uh , you know , without without knowing when that paycheck will come or sometimes , you know , even wondering if that paycheck will come. Uh , you know , for , for this back pay for all the work they've been doing. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Uh , how does all of this impact defendants and their cases ? Yeah.
S2: I mean , and that's the thing that a lot of them speak about is , is they're worried about , you know , they figure , you know , we're attorneys. We can handle ourselves. You know , we can we can find other ways to make money. But , um , they worry about their clients and defendants not , you know , not getting , um , the , the defense , the high quality defense , um , that these attorneys provide and not getting this defense that they're , that they're entitled to through the Constitution. Obviously these attorneys are , you know , greatly concerned that as more and more of them have to resign or go on hiatus , um , that defendants here will be left without , uh , you know , not just without high quality representation , but maybe at some point without representation. And then and then that raises , you know , even more serious questions about how , you know , how prosecutors can keep , uh , filing these cases and , and keep going on with these prosecutions if , if defendants don't have anyone to defend them. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. The impacts are far reaching. Um , tell me who are some of these , these experts that we talked about a little earlier that are being impacted by this ? Yeah.
S2: So , uh , there are interpreters , you know , so many cases here have , have , uh , Spanish speaking elements. So there are Spanish interpreters. There are , uh , you know , investigators. Right. Uh , with if you're a defendant and you want to , you know , properly defend your case , sometimes you have to go out and do extra investigation that , uh , you know , the law enforcement agency didn't do to try to find , you know , witnesses that can help your cause or whatever the case may be. There are. Um , you know , at sentencing , uh , sometimes people bring in , uh , mitigation experts to help explain , you know , why this defendant shouldn't receive such a long sentence because of , you know , a childhood trauma or , you know , just whatever reason. So there's there's experts that help , you know , that help defendants testify as to mitigating factors for for sentencing. Um , there are forensic experts , uh , you know , people who , you know , if the if the crime involves some sort of , um , you know , digital evidence , uh , forensic experts are hired to to go over that evidence to make sure that it's , um , that it's all good and it's what prosecutors say it is. And so , yeah , there are many experts and , uh , and all of them have been asked to work without pay as well , which is obviously difficult for , for all of them.
S3: You know , zooming out.
S1: Is , you know , we talked about it a little bit earlier , but is there concern that this could really lead to delayed court proceedings or even some sort of collapse in the criminal justice system. Certainly.
S2: Certainly. Certainly there is. Yeah. I spoke to the chief justice here in the Southern District of California , and she expressed concern , uh , you know , that judges will have to start dismissing cases if if , you know , there's not enough , uh , defense attorneys to represent all of the all of the defendants here. And another huge concern looking forward to the future is that if , you know , whenever Congress does pass a new , uh , you know , a new budget , um , if they don't provide enough money , uh , there's this this problem is going to repeat next year , but but probably even sooner than July. Um , what what happened with this , with this last budget was that , um , the the funding was , was provided at a , at a previous year level. And so it wasn't enough to meet the current year. And so if they do that again , if Congress funds , um , you know , defender services at that lower level. Again , this problem is going to repeat , but even sooner next year , probably in March or April. And so then these attorneys will be asked to work , you know , this time five , six , seven months without pay. And that's going to lead to obviously a ton of problems.
S1: And I'm sure that'll be something that you are following next. And we'll definitely have you back on to talk about that aspect. I've been speaking with Alex Riggins , federal courts and federal law enforcement reporter for the San Diego Union-Tribune. Alex , thank you so much for your time.
S2: Thanks again for having me.
S1: That's our show for today.
S4: I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
