S1: Welcome in San Diego. It's Jade Hindman on today's show. Local students explore their multiracial background in the NPR student podcast challenge. Plus , more immigrants are being placed in isolation cells while on Ice detention. But first , red flags are being raised about white nationalist imagery and ice recruitment. This is KPBS Midday Edition , connecting our community through conversation. So NPR has been providing updates on the latest in a shooting at a Dallas Ice facility. Two detainees were killed and a third hospitalized. Despite that , federal authorities point to casings that indicate the attack was motivated by anti-ISIS ideology. The investigation into the shooting , however , continues , and NPR will bring you updates right here on KPBS. Out of our own newsroom , though , two of our reporters have been looking at how Ice is increasing its ranks as the Trump administration puts a major focus on increasing immigration enforcement , there are two part series looks into how Ice recruitment efforts are , using white nationalist messages and imagery in its recruitment efforts , and also relying on military veterans to help fill job openings. I'm joined now by KPBS investigative border reporter Gustavo Solis , along with KPBS military and veterans affairs reporter Andrew Dyer. Welcome to you both. Hello.
S2: Hello. Thanks for having us.
S1: Glad you all are here , Andrew. You know , I'm sure you've been following the news out of Dallas today again. You know , a deadly shooting happening there at an ice office.
S2: So we don't know all of the facts just yet , but , um , already , uh , Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security , Kristi Noem has put out a statement saying that reporting that is critical or looks to hold ES accountable for some of its actions is in part to blame for for violence against Ice officers. So it's definitely a ratcheting up of the kind of violent back and forth rhetoric.
S1: What are your thoughts on that though ? Does it does it like hamper down potential criticism or.
S2: I think they would like that to be the case. They don't like tough questions. They don't respond to them. And everything that has happened in the last couple of weeks has kind of been used in a way , to try to silence critics of the administration across across departments.
S1: Gustavo , did you have anything to add to that ? No.
S3: Similar to what Andrew said , right ? It's breaking news situation. We don't have all the facts , but but it is a pattern of the agency is using violence or perceived violence against their agents to justify lack of transparency , right. The stated reason for agents wearing masks is to protect their identity , right ? So I think this will , like Andrew said , just continue that cycle of more aggressive enforcement , less transparency. People don't like that. People really don't like ice. They're viewed as an occupying force in certain immigrant communities. So there's palpable anger at that. So that anger leads to fear from ice , which leads to less transparency , which leads to more anger. And it's just becoming a cycle. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. Well , you know , I do want to get into the series that you both worked on , Gustavo. Your reporting highlights this historic expansion of ice.
S3: Next year will be more. I mean , they , the Congress and Donald Trump signed off on this billions of dollars to fund this agency. When it's all said and done , it will be the largest federal law enforcement agency in the history of this country.
S1: And , you know , in each of your stories are some of the social media posts and videos being used to entice people to join Ice. And I want to break down one of those. It shows an image of what appears to be white settlers heading west.
S3: I think it's a good example of the overall rhetoric that Ice and DHS are using to recruit people. And as you mentioned , it's actually it's a real painting. It's called American Progress. It shows white settlers essentially marching west , being led by a personification of the US. It's meant to signify manifest destiny. And on the shadows retreating away from , um , from the settlers or Native Americans kind of going into the shadows. And it's significant for a couple of different reasons. One , obviously , the imagery is racialized and it glorifies a version of the past. right ? The caption also is interesting in that it can be interpreted through a white nationalist lens , through through pretty subtle word choices , right ? The words homeland and heritage in the caption are both capitalized. Now , I spoke to an expert , Peter Simi , at Chapman University , who studies extremist groups , and he says , look , this is coded language. White extremists look at messages with two capitalized H's. That's a reference to Heil Hitler. Another part of the caption , noteworthy part of the caption is that it contains exactly 14 words , and that number is also significant in white nationalist circles. So someone who isn't well-versed in that culture is just a an image and a caption that says , you know , defend the homeland. It can be easily dismissed as just rhetoric , right ? And people like , see me and reporters who call it out can just be shied away as , oh , you're being oversensitive. You're you're internalizing this , you're making this up and see me ? We have a clip from from my interview with him. He says this is kind of part of the message that plausible deniability.
