San Diego's camping ban takes effect this weekend

S1: This week on Kpbs Roundtable. The city of San Diego's controversial homeless camping ban takes effect this weekend. Welcome.

S2: Welcome. Different approach than they've done before because they are doing more of a of a stick than just a carrot. This time they're saying we've got a new ordinance and we're going to start enforcing it.

S1: But it's unclear exactly when and where that enforcement will begin.

S3: The city has said that it plans to start enforcement near parks or in parks , rather , and near schools , but they haven't identified which parks will be covered and which school areas they're going to be prioritizing.

S1: Don't go anywhere. Roundtable is coming up next. You're listening to Kpbs Roundtable. I'm Matt Hoffman. This weekend , San Diego's homeless camping ban is set to take effect. It's called the Unsafe Camping Ordinance. But how prepared is the city for these new rules that are meant to limit public encampments ? We're hearing enforcement will start on Monday , and that's going to be around some schools and parks most impacted by encampments. Here to help us break it all down , I'm joined once again by Lisa Halberstadt. She's the senior investigative reporter with voice of San Diego. And Gary Worth is also back with us. He's now a former reporter with the San Diego Union Tribune. Great to have you both back here on Roundtable. You guys have been really good. This whole process from when it was proposed to one finally got voted in to now. We'll start with you , Lisa. You had a recent piece listing out all of the things that the city had to do before this encampment ban actually took effect. And we know that's going to be this weekend.

S3: And I have been asking for status updates for a couple of weeks now. The things on the city's to do list , including things like putting up signs where initial enforcement will occur. Having training and guidance for police and even selecting where the enforcement will start. Because officials have said that the enforcement will start in certain park and school areas , but they haven't identified which ones or even which ones may be under consideration.

S1: And we know that this unsafe camping ordinance , it prohibits encampments in all public places , but that's only when shelter beds are available. It also gets a little bit more narrow. It doesn't allow tents near , quote , sensitive areas. You kind of just touched on it like schools and parks , and that's regardless of shelter , bed availability.

S3: There's within two blocks of shelters or schools along major transit areas , parks , canyons , for example. But the city has said that it plans to start enforcement near parks or in parks , rather , and near schools , but they haven't identified which parks will be covered and which school areas they're going to be prioritizing. Now , the city needs to identify specific parks because the ban does not apply to all parks. The ordinance actually says that the parks need to be identified based on a substantial public health or safety risk. So last I heard , the city was fielding commentary from council offices looking at get it done , complaints , you know , talking to city staff to try to understand which Parks would qualify under that.

S1: And Gary , let's get some of your thoughts here in your view. Has the city done enough for this camping ban to take effect.

S2: Enough to take effect ? Do you mean enough that it's really going to we're really going to see a substantial decrease in homeless encampments ? Well , you know , the optimistic part would say that remains to be seen. But , you know , part of me thinks , well , we've seen these type of efforts before and we haven't seen much of a decrease in what we're seeing on the street , though. So this is just the latest of teams to try to address homelessness on the street , on the encampments and saying , once again , this is just not acceptable. We have shelters. People should go into the shelters , this little different approach than they've done before because they are doing more of a stick than just a carrot. This time they're saying we've got a new ordinance and we're going to start enforcing it. But yeah , I feel the same frustration as Lisa about not knowing exactly when the start gun sounds on it. We think it's this weekend , maybe Saturday , but we haven't heard where they're going to do it. We've heard vaguely that they're going to address these specific areas , you know , around schools. Some parks don't know if they've got any signage up yet. They were supposed to have signage up. Then again , I know that cops for weeks I've been telling people because I've talked to people who are in a campus and they said the cops have told them , you know , there's going to be this ordinance. You're not going to be allowed to be here anymore. So they have been telling people about it. But , no , it's it's it's like the same thing that we've we've been wondering for for weeks.

S1: And Lisa , actually , in one of your recent articles , you wrote that there was a lot of confusion , particularly in areas of downtown San Diego. And we know that that's where there's a higher number of unhoused residents , a lot of services down there.

