S1: Hey there , San Diego , it's Andrew Bracken in for Jade Heidemann today , a researcher working on the impact technology's having on childhood shares her rules for parenting in the age of smartphones and social media. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities to conversation. Managing kids screen time and tech use can feel like a full time job for a lot of parents today. As growing evidence shows a correlation between excessive screen use and mental health issues. Families are often struggling to find rules and guidelines in an ever changing technological world. Well , Gene Changi has been raising concerns about screens and kids for years. Chang is a researcher and psychology professor at San Diego State University. Her latest book is called ten rules for Raising Kids in a High Tech World. And Jean , welcome back to Midday Edition.
S2: Thank you.
S1:
S2: And just for context , I have three teenage kids myself , so I have been there. Um , some of it is it seems like everybody else is doing it. And especially with teenagers , that's what they want to do. They want to do what their friends are doing. And so it's very , very tempting for parents to give in when a kid says , but mom , everybody else has a smartphone. But all of my friends are on Snapchat or on Instagram , and that may or may not be true , first of all. Second , they don't really need social media to communicate with each other , so you can say no to it. I have found that a lot of other parents I've talked to have found that there's so many other ways for kids to communicate with each other. They can text , they can FaceTime , they can see each other in person. They can call each other on the phone. They don't have to have algorithmic social media to do it. So kids are going to make that argument. But you have to stand your ground and still say no.
S1: And standing your ground. I mean , that kind of blends into that first rule , which just really the parent being in charge. And in this book , you delve into some of the different parenting styles we often hear about today. I don't know , helicopter parenting , gentle parent. You know , we hear about all these different types.
S2: Loving but firm tends to have the best outcomes. But that's kind of a mouthful. And it's also sounds too similar to one of the other parenting styles , which is authoritarian , like My way or the highway. So in the book , um , I give each a an ocean animal name. So the one for the best type is dolphin parenting. I saw a book called Dolphin Parenting and I thought that was clever. Um , the idea is the skin of a dolphin is firm but flexible. So that's the analogy of being loving but firm. Firm but flexible. I'm trying to find that happy medium that. Yeah , get to know your kids. Talk to them. Show your love. Show your empathy. But also have rules and have guardrails in place. So then you don't have a free for all. And you don't have the teenager whose job it is to push boundaries. Ending up with a phone with no controls. And it takes over their life.
S1: And you're kind of , you know , in this book you talk about rules and the importance , you know , in your view of setting them and sticking with them. You also kind of talk about conversations , and that's something that comes up a lot , is we want to talk to our kids about technology , but you really make the point that that has to kind of happen on top of the rules , not in place of. Can you talk more about that and why you think that's such an important point ? Absolutely.
S2: Yeah. You really have to do both. So the the , you know , first couple chapters have um , seven conversations that you should have with your kids about technology , but you should not stop there because what happens is you can talk to your kids as much as you want. But as just one example , the social media companies have poured billions into making their apps as engaging or as some would say , as addictive as possible because that's how they make the most money. The longer people spend on those apps , the more money they make , not just from advertising , but in your data. So you're the product. So that's that. For example , it's a great example of a conversation you should have with your kids. However , they can know that they can even have a basic understanding of what an algorithm is , but that's not going to really stop them. If there's no parental controls in place from scrolling through Instagram for hours and hours at a time because those apps are very powerful , the algorithms are very powerful. And that's especially true for teens , where they don't have a fully developed frontal lobe. And when interacting with friends and seeing where you stand in the social order is extremely important.
S1: You know , your second rule is no devices in the bedroom overnight. And I think we've had you on Midday Edition where you've you've talked about the importance of sleep for young people and technology not getting in the way of it , but tell us more about that and why that one is such , you know , number two. Right. I imagine it's a pretty high priority for you.
S2: Yeah it is. So I tell people , if you can follow only one rule , that's the one that you should follow. Rule two. And that's just because sleep is so crucially important for both mental and physical health , and because the research is so definitive about how much technology can interfere with sleep and how common it is for people to have their phone on their bedside table and look at it right before they go to bed , and that's the last thing they do before they go to bed. It's the first thing they do when they wake up in the morning , and it is not a good formula for sleeping well. There's a ton of studies on this. If , for example , your kid is scrolling through social media in bed on the device before they go to sleep , they're going to sleep considerably less like 45 minutes less. One of the studies says , and their sleep quality isn't going to be as good and those effects add up. You end up with a pretty sleep deprived kid , not to mention it making noise and buzzing in the middle of the night. Um , even if it's on Do Not Disturb , though , there's studies showing it still has an effect on sleep because you know it's there. The brain knows it's there. So getting that device physically out of the bedroom is important. What people often say next is. But I have to have my phone in my bedroom overnight because it's my alarm clock. To which I say I have some advice for you. By an alarm clock.
