Next year marks 250 years since the Declaration of Independence proclaimed that all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights. To mark the fight for independence, Ken Burns has produced a 12-hour series on the American Revolution. It premieres Nov. 16 on PBS. KPBS’ Amita Sharma spoke with San Diego State University United States history professor Ed Blum and San Diego Mesa College political science professor Carl Luna to discuss that period and its relevance to today’s struggles to preserve American democracy.
Carl, Ken Burns says the American Revolution is the most important event since the birth of Christ. Do you agree?
Carl Luna: Well, it's definitely got to be up there. It's at least as significant as the Reformation with Martin Luther. The question will be, how does it play out? Somebody asked a leader of China, what do you think of the American Revolution 200 years ago? He said it's too soon to tell. So do we live up to the dream? If we do, then it is the most influential.
Ed, the American Revolution was the first ever fight proclaiming the inalienable rights of humans. How significant is that for the U.S. and for people all over the world?
Ed Blum: The political push for inalienable rights was really important not only for people within the new country, but across the globe. It was really the first proclamation from people who didn't have direct political power that everyday people had rights. And it translated genuinely to everyday people. There were enslaved African-Americans who took it to heart, one who is Phillis Wheatley, who wrote a poem where she claimed, liberty makes the weak strong, and that it led them to speak out for their own rights.
Carl, along those lines, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, both are obviously legendary. But just as they advocated for personal universal rights, they owned human beings. They were slaveholders. In fact, Black people fought in the Revolution on the side of the British and against the British. Describe how complicated that history is.
Luna: People are a funny thing. There are contradictions that we all have within us. You have to remember at the time, just to be advocating for rights for average people, white people, was radical. The idea that you are advocating for the slaves, was going to take a civil war to finally resolve. Thomas Jefferson felt very conflicted about his slaves, but they were money. Too often in life, when your pocketbook is against your principles, your pocketbook is going to win out. So you’ve got to look at the good they did, and they set up a system by which we could then address what they left unfinished.
Ed, John Adams' wife, Abigail Adams, said, “If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies, we are determined to foment a rebellion and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation.” How seriously were Abigail Adams' words taken by the men of that time?
Blum: Abigail Adams wrote that, in fact, before the Declaration of Independence was even signed. And it's interesting because John Adams responded to her letter almost mockingly. He called her saucy, and he said it was almost too much to hear that the petticoats, women in dresses, would even challenge. But then he said that if women were to rise up, he would hope that General Washington would bring his men to put them down. Interestingly enough, one of Adams' comrades, Richard Henry Lee, responded to his sister that he thought widows who paid taxes should be able to vote and should have representation. So even before the Declaration of Independence was signed, Americans were already battling over what it would mean to have a new government system.
Carl, George Washington famously turned down an offer to be king of the country. This month, there was a second nationwide No Kings protest that included tens of thousands of people locally. What would the founding fathers say about the country's current political situation?
Luna: The important thing with Washington is he turned down the crown three times. He had plenty of opportunities to become our Napoleon. I think the framers, if you can do that juxtaposition with today, would look at things and say people have to protest. Government has to govern. But at a certain point, when the government is not responsive to the people, it is their right, it is their duty to change it.
What are San Diegans telling you about their worries about democracy right now?
Luna: A lot of people are concerned, not just with policy. Policy we can work through. There seems to be an effort now to reach policy goals without going through all the niceties and the problems of democracy. And that's worrisome because even if your side wins this debate by doing it today, somebody can come and do it to you tomorrow. At some point, it would be good if all San Diegans realized we've got a common dog in this fight, and that's the democracy that protects all of us.
Ed, you're a student of U.S. history, particularly the American Revolution. Could you have ever predicted that American democracy would get to this point?
Blum: Well, sure, because there have been many times throughout American history when Americans' political leaders have overreached, whether it was Franklin Roosevelt trying to essentially pack the Supreme Court, or everyday Americans pushing back against the government. It was the conservatives who made themselves into a "Tea Party" to oppose liberal politics. So while it seems today like we're in unprecedented territory, we're really not. We've been here before as a country.
Luna: I would say, though, that it is a little bit more unprecedented today, because of the disregard for the rule of law you're starting to see at the highest levels of government without the checks and balances working. That's a little bit different from what we've seen in the past. Though I do agree, in the 1930s, Roosevelt may have overreached on the courts, but we had an active movement to establish fascism in America, and there was almost an attempt at a military coup, which Roosevelt was able to defuse. So we've been in bad situations before. The question is, do we get worse today?
Ed, how notable is it that this is happening just as we're kicking off a 250-year anniversary celebration?
Blum: People look to historical precedent all the time. The American revolutionaries looked to the glorious revolution 150 years before them. And so being in a time when people 250 years ago politically rose up to challenge the politicians who were in power, it makes sense that people are going to draw from those historical precedents. And it will give them power, it will give them courage. And ultimately, it gives them a historical precedent to use as fundamentally American, not as un-American.
Carl, one of the points made in the documentary is how much of role model the American Revolution was for people all over the world. How big of a role model do you think that era is for Americans today?
Luna: Well, that's one of the battles in our culture wars — who owns the revolution? Is it those who say we're doing what the founders did, and then there's a tendency to try to push them in the direction of white Christian nationalism, or those who are saying that we're doing what the founders did and they're trying to push it toward a progressive agenda. At the root, what they were talking about was replacing a bad system of government with a good system of government that gave everybody a seat at the table. That's what everybody needs to focus on today if you want to live up to the tradition of the Revolution.
Does American democracy survive this latest threat?
Luna: Sixty-forty, 70/30. If you look at history, though, history is littered with democracies which over time grow too used to themselves and allow too much opposition, and they fail.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
