10 years of exploring the mysteries of the human mind

S1: Welcome in San Diego. It's Jade Hindman on today's show. The podcast Hidden Brain celebrates ten years. I spoke with host Shankar Vedantam about the success of the show. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. The podcast and radio show Hidden Brain has been enlightening listeners about the mysteries of the human brain for years. The program explores how it drives our behavior , how we live , how we love , how we can change. And it does it all through engaging storytelling that can make you forget you're actually learning about science. Hidden brain is now celebrating its 10th anniversary , and we are lucky to be joined by the familiar voice behind the show , Shankar Vedantam , welcome to Midday Edition.

S2: Thank you so much for having me. Jade , it's a pleasure to be here.

S1: Oh , it's an honor. So listen , you have such an interesting show all about the mysteries behind human behavior.

S2: In some ways , it's a show that has evolved over time , and I think we have discovered what the show is during the ten years of our production. Hmm.

S1: Hmm. Very interesting. You know , Hidden Brain often highlights the role the unconscious mind plays in our actions and really raises questions about who really is in control here , us or these mysterious forces behind the scenes. Do you think we underestimate the power our unconscious mind plays in our lives ? Absolutely.

S2: Jade , I think when we all think of our minds , we imagine that we are aware of what's happening inside our minds. In fact , that's the sense that I have right now. As I'm sitting here talking with you , it turns out this is a very powerful illusion. Much of what actually happens in our minds happens outside of our conscious awareness. Not all of it is malevolent or nefarious. Many of the things that are hidden brains do , are done with an intent to help us focus on what really matters. So you and I are having a conversation now. We're focused on the conversation , and so my brain says , I don't really need to tell Shankar about all the other things that he has to be doing right now , because right now he's he's focused on the conversation with Jade. So the hidden brain is not always malevolent or nefarious , but I think there's no question that at every moment in our lives , it has a finger on the scale.

S1: It does , you know.

S2: I wrote about these ideas extensively in my 2010 book , which was also called The Hidden Brain , and it looked at the role that unconscious biases play as we go through our lives. Again , I think all of us believe that our actions are intentional or deliberate , that we decide who we vote for in a presidential election , that we decide what we're going to order in a restaurant. In many ways , marketers and political campaign specialists know better than that. They actually know that people are manipulable and that there are specific ways that they can be manipulated. And one of those is to exploit our unconscious biases. And so , unfortunately , even though we all feel like we are clean machines , this turns out not to be true.

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S2: And if you think about some of the things that social media does , you know , it prompts us , for example , into getting really outraged about lots and lots of things. And of course , that suits the interests of the companies that run these social media platforms. Their algorithms have discovered that over time , people are more likely to stay on the platform when they are constantly fed a stream of things that upset them , that make them angry , that make them fearful. And so the algorithms , mindless as they are , are giving us more things that we should be outraged and angry and fearful about. And as a result , I think social media has made us a much more polarized , worried , anxious people than we might otherwise need to be. Hmm.

S1: Well , and I know that something you dig into on your show. Listen , you know , people often ask me what shows or conversations are my favorites. And I usually , you know , respond by saying something like , it's like choosing my favorite child , you know ? Um , but I am going to put you on the spot here.

S2: I have actually finished working on that episode about , you know , anywhere from a month to two months earlier. Most of my reporting and the interviewing and the editing are done. You know , well ahead of time. And so by the time the interview is actually published , I've actually moved on to things that are coming down the pike. People have asked me over the years , what's your favorite Hidden Brain episode ? And I always tell them , it's the one coming out next week , and I'm only half kidding. It's partly because I'm really focused on the episodes that are coming in the future than the ones in the past , but there are many episodes I think , that stick out over the last ten years. I think some of the best episodes we've done look at the role of communication , for example , why it is that human beings end up misunderstanding each other so , so much. And what we can do in some ways to bridge those gaps in communication , those are some of the episodes that really stick out to me.

S1: One aspect of your show that amazes me is how you tell these rich , science centered stories , but all with a a deeply human and relatable core to them.

S2: Our goal at Hidden Brain really is to not just make science , you know , interesting and not just make it accessible , but to make it relevant. And the way you make science relevant is that you connect it to stories that people can see in their own lives. And so when we tell stories about researchers or about other people who've been through certain experiences , and those experiences illustrate certain psychological concepts we're talking about , our goal at the show is to have people think about their own lives. In fact , I sometimes joke to my colleagues that the goal of Hidden Brain is to get people to stop listening to Hidden Brain and start listening to their own lives. And I think we want people to be asking themselves , why did I have that conversation last week with my spouse ? Why did the discussion with my manager go off the rails last month ? How can I be a better friend ? How can I be a better neighbor to ask themselves questions about their own lives and the stories we tell. In some ways are the grappling hooks , where listeners can hear these stories and hear echoes of their own lives.

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S2: People are going to be sitting down in the next few weeks at Thanksgiving tables with friends and relatives whom they might not always agree on. Let me share a couple of really simple but useful communication tips. One is , I think when people disagree with us or have very strong opinions about something , it's helpful to remember that this is often coming from a place of fear. One of the episodes that we looked at some some years ago explored the idea that in our long evolutionary history , we were often prey animals. You know , we were worried about predators. And so the sense of fear is deeply woven into the human psyche. And so when you have people express strong opinions , very often underneath those strong opinions is some kind of a deep fear. Now , you might not agree with people's opinions. You might , in fact disagree with them violently , but you can empathize with the fear that they have , because that fear in some ways is not dissimilar to the fear that you have , and that prompt your own strong opinions no matter what. The other very useful tip to remember is that when we are trying to persuade someone else of our point of view , we often focus very much on telling our side of the story as eloquently as possible. And of course , that's understandable. But a far more effective technique is to ask what makes sense from the point of view of our listeners. One of our guests on Hidden Brain had a wonderful analogy. You know , he said , if you're trying to sell a used car , you don't tell the person who's coming to buy the used car. All the things you're going to do with the money. Once you sell the car to them , you tell them about all the good things about the car , why the car makes sense for them to buy , and in some ways , we would be wise to follow that same advice when it comes to all kinds of communications.

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S2: I continue to find that idea in many ways mind bending Jade. When I think about my own mind , even though I've done ten years of episodes looking at all the ways in which unconscious factors affect us , I do feel as if I am a completely conscious , deliberate , and intentional creature. And I think it's that idea , that idea that even as it feels as if everything that happens in my mind , I'm aware of much of what's happening in my mind I'm not aware of. I think that idea continues to be mind bending and endlessly interesting to me. Wow.

S1: Wow. I've been speaking with Shankar Vedantam from the Hidden Brain podcast. Hidden brain is celebrating its 10th anniversary. You can listen to the show on KPBS FM every Saturday at 3:00 or wherever you get your podcast. Shankar , thank you so much for being here and congratulations on ten years of Hidden Brain.

S2: Thank you so much , Jade. It's been a pleasure.

S1: That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.