S3: And when I visited folks who stay on the border of East Village and Barrio Logan the other week , many people told me they weren't sure what was. Going to happen next. They were within two blocks of multiple homeless shelters , but they had told me the folks I spoke with , that the police and outreach workers hadn't told them exactly what was going to be happening. Things got more confusing the last couple of weeks because the police have been clearing those areas using the existing encroachment ordinance , which is essentially blocking a sidewalk , not the camping ban ordinance. So there's been a lot of speculation about whether this is a crackdown tied to that ordinance. But the police have said the two things are not related. They were simply clearing areas where there were safety issues , like people's camps getting into traffic and impeding traffic. But there's been a lot of confusion , I would say , both because of the lack of clarity of how this enforcement is going to come down and then also this recent enforcement. The city officials are saying that the two things are not linked.

S1: Earlier this week , Kpbs spoke with San Diego City Council member Stephen Whitburn. And Whitburn is the one who actually proposed this ordinance , along with San Diego Mayor Todd Gloria. Here's how Whitburn says it's going to work.

S4: If people refuse to take advantage of a shelter or safe sleeping site when it is offered to them , then the law can be enforced. The first time somebody would refuse a shelter , bed or safe sleeping site , police officer would give that person a warning a second time that they declined shelter or a safe sleeping site. They could receive a misdemeanor citation. And the third time there could be a custodial arrest.

S1: And Gary , we know that there's an outdoor I think they call it a , quote , safe sleeping site , as the council member referred to. It recently opened near Balboa Park. The city provides tents and some other services there. But generally , though , we hear the council member talking about people cannot refuse shelter.

S2: There's not enough to house everybody in the city or obviously in the county. But , you know , there's not supposed to be a 1 to 1 shelter bed ratio that we wouldn't have like 4000 shelter beds available or an additional 4000 shelter beds available. The idea is that people are not going to be in a shelter for the rest of their life. We're not going to take everyone out. So yeah , but you know , it is clear that the concept isn't to address , you know , just to have a shelter bed for everyone who's now on the street. The idea is that people will go into shelters , they'll work with housing navigators , case managers , and and they'll move on to something else. Though , however , there definitely is not enough shelter beds for the people who now want the shelter beds. So that's that's where this is gets confusing because , you know , we hear the term that they're reluctant to have any kind of assistance. And though and and Lisa and I both know that people try to get into shelters every day and they're turned away because there's not enough shelter beds. So that's the other side to it. And and people , you know , are being told that all these people on the street , they don't want to go in a shelter. So we have to force them into it. Either , you know , you're going to get cited , you're gonna go to jail , maybe , but you can't avoid all that. If you go into a shelter. Now , there's people trying to get into shelters , like I said , every day. And we don't have enough shelters now. And and the city knows that. That's why they're opening up new shelters. That's why they said we were not going to do this new ordinance until we got at least this one off the ground and we got another one planned. And it's great that the having no different types of shelters because I've heard from a lot of people on the street that they don't want to go into a convention shelter , but they would give something like a safe camping site a try , though. But it can be confusing , though , with the way that is framed , which is that we're finally going to force people to go on to shelters as though they're not trying to get in already and that we have a bunch of shelters just full of empty beds and they're wondering where everybody is.

S1:

S3: On an average day , there are only about 23 shelter beds available in the city of San Diego , and they're typically filled up by noon. So think about that population that we're talking about here. More than 3000 people unsheltered in San Diego. I believe it's 3285. And the latest count. And when you look at shelter referrals that go through the Housing Commission's referral process on average and I've been following this for a while now , over over the last several months , two thirds of shelter referrals don't result in a person actually getting shelter. And so this idea that nobody's seeking shelter or that there's plentiful shelter is just false.

