S1: Hey there , San Diego , it's Andrew Bracken in for Jade Hindman. Today , online sports gambling has become big business in recent years. We talk about its addictive nature and how to treat it. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. In 2018 , the US Supreme Court lifted a ban on sports betting. And since that time , the industry has boomed. Much of that growth has come from online sports betting. Nearly half of American men under the age of 50 have an account with at least one online sports book. And today , it seems like you can hardly watch a game , a sports show , or listen to a sports podcast without hearing all about the overs and unders and props and all the gambling lingo that goes with sports betting culture. Robbie Thiel is a licensed clinical psychologist here in San Diego who focuses on digital addiction and online sports gambling. Robbie , welcome to Midday Edition. Thanks for having me.
S2: And that seemed to be the tipping point in my mind where it had been. It had become so integrated into televised sports , you know , the advertisement , it had started being talked about by sportscasters. That was the tipping point.
S1: Oh , that's interesting because , yeah , I kind of had a question for you about that of like how much you think , you know , this sort of like cultural normalization around gambling. Again , it's all over ESPN. I think ESPN The Sports Network has their own sports book. You know , their own , like gambling part of the company.
S2: You know , that that inflection point where sportscasters and people within the industry are , are normalizing the betting of these games that's architected. They the advertising companies are definitely paying for sportscasters and people in the industry to normalize betting as as the new standard of sports watching and entertainment.
S1: So let's talk more about , you know , some of the differences that online sports betting or , you know , me going to a casino embedding versus , you know , this experience that that people are having online making bets.
S2: You can put on bets 24 over seven. You can wake up , you can be lying in bed , you can be thinking about it , and you can put on a bed and there is a game going on somewhere all the time. And we've really divided these sports book into the the ones within the US. However , there is quite a few that are international as well , and you can bet on ping pong in Czechoslovakia at any time of the day. You know , there is always a game. There's always something. You can be putting a bet on. So that's one aspect. The other one is a lot of these , uh , apps have push notifications. So if you are not engaging , they start bringing the book to you. You haven't put on a bet for this game , and they are definitely tracking your analytics. So if you always watch the Cubs , if you always watch the bears and you haven't put on a bet for a game , there's a really good chance you're going to get a push notification of this game's coming up and you don't have a bet on it. Engagement.
S1: So it's like you already have this gambling piece which has , you know , this addictive , addictive nature to it , potentially for people. Right. Um , and then now you're saying even the technology that this stuff's built on kind of further hooks you and kind of brings you in ? Is that what you're saying ? Correct. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. One of the psychological mechanisms that underpins this particular type of betting , more so than what you might find at the casino , is it creates a faster reinforcement schedule which draws you in. And this variable reward type of reinforcement is also the most addicting type of reinforcement schedule. So they have designed these apps and the way that you use them , not only to be very gamified. Um , gamification is a term in psychology where we start using game mechanics to create greater engagement. Um , so they have definitely leveraged that , uh , to increase the engagement with their users and make this variable reward schedule that really draws you into doing it more.
S1: So much like video games that we experience often. Yeah. So let's talk about who this is impacting the most in the intro. I mentioned it's almost half of American men at this point have at least an account. But from what I understand , it's also a problem involving younger college age men.
S2: So the research shows that online sports gambling is marketed and has is really focused on young men , young men of color , and those of lower socioeconomic strata. So pretty consistently in the research , we're showing that many of this is targeted towards that demographic. And when we look at the statistics of problem gambling , I believe it's 87% of all of the users are male. And they're really pulling for that demographic. And the messages that you get in the advertising that they're pushing is be a player , get in the game , you know , compete. Uh , there is this sense of camaraderie in the commercials , you know , put on bets , beat your friends bets , you know , put on and discuss the wagers. And that is not only helpful for the the apps that run these books , but it's also very helpful and encouraged by the sports organizations , too , because the more engagement that's that's what they want. They want your engagement. They want you talking about the games , they want you talking about the statistics because it increases engagement. And more people come and watch the game or pay attention to it.
S1:
S2: Um , certainly one of them is placing increasing , uh , size of the bets. Uh , there is. We look for how often , uh , somebody does place a bet , you know , frequency , you know , progressive , making larger and larger bets. Uh , we look at how much it is impacting them socially and relationally. Um , we look at how much of an impact this gambling is making on their underlying financial stability. Um , there there are more. But these are the kind of warning signs that we're really looking for. And statistically speaking , 70% of the profits from these companies might be might be up to 72 , but around 70 , 72% of all the profits are coming from 1% of gamblers on these sports gambling. So that speaks to just how much , um , these these companies know that where to to really put pressure is not in the most vulnerable places because they can extract the greatest quantity of value from the most vulnerable. And , uh , there's been a lot of wonderful news about this. Um , but , you know , we are seeing more and more people coming out saying , like , I have a problem and I've been trying to reduce it , so I but the more I reduce , the more I get these , these push notifications. And the more one. One example would be a woman who was interviewed and said , you know , like I hadn't made a bet in a while. So somebody from the company called me and talked to me about putting on a bet. And , you know , there are of course , you need to you need to only bet within your means. But how do we get you back engaged ? That's a that's a dangerous position.
S1: So , I mean , what it seems to me a little bit of what you're saying is that we need to kind of rethink the rules here , how these tools are built and add some potential , I don't know , safeguards. Safeguards there ? Yes.