S4: Propaganda is an art. We need to look at it as as such , it's a very powerful way of communicating it. When it's done most effectively. It makes it hard to call it out as well. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. Well , you know , these symbols and messages , common in white nationalist messaging can be difficult for people to understand or spot , as you mentioned. I imagine that makes really identifying things somewhat difficult in many cases.
S3: And that's something , uh , seeming I talked about. Right. Unless you find out the actual human being who posted that and wrote it and you asked them and they own up to it , they can always deny it and have plausible deniability. But what you cannot deny is that in these white supremacy circles , whether DHS intends it or not , they are interpreting it a certain way. Right ? And that's kind of the point. Another thing that CME recommended was to look at things in the larger picture. Right. Trees and forests. It's only one post , but it's one posed by an administration that has done certain policies by a president and the secretary who referred to people as illegals and aliens. It's just part of a larger , broader pattern. So it's not just one post , it's the entire communication strategy. Indeed.
S1: Indeed. Andrew , you each highlight other posts and ads here that tap into a strong connection to war. Tell us more about that.
S2: So after the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan , there was this whole idea about police departments bringing the war home , you know , buying surplus military gear , police dressing like soldiers. And that's what we're seeing now , Ice agents , you know , when they go out on these immigration raids , it looks like they're going on patrol in Baghdad in 2006 , but , you know , they're on the streets of American cities. It's kind of the culmination of the militarization of policing. And DHS Secretary Kristi Noem. She's leading into this. I think we have another clip.
S5: When I took the oath as the secretary of Homeland Security , I pledged that I would work to protect the American people from all enemies , foreign and domestic. And let me be clear. We have enemies living among us. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. Well , how do you see these militaristic images playing a role in border enforcement more broadly ? Gustavo.
S3: Well , I think , as Andrew mentioned , right. It's the militarization of the police , and we see it more in Ice and Border Patrol. They are much more militarized law enforcement agencies. Um , you see it by how they're dressed with the bulletproof vests. Some of them have rifles. They have camouflage pants. You see it in the tactics working at night coordinating , uh , you see it a little bit in the language and the rhetoric as well.
S1: And , you know , you report on two related federal agencies here in this series. Ice , Immigration and Customs Enforcement , along with DHS , which is the Department of Homeland Security. Could you explain a little bit about those agencies and their relationship , Andrew ? Sure.
S2: So they all fall under the Department of Homeland Security. So this is overall all DHS. But then DHS has different kind of branches working underneath them. You have Ice. That's the Immigration and Customs Enforcement. That's the branch that is offering these huge signing bonuses and really , really trying to ramp up its its staffing. These are the people that go and kick in doors and bust immigrants. You have CBP , which is Customs and Border Protection. These are the folks that man the ports of entry and do that kind of work. And then you have the Border Patrol , which we're all familiar with. They patrol the border.
S1:
S2: It's a really stressful time. A lot of people just are looking for a job , not necessarily a specific job. Sometimes you're in a bit of a panic. Um , and , uh , law enforcement is very , uh , a very easy transition to make. There's a lot of veterans serving in law enforcement. You go from one uniformed service to the other. You have , you know , a lot of commonality in the culture. So it's it's pretty normal and under normal times for , you know , service members to kind of be going over to , to law enforcement right now because of all of the jobs available in DHS and immigration enforcement. you just might see a little bit more folks , um , gravitating toward those jobs. Um. It's it's tough to talk about people's motivations of why they may or may not , you know , pursue a job like that. You know , certainly some people would never work , but then other people , you know , maybe they just need a paycheck. Maybe they have a mortgage and , you know , they'll take what they can get. People I talk to , um , none of the veterans I spoke with , only one person who has talked to me on the record. Um , and he was not , uh , not interested in a law enforcement job. He was more of a tech person. And the other the other people I talked to were just kind of feeling things out and seeing what's out there. So , um , not really strong one way or the other. Everybody is just kind of , uh , you know , trying to it's , you know , trying to navigate a pretty difficult time that , that transition.