S1: Yeah , I actually had to do that. And I go through that process myself. Um , you know , I kind of a related rule here just to mention it. You talk about no phone zones. It kind of sounds like the bedroom , particularly in the overnight hours , is one.
S2: Because role modeling is absolutely important. It shouldn't be just , hey , say what I , you know , do do what I say , not what I do. It has to be role modeling as well. So for example , family dinner , you want to have that conversation. You want to carve out that even 20 minutes during the day when you can sit around the table as a family. That should be a no phone zone also for the adults. If you don't want your kids to be on their phones scrolling during family dinner , you shouldn't be doing that either.
S1: So you have kind of already mentioned this , but in addition to being a researcher on this topic , to , you know , writing several books now on it , you're also you play a different role as parent , and that's something you really don't shy away from in this book.
S3:
S2: And I think at first when I first started analyzing this data , my kids were pretty young. And so it just wasn't , you know , quite as as relevant to to their experience. But as the years went on , I really had that collision between my life as a mom and my research life. So I feel like I had been writing this book in my head for about seven years. And so it ended up not being hard at all to combine those things , because through the research , you know , I was much more cautious about introducing smartphones to my kids early on. We so we discovered these alternatives to smartphones like basic phones designed for kids. We also developed the rule of your first smartphone when you get your driver's license. These are just all things that came out of that collision between being the parent of three and also doing the research in this area , so they really informed each other.
S1: That's pretty interesting.
S3:
S2: Say I've got two out of three , and then the third is a work in progress. Um , just when it , I mean , and that's , you know , kids are different. That's going to be the way it's different. Yeah. Um , but my , my oldest , um , who's a legal adult. And so , you know , I know what she's comfortable with me talking about with her. Um , she's 19 , so she's a college freshman , and she's also in the Navy Reserves. Um , so she's really a full blown adult now. And , um , she had a flip phone until she was 16.5 , and she says that's one reason that she finds it pretty easy to talk to people , even strangers. That she got that practice , you know , face to face and or at least just calling people on the phone. And she still likes doing that. She still prefers to call people rather than text them or be on social media. Um , and I think having that experience during her childhood and early adolescence helped a lot with that. Um , she also had something really interesting to say when I was talking to her about how the most common pushback that I get , which is , but kids have to be on social media , they'll be ostracized or to be completely left out or they won't have friends. And she said , you know , anyone who will only communicate with you on a specific platform is not actually your friend.
S1: Well , that's pretty , pretty wise for a young person. I mean , one thing that I thought was interesting that I took away from your book , speaking of that is just , you know , how these concerns are not just in the realm of parents and adults , but you actually kind of wrote about some of these cases where it's like evidence of young people are acknowledging they're not really happy with the role technology is playing in their childhoods.
S2: When I first started giving talks on technology and mental health , it was , you know , 2017 , 2018 , and it was high school students , college students , I was sure. I was afraid that they would be like , okay , you're old , you don't know anything. But these surveys are based on young people themselves. And sure enough , they know. They know full well it isn't good for them. They just don't know how to get out of the trap a lot of times , because it feels like a social trap in many ways. Uh , and there's just in the last couple of years , really interesting research , polling , um , asking young adults things like , you know , do you think the world would be a better place if certain things had been invented ? And a large percentage say they , for example , say that they think the world would be better place if TikTok had never been invented. May I think it's the majority of young adults say that , uh , they , they they're fully aware that they didn't get the childhood and adolescence that their parents and grandparents did.
S1: Well , um , you know , you did mention kind of over the years how things have changed and there has been some change , whether from tech companies making maybe some changes to platforms , some laws from the state level , from other places. But I'm curious how you feel the rate of change is happening.
S2: So there has been some really good progress , particularly in the idea of no phones during the school day , bell to bell. So the phone free schools. Um , that has really gained momentum in the last couple of years. So I think there's been a tremendous amount of progress in that area , including enough.
S1: Here in San Diego. San Diego Unified has implemented a policy over the last couple years.