S2: Most definitely. Um , and there's a lot of things that individual users can do , such as , you know , turning off those push notifications. Um , but we do need to create , uh , some degree of regulatory change , uh , to , to help safeguard people , um , because the vast majority of all users , uh , Make responsible bets and they they play within their means. Um , however , it is a small demographic. You know , they the statistics show that 1% accounts for 70%. However , that 2 or 3% , you know , above the one you know , accounts for a big chunk as well. And one of the issues is that sports gambling is right now the fastest growing addiction that we have in our society today , which is surprising and really noteworthy because we have also hit the inflection point of as of a little while ago , there are more daily marijuana users than there are alcohol users. Growing up at a time where , you know , marijuana was still fringe. It's outrageous to think now that that we've hit that inflection point. And same thing with , uh , knowing how fast other ones are growing. Uh , definitely. Online sports betting is still the fastest. It has exploded in the last ten years , and even to the point where last year the if I remember correctly , the revenue from online sports gambling just in 2024 was over 90 billion , and this year 3.1 billion was wagered just on March Madness alone.
S1: Yeah , I mean , just the numbers. It's incredible. And I do want to add one note. I mean , you know , in this the Supreme Court ruling from 2018 , it allowed states to open up to , you know , to sports gambling , basically. California has not. Correct. But , you know , you're a therapist. You treat patients in California. I mean , so I assume they're getting around these limitations of not being able to bet in California. Can you talk about how easy it is to bet here , even when it's not technically legal in California ? Mhm.
S2: Uh , so the way that a lot of people get around and still allows them to bet is they , uh , bet with companies that are not regulated by California is number one. But also the use of cryptocurrency is a major way of getting in , because all of these sportsbooks allow you to put crypto currency in as a wager.
S1: Which is much more difficult to track. There's a lot more anonymity there.
S2: Right , exactly. Which also creates potentially depending on who you talk to. Another problem point , because you're introducing a young generation or a younger demographic who statistically has less resources into another , arguably more volatile and , uh , investment vehicle , which is cryptocurrency. I have never had a sports gambler on my caseload that didn't also have a cryptocurrency account.
S1: So , you know , you talked a little bit about these safeguards that you think we should be thinking about when we're talking about , you know , betting on sports online , but , you know , back to your work as , as a therapist. What does effective treatment look like for your patients when it comes to , you know , online sports , gambling addiction ? Yeah.
S2: Uh , so because this has exploded so fast , the research has not been able to catch up. And there are major deficits in looking at the differentiation between male and female uh , gamblers. Uh , there is very poor longitudinal data. So there's a lot of holes in the research. Um , however , what we have found is , is that the major modalities for treating this , the ones that have been the most successful , is doing very good motivational interviewing , which is a therapy technique where a therapist or counselor helps the , uh , the patient , uh , address , recognize and get in touch with their own motivations for change and then helps them guide themselves. Kind of as the the air beneath their wings to go through their own change process and the direction that they want to go. Um , cognitive behavioral therapy , uh , there was is a major form of treatment that has been found effective. Granted , there hasn't been a lot of replication studies as of yet. Uh , last year , a study came out for graduated exposure therapy , uh , for the reduction of online sports betting. However , you know , even beyond a big formal therapy , there's a lot of harm reduction techniques that can be done along the way. I gave the example of turning off push notifications. That is a harm reduction technique. Um , creating a separate bank account. Now some individuals have the the fund money bank account where they can't touch the main one. And if they lose , what's in that bank account ? It's almost like only bringing your $200 to Vegas. That's how I do it. If you lose your 200 bucks.
S1: Don't need an ATM card. You just go cash.
S2: You just go with the cash. You're done. Right. Um , and there are some nice things about online sports gambling in comparison. It's not all bad. You know , generally sports gambling , there's limited resources you can wager. Um , because you can only wager what's in your account. It's not like you can be. What , IRA on this bet. Yeah. You know , individual retirement account. Uh , you can only play with the money that's in it. However , that still doesn't stop you from taking loans other places and borrowing money from friends and family. Uh , you can still get very much in the hole. And , you know , it can still cause a lot of problems , but it's different than the the physical Gambling where you're you have to look somebody in the eye and and make a wager and , and front the money.
S1:
S2: However , there is the , uh , a lot of let's see what what is the name of it ? It is the American , uh , Gambling Association , uh , has a lot of resources on it. Um , there is local support groups , Gamblers Anonymous here in San Diego. Uh , is is a major one. However , Smart Recovery is also addresses sports gambling at local meetings. Um , certainly. Gamblers anonymous is the largest peer support network in the nation. The second largest is Smart Recovery. Smart recovery deals with all addictions , including sports gambling. Um. However , if you're looking for therapy , you know the. A good place to start is at the local , uh , psychological association's , uh , the San Diego Psychological Association can make referrals to therapists specifically trained in gambling addictions. Um , oftentimes people that have insurance , you know , many insurance companies , you can call and ask for a therapist that does specifically do that. However , uh , referral agents and insurance companies sometimes miss the mark a little bit on on goodness of fit because they're so far removed. So if you're looking for somebody in your community , you know a good place to start is your local psychological association. The local psychological associations are a network of psychologists and therapists that know each other and can give good referrals.
S1: And speaking of the San Diego Psychological Association , you're going to be speaking at their Practice of Addiction conference this Saturday , June 28th. And we're going to have a link to that on our website at KPBS. Org. I've been speaking with Robbie Thiel. He is a San Diego based therapist with a specialty in digital addictions. Robbie , thank you so much.
S2: It's been my pleasure.
S1: That's our show for today. I'm Andrew Bracken. KPBS Midday Edition airs on KPBS FM weekdays at noon , again at 8 p.m.. You can find past episodes at KPBS or wherever you listen. Thanks again for listening. Have a great day.