S1: There's a lot of incentive also being thrown at these Ice recruitment fairs and so on.
S3: I mean , the big shift has been enforcement in the interior , right ? For the last five , ten years , the focus has been on the border , right. The think about the large caravans , the open air detention camps , um , the folks getting through the border during the Biden administration , all the focus was at the border , the big , beautiful wall. Just this year alone , we've seen a dramatic and massive shift to enforcement at the border , to enforcement in the interior of the country , and it changes the game dramatically. That's why Ice is the agency that's getting all the funding , not Border Patrol. That's why you see more images coming out of of of everywhere middle America , right ? It's not all concentrated at the border. It's in the Midwest. It's in the northeast. Uh , Georgia was where that Hyundai plant was , right ? LA has been where reinforcement has happened. But I think every corner of the country is seeing what immigration enforcement looks like in a way that they really haven't in the last few decades. It's much more public , much more aggressive , much more in your face. Hmm.
S1: Hmm.
S2: They've they've , you know , drawn Marines to the border. Um , and talking with Gustavo , the way this whole thing worked out , it was actually coming off an off air conversation you and I had were we wanted to kind of take these individual beats to tell a broader story. And that's the story of what a lot of people see as rising authoritarianism in the US. Right.
S1: Right. It's connecting the dots. Gustavo. Exactly.
S3: Exactly. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. All right. Well , I've been speaking with KPBS investigative border reporter Gustavo Solis , along with KPBS military and veterans affairs reporter Andrew Dyer. Gustavo , Gustavo , Andrew , thank you so much. It's always a pleasure.
S3: Thank you. Jade.
S2: Thank you.
S1: Still ahead , more immigrants are being placed in isolation cells while in Ice detention. More on that when KPBS Midday Edition returns. Welcome back to KPBS midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman. Over at San Diego's Otay Mesa detention facility , the number of people being held in isolation cells has spiked in recent months. That's according to new reporting out of a news source. And joining me to talk about her recent story is Sofia mejias Pasco. She's the investigative reporter and immigration reporter with eNews source Sophia. Welcome.
S6: Thanks for having me.
S1: Glad to have you here. You know , so Ice uses this term segregation. Um , is that the same thing as an isolation cell or solitary confinement , you know.
S6: Government documents describe segregation as isolated cells away from the general population , where detainees can be held for up to 24 hours a day. Um , human rights experts who study the use of segregation in Ice detention call this solitary confinement. Um , CoreCivic , the private detention company which oversees Ice detainees at Otay Mesa Detention Center and others as well. Really takes issue with the use of solitary confinement and says it doesn't happen at their facilities. Um , but the United Nations definition for solitary confinement is confinement of prisoners or detainees for 22 hours or more a day without meaningful human contact.
S1: Well , you found that over the last few months , more immigrants have been held in isolation cells at Otay Mesa. What are those numbers like ? Yeah.
S6: So the most recent month that we have data is August and August. We saw that 42 people spent at least one day in these isolation cells inside Otay Mesa. That's about eight times higher than a year ago. Um , but across the country , we know that the average number of days , um , at immigration detainees spend in segregation is 38 days. And Ice uses segregation for a number of purposes. It can be punitive as well as protective. So that means that they can also place someone in these isolation cells. Um , if they've been a victim of violence or if they have medical vulnerabilities or mental health issues.
S1: What does the research show about the health effects of spending time in solitary confinement ? Yeah.
S6: Research has found detrimental health effects that can be physical , mental and that can even last beyond the duration of the confinement. Solitary confinement can increase the risk of suicide. It can worsen existing mental health issues. And a recent report from the California Department of Justice seems to confirm some of this at. During a review of six detention centers in California , they found high rates of depression , anxiety , PTSD and increased likelihood of self-harm among people placed in segregation.