S1: And so I guess a follow up question. Of both of you. And Gary , you could go first here. Have we heard that that is going to complicate any of this rollout of this ordinance ? Obviously , one part of it near the sensitive areas does not rely on shelter bed availability. But the other part in terms of , you know , no encampments in all public areas , it relies on shelter beds being available.

S2: And again , that's why they said we're timing this for an opening of of two new safe camping sites. So one that's already open. Does it complicate things ? Yeah , it will , because if they open up that safe sleeping site , you know , at the start of this month and there's already people going into it , which is a good thing , people are using it , but that's for everyone that went in. That's one less site that they can use to try to use as an enforcement tool , though. So , yeah , theoretically they're going to that's going to fill up. And when it does , then because of the the Boise decision , they're not going to be able to enforce it theoretically , You know , if they're following the law , they could follow it up to the point when all the shelter beds are full. And so shelters are homeless are already completely full. So. You know , there's only a few people that can force into a shelter every day before the shelter is full. Right. So , you know , you're not going to see big sweeps. You're not going to see like dozens of people in one time just being shuffling off to whatever new shelter might open up. It's just not going to work that way. You know , so , you know , they're not going to have a lot of of enforcement capability following their own law that , you know , or following the the law that they're trying to follow.

S3: And two points on that , too. One , that there will be enforcement in sensitive zones like in the parks , near schools and shelters. So we could see significant movement of people in those areas. But they're likely to move to other areas where they feel that they can be when shelter is not available. Um , and I think it's also really important to note that we've also been , I believe I've been on roundtable talking before about the police staffing crisis that we have. You know , the police have said that they have a shortage of officers and their response times are climbing. Um , and so it's not clear to me yet how this is going to work out with police staffing. The police department has told me they think that there are some dynamics with this ordinance that will make it easier for them to enforce this than other laws that are now on the books. They've also said that they're going to try to have patrol officers follow up after the neighborhood policing division , which is the primary group of officers that work on these sorts of things. When they move on , patrol officers will come in and and try to keep folks from returning. But experience shows , Gary and I , I think he was talking about this earlier that , you know , after they do enforcement in an area often camps build up again as soon as they go and focus on another area. So this is really complicated and the police are likely to get complaints through , get it done in other areas once they crack down on the area that they've gotten a lot of complaints on. They go and do enforcement in another area because then they've gotten complaints on that. So this is complicated.

S2: Another issue we we haven't talked about is so Rod gets arrested. He doesn't want to go on a shelter. He gets arrested because he goes to jail. Well , he's going to get let out. You know , he's he's going to you know , they're going to spring him. He's will have a court date. How long is he really going to stay in jail and is he going to move on from there ? It's like they're not going to sit in him to prison for five years. So , you know , you've you've taken a guy off the street. Maybe you'll find him or about that he won't be able to pay. And then he's going to be back on the street , though , you know , So it's it it could just be a cycle for some people to found , you know , incur being incarcerated , being let go , being incarcerated again , you know , But this , you know , an ordinance like this is going to put somebody away forever , although they're going to be back on the street if they really don't want to go in a shelter.

S1: And Gary , I think exactly what you were just expressing is what some homeless advocates are saying , that enforcement is not going to help the situation on the streets. We have a clip from Janice Wiles. She's with Housing for the Homeless. And here's what she told us earlier this week.

S5: A camping ban is not going to house anyone. Housing is what solves homelessness. We know we don't have enough of that. We have to build more of it. We need to have a more humane way to help people on the street other than criminalization , which is fiscally irresponsible. People will be physically and mentally harmed by this.

S1:

S3: Most outreach workers I've spoken with are worried about losing contact and trust with the clients that they're working to try to get off the street. Um , they have had issues when there have been big crackdowns in the past. One worker who I spoke with during a big crackdown last summer had lost contact with a handful of people that had housing matches come up who he was trying to find so he could move them into housing and never was able to find them. I did speak with one outreach worker the other day who is hoping that the ordinance will get more people to say yes to shelter. And I know some neighborhood groups certainly are hoping for the same. But going back to the point that Gary and I were were discussing earlier , for all of this to work , there have to be available shelter beds and there aren't always available beds.