S2: Yeah , but there's still issues. I think one of the things that we really need a lot more regulation is social media. So the law is that kids have to be 13 to be on social media , but it's it's not really enforced and age isn't verified in any reliable way. It's like a checkbox or you lie about your birthday and you're in. So it's really common. And we know this from lots of surveys that ten , 11 , 12 year olds are on social media and that just should not be happening. I mean , just enforce existing law. That would be progress. But 13 is also way too young to introduce social media. I mean , what parent or educator or developmental expert ever said ? 13. Middle school. Right at the beginning of puberty. That's the best time to introduce social media. No one would ever argue that 13 was a compromise with the tech companies. Back in 1998 , at the dawn of the internet. It wasn't for a developmental reason. So Australia recently passed a law raising the minimum age for social media to 16 and requiring that age be verified. It's supposed to go into effect in December. So I think their experience will be very informative for governments around the world who would like to put that into place. And some states have tried to put that into place in the US , but they've immediately been sued by the tech companies.
S1:
S2: I mean , I still really strongly feel that kids 15 and under should not be on social media at all. But if we want to make incremental progress , the idea of their feed should be chronological rather than algorithmic. That'd be great.
S1: You mentioned some of the progress that's been made in schools having phone free schools , but you recently published an opinion piece in the New York Times that kind of took aim at a pretty common school device , and that's the school laptop. And I know this is a tricky one , even personally. So , you know , tell us , why is it such a concern for you , the school Chromebook , as it's known in my house. Yes.
S2: Yes. So there's there's a number of reasons. So for one thing , you can't put parental controls on a school laptop. So you have to trust the school to do so. And their controls are incomplete and sadly , often ineffective. So the incomplete part , uh , one of the things that that , uh , prompted me to write the op ed is that , uh , my 13 year old turns out , was watching TV on her school laptop using Disney+. And my thought was , whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. How can that possibly not be blocked ? Now , I knew it had YouTube on it. That was bad enough that it was pretty unfettered access to YouTube. But I get the teachers maybe use YouTube , you know , in teaching , and maybe they wanted kids to watch a video at home. Like , I wasn't excited about that. And I still think they need to have limits on it , but I sort of got that.
S1: Exactly.
S2: Exactly. Yeah , exactly. And so the idea is that you're supposed to , I guess , hover over your kid every second when they're doing their homework or , you know , oh , have them do that. The dining room table. Well , then how are they supposed to get their homework done with the chaos that , you know , is the downstairs of the house ? It just shouldn't have it on there at that. And those controls should be there. So when I wrote the op ed , it was very interesting. Uh , my , the editor and , you know , several of his colleagues at the times were discussing this , and several people were like , wait , you know , are teens just getting around the blocks ? Yeah , sure. Sometimes that's what happens. They find workarounds. That's also a problem. But what is mind blowing to me is that a lot of these sites aren't blocked to begin with. Like , there just wasn't even the effort put in the block put in to begin with. So it it there's nothing stopping them.
S1: So you've been , you know , following the data. You identified issues with technology and young people going back to the 20 tens , really in your work. You are constantly looking at these surveys of young people and comparing it to previous generations. I'm curious if anything is giving you optimism about technology and young people today. Are you seeing any any evidence that some of these concerns that you've been raising over the past several years are really having an effect ? Hmm.
S2: Maybe. So I really , really qualified. Maybe. And then it tilts toward maybe not. Um , let me say , though , that I do have optimism about Gen Z overall. It's just one example. Not only are they aware of these impacts of technology , and many of them are working for more regulation and better laws in this area , but they want to help people. And that's one of the huge strengths of this generation. And we see that , you know , in these objective analyses of surveys as well , that they're more likely to say they want a job to help other people. They're more likely to say that it's important to help other people. Um , and I think that's amazing. And I see this in my undergraduates as well. They're very caring. They're very nice. I think that really bodes well. The technology piece is still very concerning , though , because we have not had as much change as I and many other people would like to see. So they're the little bit of good news in this area has a big qualification , which is that. So depression rates , just to give the full picture , doubled among teens and young adults between 2011 and 2019. So before the pandemic then they got even worse during the pandemic. And then they've come back down in the post-pandemic times of 2023 , 2024. They've come back down to 2019 levels. So maybe that's progress in dialing back on some of the technology. But my best guess is now my best guess is that's coming back to normal after the pandemic. So those stats are getting better and maybe it's because of more awareness are around social media and smartphones and all of these things. But my guess is probably it's just recovering from the pandemic.
S1: Jean Chaney is a professor of psychology at San Diego State University and author of the book Ten rules for Raising Kids in a High Tech World. Professor , thanks so much.
S2: You're very welcome.
S1: That's our show for today. I'm Andrew Bracken. KPBS Midday Edition airs on KPBS FM weekdays at noon , again at 8 p.m.. You can find past episodes at pbs.org or wherever you listen. Thanks again for listening. Have a great day.
