There’s a push these days to inject political discourse with a heavy dose of civility. Best-selling author and social commentator Roxane Gay calls that a pipedream. She spoke recently to KPBS’s Amita Sharma about why civility is unattainable, and actually shouldn’t even be a goal, in today’s political environment.
Roxane, you write that civility, this idea that there is a perfect, polite way to communicate about sociopolitical differences, is a fantasy. Why is it a fantasy?
Roxane Gay: It's a fantasy because people are human, and when we are passionate about certain things, when we are committed to our beliefs, the idea that it's always going to be easy to talk about them and that it's always going to be a well-mannered exchange of ideas is really just that, a fantasy. It's this idea that we can disagree and there can be friction. But we don't have to get uncomfortable. And history has shown time and time again that there are certain sociopolitical disagreements that we simply cannot overcome with just debate. And it's really important to acknowledge that it's really counterproductive to insist on civility. And, you know, a lot of times when I talk about this, people tend to misinterpret and suggest that I'm advocating for violence. And instead, what I'm saying is that we don't get to put strictures on how these kinds of discourses take place, and we have to create space for uncomfortable conversations.
Well, I think the natural corollary to what you just said is that people probably say, `Well, look, if you don't have stability, then what are the prospects for bridging this divide between the people on the left, the right; between pro-democracy people, and those who want to dabble or fully embrace autocracy?’
Gay: I am not sure how we bridge those divides, because some of these divides are so fundamental when we're talking about issues of race and gender and the freedom to love who we want to love. How are we supposed to be civil when we're defending our lives and our very right to be and so I hope that there are ways that we can have productive conversations about this. But anytime you have to slice away parts of yourself and compromise on your identity in order to create some sort of bridge between political differences, then you're not actually having a productive conversation. You're not actually creating change. What you're doing is capitulating, and we should not have to capitulate who we are, just to satisfy people who are invested in bigotry.
You've already touched on this a little bit. There is talk of civil war in this country with a frequency and language I've never before heard in my lifetime. As you said, people think, `Well, if you don't have civility, then don't we run the risk of more political violence?’ Expand on that a little bit more.
Gay: Political violence has always been among us. Police shootings of unarmed civilians. That's political violence. So we can't pretend that it's a new phenomenon. But I do believe that we're seeing it with alarming frequency now. People are becoming a lot more comfortable making threats. I teach at Rutgers University, and a history professor there recently left the country with his family because a campus organization targeted his family and he was receiving death threats. And so, you know, those same people call for civility while running people out of town for having different political ideas. And so we do need to be vigilant, and we have to do everything humanly possible to avoid political violence on any side because there's no justification for it ever.
The Civil War was one of the worst conflicts in American history and while there's a lot of talk about it, I don't think we're anywhere near close to it. I think people lack the language and sometimes lack the critical capacity to talk about overwhelming discord, and they immediately go to war, which is something that, while painful to imagine, is tangible. We know what war is. We've seen it. And so I think that's why people reach for that. But I do not think we're there yet, and I hope I'm right.
What conditions and what skills are needed for there to be civility in sociopolitical discourse?
Gay: Well, I really believe that we have to abandon civility as a goal, and instead, what I want to see from political discourse is people being willing to listen as much as they speak. But I also want to make sure that we are able to engage in these kinds of conversations without having to compromise ourselves, without having to hide certain aspects of our identity, and without having to surrender to respectability politics. That feels so untenable and so unfair.
So how do we have these conversations without having to surrender ourselves and our very identities? I don't know. But that for me is the goal. And I don't even include civility because civility is suggesting let's have some rules. Again, like it's a debate. You speak for two minutes and then I speak for two minutes, and then you have a one-minute rebuttal, and that's just not how real life works. But I do believe that we can just have productive conversations, that we can be respectful and mindful that not everyone is on the same page and that we come from different places and we have different ideologies and not police ourselves. I think we can do that.
I want to pivot. You wrote The New York Times bestselling book "Bad Feminist." Define "Bad Feminist."
Gay: Well, when I first wrote the book and the title essay, I was thinking through my relationship with feminism, and I absolutely recognized that I was a feminist. But I knew that there were certain aspects of just my life that were not necessarily the most feminist. And so I was kind of tongue in cheek where I was like, `Well, I'm a feminist, but ha ha, I'm a bad feminist,’ which is to say that I'm human and sometimes flawed and inconsistent, but I'm still a feminist. I still believe in feminist ideology, and I want to do everything I can to create real change as a feminist.
So what aspects of yourself made you a bad feminist?
Gay: I was listening to a lot of hip hop. And when you really listen to the lyrics, you recognize that these lyrics are not feminist. And they don't have to be, honestly. But they are so antifeminist as to be detrimental. And yet, oh my gosh, the music is so good. Of course, in the 10 or 11 years since that book was published, I've recognized that yes, we can listen to the music we want, watch the films and television we want, and recognize that some of it is misogynist. But at some point, we have to hold ourselves accountable for the choices that we make and say, `You know what? I'm not actually going to listen to that music anymore because it is degrading and it could be any genre, by the way, but it doesn't serve any purpose to allow that kind of music in any space.’ We have to demand better and until we do, it's never going to change.
You have also recently published a collection of writings by historic and recent feminist voices. What inspired you to do that?
Gay: Penguin Classics approached me several years ago asking if I wanted to edit the next edition of their feminist reader and it was such an honor to be asked, and I really recognized the importance of the opportunity because all too often, only a certain kind of person gets to edit a collection like this. And so as a woman of color, as a queer woman, to be invited to enter that space and contribute to the feminist canon in that way was a real joy. It was an honor and a responsibility I took very seriously. And it was great to be able to include historic texts from centuries ago alongside contemporary texts, because it's a really exciting time in the feminist writing world.
Well, finally, I read that you're writing a romance novel with the actor Channing Tatum. How did that come about?
Gay: That came about through a series of just random events. On social media many years ago, back when I used to be on Twitter, I would talk about my crush on Channing Tatum, who I think is just a darling and so handsome. And he was on tour, I think, in Australia, and a journalist asked him if he knew how much I enjoyed his work, and he didn't. And she asked him if he had read "Bad Feminist," and he said, 'No, but I'll check it out'. And you know, we say those kinds of things all the time, but he actually did check it out. And then when he was approached about this project he invited me to work on it with him. And so now, you know, it's been in gestation for a very long time because our schedules are demanding, but I'm hoping that we are going to finish it this year so that people can enjoy reading it next year.
This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