S1:

S2: To make a big difference does remain to be seen. But I interviewed those business owners who filed a claim against the city , and they're saying that we're losing business and they said a dollar amount. This is how much you owe us because of your inaction , though. So they're hearing that from people. And there is a sense that we got to do something and this is what they're doing for now.

S1: Coming up , more on what the camping ban means for San Diego and how unsheltered residents are feeling about looming enforcement.

S3: They are worried it's going to make their lives , which are already hard , even harder. One man told me he's already bracing to be arrested.

S1: Our conversation continues just after the break. You're listening to Kpbs Roundtable. You're listening to Kpbs Roundtable. I'm Matt Hoffman. We're talking about the looming enforcement regarding San Diego's camping ban and what it could or could not mean for the region. With us as Lisa Halberstadt from Voice of San Diego and longtime homelessness reporter Gary Werth. You know , guys , addressing homelessness is certainly a top priority for elected officials. Right ? And it's something that , as Gary just pointed out , it's on a lot of people's minds. But sometimes the voices of those who are living these experience , who are on the streets , who are living in their vehicles , aren't heard from nearly as much. But I know you've both been speaking with those people.

S3: They are worried it's going to make their lives , which are already hard , even harder. One man told me he's already bracing to be arrested. A few folks , as I've been out in the community talking to folks , they they hear there's a reporter around. They've run up or tried to flag me down to ask what they should do or to just have me explain what I know about the ordinance. And I think that's been really telling , too.

S1: And Kpbs reporter Melissa may , she talked with some unhoused residents this week about this looming enforcement. Christopher Zamora says he's been homeless for the last few years and here's what he told her about this camping ban.

S6: This enforcement thing isn't going to help nothing because we spend all of our time moving our stuff around , that stuff that a little bit of stuff that we have kept. We still do have we try to protect and they make us move from here to there with enforcements every single like twice a week , sometimes every other day. They make us move up from here. It's just the rigmarole of just having to jump through hoops that are pointless because those are that's the time that we're spending , not getting jobs , not going to get resources , not getting health care , not getting benefits from from with food and Cal Fresh and things like that in which all of us need. Because that's that's that's what it takes to to survive out here.

S1: And Gary , I know you've spoken with a lot of unhoused residents. Is what Christopher saying there something that's uncommon to hear ? No.

S2: And I think it speaks to the need for just having more of everything is needed , more caseworkers who can help everybody who does need help. There's a lot of people on the street. They you know , they may be newly homeless and they may be in a situation that they don't know , you know , how to help themselves. You'd be surprised at what people on the street do know. And you'd be surprised that sometimes what they don't know. I talked to a guy one time on on 17th Street and I asked him , would you ever consider going into a shelter ? And he said , Yeah , I think so. Said , Where would I go ? And I pointed to the Alpha Project shelter on the corner. It's right there. And he was like , Oh , I had heard something about that. So , you know , then again , there's , you know , people do know a lot about about services that are available , but there's a great need for for people to be able to to access things that they need just to stay alive. And , you know , we just need more people working with with people on the street.

S1: There's also questions about where this camping ban stands legally legal wise. Gary , when the city council voted five four to implement it , some were worried that it could violate existing law. And a recent case in Grant Pass , Oregon , as an example of that. And you referred to the Boise decision a little bit earlier , which is very similar. Here we have a clip from legal analyst Dan Eaton. He says he expects that the ordinance to be challenged in federal court like very quickly after enforcement starts.

S7: The grants pass case in the ninth Circuit. It essentially said that this a small town in Oregon , could not criminalize people taking precautions to guard against the elements in sleeping outside if they were in voluntarily homeless. The ninth Circuit said , if you don't have beds that are available for these people , you can start the process that would lead to criminal charges if they are sleeping outside where they have nowhere else to go.

S1: So , Lisa , as we mentioned , there was definitely debate at the council meeting about all this. But bottom line , it sounds like that the city thinks that they're on stable footing when it comes to the legality of this.