S1: So how does what we're seeing at Otay Mesa fit into what we're seeing at detention facilities across the country right now ? Yeah.
S6: Otay Mesa is on pace with other detention centers across the country. We're seeing more and more detention centers using segregation and also detention centers using a you're putting more and more people in segregation. So I think the one detention center from Pennsylvania put nearly 150 people into segregation last month at Otay Mesa. Numbers are are far below that , but we have seen Otay Mesa increasing every month for the past three months.
S1: You know , government watchdogs and independent researchers have criticized ISIS , ISIS use of , you know , isolation cells in the past. What are some of those reported issues ? Yeah.
S6: So , you know , this has been a problem in past administrations as well. Reports from government watchdogs and also independent researchers have found poor record keeping for people with mental health risks who are placed into segregation. And again , those people with mental health issues are at risk for increased problems once they get into segregation. Reports also found arbitrary placements and segregation for minor disciplinary issues using profanity in one case , and in other cases , Is years long. Confinements and segregation.
S1: So how do reported issues with overcrowding at Otay Mesa complicate this story further ? Yeah.
S6: Otay Mesa is one of many detention centers across the country that have been plagued by reports of overcrowding. Recently. People sleeping on the floor , deferred medical issues. Um , and , you know , we're wondering whether this is playing a role in the reliance on segregation. Uh , in the past , we've seen reports that Ice has put people in segregation as a result of overcrowding inside the facility. So we're wondering if that may be happening. But , um , CoreCivic also tells us that people can request to be placed into segregation if they want to be put there. Uh , and we don't have a lot of clarity about the the reasons right now that people are are being put into segregation at Otay Mesa.
S1: You touched on this earlier. And , you know , according to your reporting , the United Nations considers a certain amount of time spent in isolation cells to really be torture.
S6: Um , the United Nations standards for torture , for solitary confinement is 15 days. And so it would exceed the 15 days that the United Nations has defined. But again , we don't have a lot of clarity about the conditions that people have inside these segregation cells , what kind of access they're getting to outside resources to call loved ones or lawyers , um , to have recreation time. Um , really the the detrimental effect of , of segregation that researchers find is that lack of human contact. So , um , Weather. Yeah. The you know , how aligned those things are right now is is not totally clear.
S1: Your reporting includes an account by a German tourist who spent more than a week in solitary confinement at Otay Mesa back in February.
S6: She was denied entry into the US , eventually taken into Ice custody , and she said that she spent more than eight days in solitary confinement at the Otay Mesa Detention Center. Uh , she described it as a horror movie to a local TV station. Her friend told ABC that she went so insane that she started punching the walls and got blood all over her hands. And there were other news outlets across the country that have recently documented cases of immigrants being placed into solitary confinement. But again , Of course , Zivic has denied in that case of the German tourist and at broadly across any of its detention centres that it uses solitary confinement.
S1:
S6: She said that when she presented herself for inspection , the customs officer flagged an issue with her visa , the visa program that she was using. And then she was eventually taken into custody by Ice , and she had been there for over a month at the time that this news report of her time in solitary confinement had come out. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. You know , before we go , how has the Trump administration's attempt to shutter civil rights offices affected oversight for conditions inside these detention centers ? Yeah.
S6: Some of the offices that have been responsible for putting out reports on ISIS use of segregation , for providing oversight and for investigating complaints , have been targeted for closures by the Trump administration. This includes the office for Civil Rights and Civil Liberties. Um um Offices of Ombudsman for Immigration Detention. Um , so there are those there are lawsuits ongoing trying to challenge those closures by the Trump administration. But without those offices , there's certainly much less oversight over these facilities , ensuring that Ice follows its own policies for putting people into segregation.
S1: I've been speaking with Sofia mia mejias Pasco. She's the investigative reporter and investigative reporter and immigration reporter with a news source. Sofia. Thank you so much.
S6: Thanks for having me.