S3: In a memo from the city attorney's office that was sent out before the city council vote , the city attorney's office emphasized that the city does , though , need to be able to provide a shelter. Her bed that an individual can accept. So that , for example , could be if we have a woman who is disabled or who is a senior , she would need a bottom bunk at a woman's shelter. She couldn't go to a shelter that serves men or transition aged youth and be in a top bunk.

S1: And Gary , I know that you mentioned the Boise decision a little bit earlier.

S2: The Boise decision was basically was went up to a a appeals court and ended there. And the decision was left basically that you can't enforce , cite people for sleeping in public places if they have no other place to go. And so if they can't afford a hotel room , if they can't afford an apartment , if the city doesn't have an available shelter bed. So that's been taken seriously by by jurisdictions. For instance , in Oceanside , they created a hotel voucher program specifically because of that decision , though , and they didn't clear out a large homeless encampment until they've got that up and running , though. So , yeah , this really it's what it's all about. But there's other things that are going on besides the Oregon situation. There's in in Arizona they're they've been clearing out an area called the zone in Phoenix where there was a very large homeless encampment. And the there is a judgment , I believe , against the city when much like what was happening in San Diego , where some business people were suing this the city for not doing anything , and a judge said you you do have to do something and they are taking steps to clear out this this encampment called the Zone. I'm not sure how that plays in the legalities of what we understand the Boise decision is it's like it's kind of a new frontier for trying to deal with homeless encampments through enforcement , though. And it that while there have been decisions yeah it they may be appealed. They may be overturned they may have some new decisions though. So I think we're just going through a process right now that's not quite over.

S1: Yeah , all these court proceedings happen and you know , it's like , is there progress one side or the other ? And I know we've heard elected officials express , you know , frustration with with some of that or people challenging that , including San Diego Mayor Todd Gloria. And I think , Lisa , the last time we had you on roundtable , you kind of talked about the shift in tone that we had heard from him when it comes to homelessness , when it comes to enforcement. We know that he's been a big proponent of this ban. Has he been saying anything in terms of like now we're on the heels of it potentially going into effect.

S3: So what he has been saying in his weekly newsletters is that there's not going to be an overnight difference in what homelessness looks like in the city once this goes into effect. He said , you know , this is going to be scaled up. You know , he has mentioned that parks and areas near schools are going to be prioritized first. And obviously his has said that , you know , he's he is looking forward to having this new tool. But we haven't really heard many other details. And I'm very much looking forward to those and plan to keep asking the questions.

S1:

S3: Um , you know , Gary and I were talking about this before. I think we both share this sentiment , but it's going to be interesting to see how this enforcement actually plays out in the impact that it has. It's going to be very difficult for the city to enforce this in a way that has consistent impact on street homelessness , the rollout of this. There are a lot of details that we still don't have , and it's been difficult for people who will be really impacted by this to prepare for house people who desperately want to see disruptive homeless camps come down in their neighborhoods , and also for homeless people who are desperate to understand exactly what's going to be happening happening next so they can decide what they need to do. The city also still needs to grapple with safe shelter options for people who have health issues , who can't go into traditional into traditional shelters , including seniors. So maybe people who can't use the restroom on their own , they struggle to get around on their own. They can't eat on their own. There are people on the street who have these conditions , and right now they often can't be in city shelters.

S1:

S2: We and and the city is getting a greater variety of shelters. But , you know , not that aggressively. Like we have a senior shelter which serving seniors has wanted for a while because there is a need for you for that for a few reasons. Like people want to have a bottom pot , but they're also not very comfortable being around , you know , in a congregant environment with a lot of people not their age , but the one that we do have is temporary. It's it's in a it's in a motel that's probably isn't going to be around forever. And , you know , they're kind of get an LGBTQ shelter. You know , we got a new women's shelter , a new family shelter coming coming on online. But , you know , it's good to , you know , address those needs and and , you know , and like a white people might have turned away from shelters before.

S1: And Gary , we should note that you are no longer with the San Diego Union Tribune. You recently accepted a buyout after the newspaper was sold to a hedge fund. And I have to say , as somebody who follows your work , you set up a lot of examples. Also , Lisa as well , too , but truly a loss for our region , having one less person covering homelessness.

S2: I'm kind of do my best to not transition from the homelessness reporter to a homeless reporter that says move on. But the media has to , I think , follow Lisa Stokes as , as , as someone who really knows what's going on and has taken the lead on on this front. In many ways , though , I think that we have to not to a knee jerk reaction about covering homelessness. If there is an incident involving a homeless person to not report. Oh , this is another example of the homeless crisis and how dangerous people are , though , to remember to tell the human side to the story and at the same time listen to the other people who are affected by this. Listen to the homeless advocates. Listen to the homeless people themselves. Listen to. Everyone who's who's being affected by this. The people were frustrated as well as the as the advocates , the activists who who demand to have something done. I don't think that covering it is an easy thing to do. It shouldn't be a simple thing to do. And because this problem is a complex problem and it should be addressed as good journalist to have of getting all sides of the story. Lisa.

S1: Lisa.

S3: Jerry , what what you said about me is so kind , but I just really want to emphasize what a loss you're leaving the is for the community. So many readers who relied on your coverage , but also for other journalists. I know I was one of many journalists in town who would read all of your stories and the information that you gathered and whether it was the statistics or the personal stories. It helped our reporting. It made us better. And you just worked so hard till the end. Mean , guys , Gary was literally filing stories on his last day , so he should be very proud of all the work that he's done. But I'm very sad about his departure.

S1: Well , we'll still pull him in when we can here on Roundtable if he agrees.

S2: I got nothing else today to share.

S1: We'd love to have you here. Well , you know , guys , we've definitely covered a lot of ground here , but there's much more happening just outside of the city of San Diego. A shelter in Oceanside is opening up and Chula Vista Motel will be converted into , you know , kind of more permanent supportive housing for homeless in Chula Vista.

S3: That voice of San Diego intern Catherine Gray has been doing. She's been following this still relatively new tiny home village in Chula Vista. The project's been underutilized so far , and we're trying to learn more about how it's operating. And thus far , she has a lot of unanswered questions. And I think a lot of times we focus a lot on what's happening in the city of San Diego. But Chula Vista , Oceanside , a lot of these other communities , they do have large homeless populations. We do need to be tracking what they are doing. And of course , you mentioned Chula Vista voted this week to move forward with the motel project. I think it's important to note , too , that the city of San Diego and the city of Chula Vista were the only two cities in our large county that saw its state. Homekey funds this round to support homeless housing projects. And we know that the need is great throughout the county. So I think I think Mayor Gloria would be cheering me on as I say this. But we really do need to look at , you know , communities throughout San Diego to see what they're doing. And certainly the mayor has been calling for us to do that at his press conferences recently.

S1: Oh , yeah. Something I've definitely heard him saying as well , too. But Gary , what are your thoughts here ? Yes.

S2: You mentioned project in the last large story that I did , lengthy story was on looking at the recent criticism of Housing First , which the project Homekey Properties would would follow. It's a , it's a federal and state , uh , you know , a strategy of , of housing homeless people. And it had been pretty much bipartisan support , um , you know , through the Bush and the Trump administration's. And just in recent times , it's been like something's been called a failure from Republicans saying that we should move away from it. And I just didn't get it. So I did a story on it and I looked at an example of hotels that were bought by the city a few years ago and that followed Housing first. And the criticism of it was that we're just you know , there's there's no requirement for a for drug rehab for these people to go in. And that's true. That's what Housing First means , is that we want to house people as a first step. But how was it critics are they showed this graph that shows like in 2016 , Housing First was implemented in in California and look how much house homelessness grew since then. That doesn't make sense. You can't convince me that housing homeless people somehow created more homeless people. And , you know , so I asked Luke Bergman , who runs behavioral health for the county of San Diego , how many people who went in these hotels were , you know , people who were using drugs ? And he said 25% self-identified. It's probably more than that. And it's like 12% , I think , had had gone into treatment already. And most of the people are still there. So 15% had moved out. But he said they moved most of those moved into other permanent housing. So it's like people are conflating a couple of things like , well , yeah , they may still be using drugs , but they're not using drugs on the street. And now that their lives are more stable , maybe they won't die in the street. Maybe they'll be more successful going into rehab. That's the whole point of it. We're all on the same page here , though. We do want to save people's lives. And this actually was a way of getting people off the street permanently into housing. They're still there. So that was like the last big story that I did. But Bergman also stressed , don't use two hotels that are two years old as an example. This , you know , we need much larger samples over a much larger period of time. But those studies exist. And they showed that , you know , Housing First hasn't been a failure , though , but wanted to , you know , look at the one small example with a small population to see how it was working as an example that people could relate to.

S1: And we know that , as Lisa pointed out , those Project homekey , that state funding that requires a Housing First model to be used. But we're going to have to wrap it up there. Great discussion. I've been speaking with Gary Worth and Lisa Halberstadt To both of you. Thank you so much for being here and helping our listeners kind of weed through this camping ordinance.

S3: Thanks for having us.

S2: Sure thing. That.

S1: When Kpbs roundtable returns. We'll hear about a few other stories we're following in this week's roundup , including the idea of repurposing shopping malls into housing. You're listening to Kpbs Roundtable. You're listening to Kpbs Roundtable. I'm Matt Hoffman. Now it's time for the roundtable roundup. And producer Andrew Bracken is here with us with a list of some other stories that are catching his eye around San Diego. Andrew , how's it going ? Hey , Matt. Great to have you here.

S8: We had Haley Smith from the Los Angeles Times , and she talked a little bit about , you know , a story she worked on. She went out to Death Valley and covered that story and mentioned a hiker whom she spoke to that unfortunately passed away from the heat. And she just did some more additional reporting on that. She wrote an obituary about the man. His name is Steve Curry. And then she published a piece more recently just about her reflections on the heat and covering that heat in Death Valley and encountering Steve Curry on his last day. And I thought it was just an important piece and an interesting read to follow up on , especially after our conversation last week.

S1: Yeah , it was very well well told story and obviously very unfortunate what happened there to Mr. Curry. But , you know , as we discussed in that roundtable , I think Haley was the one that brought up this point , is that , you know , obviously when it gets hot , you know , we hear general things like , you know , don't go out or don't do strenuous exercise during the hottest parts of the day. Make sure you're hydrated. But she was saying that she thinks people sort of underestimate that. And heat is , as we know , it can be a killer. And it's something that Eric Anderson also mentioned , our environment reporter. So if you haven't caught that roundtable , definitely go back and take a listen. All right.

S8: And it's something that's been done in other parts of the state. State regulations on making it easier to shift from commercial properties to more residences have gone through recently at the state level. And so he's just kind of putting forth some of these ideas of where we could see some transformations in property in areas like Mission Valley. We've seen a lot of these sort of like communities where you put housing next to some commercial properties and they all kind of live in the same community.

S1: And I think he did that column because of the news about the Mission Valley Mall being sold. And like developers may be eyeing like some housing being I don't know if it's like , you know , let's tear down the Macy's and build up like some apartments , but they want to build some housing there , right ? Yeah.

S8: And there's a Macy's there that's been vacant for some time and there's definitely opportunities for how we shop has changed. So obviously the role of shopping malls has been transformed as well over the last couple of decades. And we need housing. So it does make sense that housing projects would move in this direction.

S1: And if you just think about it too , like most malls are right by transit , especially if you're talking about like Mission Valley or Fashion Valley. And there's obviously food , there's places to buy clothes and other essentials. So in a way it kind of makes sense. It'd be nice to just kind of roll out of your house and go pick up some food instead of having to drive somewhere. But definitely an interesting concept. I don't know if that would be affordable housing , though. I can imagine those being some pretty pricey units. All right.

S8: And I've just been thinking a lot about this because we got our organic composting bins. And I think we've been thinking a lot about that in our homes if like how we can reduce food waste , compost , things like that. But this study found that food waste from grocery stores is particularly high , and one thing that would help would be changing to a dynamic pricing of groceries. So with perishable items , you know , fruits and vegetables as it gets closer to them , expiring them , lowering the prices and making it , you know , more enticing for people to buy and use those products rather than just the amount of of food that just gets wasted because people don't want to buy a banana that's about to expire tomorrow.

S1: Yeah , no , I think it's a really interesting concept and maybe some people are familiar with that in some senses. Like I can remember going to the grocery store by my house and sometimes there'll be not it's not a lot , but they'll have like certain meats that are maybe a little bit discounted because like you said , they're going to expire. But yeah , that that story that we have on our website , Kpbs , Zorg. The researchers found that more than 10% of food waste comes from grocery retailers who just throw out , you know , perishable food that's past their expiration date. So it kind of does bring up that that interesting example of , well , you know , do they want to make some money on it anyway ? And then it also kind of helps reduce some of these greenhouse gas emissions. Definitely one of those stories that that really makes you think.

S8: Yeah , I think that that study did mention , you know , up to 10% of greenhouse gas emissions are from food waste. And so it's it's pretty sizable problem.

S1: Definitely sizable. We know the city of San Diego is taking their own steps with some of the green waste bins to try to tackle some of that. But I know it can be confusing , though , in terms of what you can put in a green waste bin.

S8:

S1: Very interesting. We don't have them yet at my place , but looking forward to that rolling out. All right. It sounds like you got something else.

S8: I definitely been interested in the ongoing writers and actors strike in Hollywood. We keep hearing a lot about it. The Los Angeles Times actually published a story on particularly like musicians response to these strikes and how kind of a lot of the similar issues that the actors and writers are asking for and fighting against are things that have kind of already happened to many musicians. This is sort of seeing costs and payments decline as this new digital transformation happens. Music is primarily driven by streaming today , and the amount that musicians are getting from these streams as much less than in previous generations through CDs or through other music sales. So it's basically just an interesting take of like , hey , you know , why aren't we as musicians taking actions like the actors and and writers are ? And the fact is , is like most musicians. Are not unionized in , you know , to the level that actors and writers are in Hollywood.

S1: And I know that part of what the actors and the writers are talking about is , is this streaming ? You know what I mean ? Like the royalties that come from streaming and you know how companies , big streaming companies can buy a series and they pay a set rate instead of going off of how popular it might be.

S8: They get paid by stream as opposed to like unit sale , you know , CD or an album that happened more frequently in years past. And just what they're finding is , I mean , I saw an interview with the rapper Snoop Dogg and he was sort of talking about he's like , just it doesn't add up. You know , he's I think the way he put it was sort of like one plus one doesn't equal to like , I don't know where that money is going. And so his point is it's just he's not seeing that level of for how many plays he's getting. He's not seeing that level of residuals that he would expect.

S1: It's definitely like that interesting conversation as we shift more and more to digital how this is all going to work out. Andrew Bracken , thanks so much for being here on the roundup.

S8: Thank you , Matt.

S1: That's going to wrap up this week's edition of Kpbs Roundtable. If you have any thoughts on today's show , we want to hear from you. Leave us a voicemail. (619) 452-0228. You can also email us roundtable at pbs.org. If you missed any part of this week's show , listen to the Kpbs Roundtable podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Our show airs on Kpbs FM at noon on Fridays and again on Sunday at 6 a.m.. Roundtable is produced by Andrew Bracken , and Rebecca Chacon is our technical director. I'm your host , Matt Hoffman. Thanks so much for being here with us. Have a great weekend , San Diego.