S1: Welcome in San Diego , it's Jade Hindman. On today's show , the legal debate over El Cajon PD's sharing of surveillance data. Investigative border reporter Gustavo Solis joins me to break it down. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. California's sanctuary law prohibits police departments from sharing license plate reader data unless it's with another public agency. But how you define public agency is up for debate in El Cajon. While the El Cajon Police Department continues to share data with outside agencies. California's attorney general says agencies that share license plate reader data with out of state and federal law enforcement agencies may be violating the law. Here to break it down for us is KPBS Investigative border reporter Gustavo Solis. Gustavo , welcome.
S2: Hello , Jade. And hello , midday listeners. Yes.
S1: Yes. It's always good to have you on , Gustavo , because you always have a good breakdown of things. Um , so. So first , in order to understand what's happening now , we got to understand Senate Bill 34.
S2: First Trump administration. And it it's not technically one of the sanctuary bills. It aimed to control and regulate this new technology. Automated license plate readers. It tells agencies , uh , how long they can store the data for who they can share it for , what kind of reasons they can use this data for. And it was really just a regulating new technology.
S1: Well , okay. So remind us what automated license plate reader or Alper surveillance is and how it works.
S2: So there's two aspects of it. One cameras. There are three cameras that capture every single vehicle that drives by them. Right ? So if there's a camera on a street corner , every time a car drives , it takes a picture. It records , obviously the license , the make , model , color , direction in the time of day. And it takes all of that data from all those cameras and stores them in databases. It allows police officers. So for example , in Chula Vista , they have 150 cameras constantly taking pictures of every single vehicle that drives by them. So if you think about it , they collect these massive amounts of data and police officers can use that data to say , look , my my black Toyota Corolla I've stolen. They look it up and see if they get picked up by any of those cameras. That's essentially kind of how they work , but they collect millions and millions of data points throughout the course of months. Wow.
S1: Wow. Really watching everybody.
S2: Yeah , I mean , they have some in front of malls , every person going in and out , you're getting surveilled every time you're coming in and out. And they are. So the stated reason , right is for public safety. Stolen cars , missing people. Um , Amber alert type things. Which I think most of us would agree that's a good thing. But then this overreach of surveillance. Why are we. You know , this is the land of the free , home of the brave. Why am I getting surveilled when I'm just going around my daily life ? That's kind of the conversation around Alper technology. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Okay. Well , at the center of this debate in El Cajon is the definition of the term public agency. Is that right ? Mhm. Okay. So so give us the breakdown there. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. So we talked a little bit about SB 34 right. It limits who you can share Alper data with as public agencies. Now in October of 2023 the Attorney general Rob Bonta put out a legal bulletin , a guidance on what this law means. And in that guidance , he specifically , um , identified public agencies to mean public agencies within the state of California. That means public , you know , law enforcement , police departments , sheriffs offices and explicitly said , you can only share this Alper data with public agencies within California. You specifically cannot share it with out of state police departments and federal law enforcement agencies. Uh , most people have kind of agreed to that definition , but some folks are pushing back. The El Cajon Police Department believes that public agencies applies to police departments inside California and outside of California , but they agree that it doesn't mean federal law enforcement , so that there is a open debate of kind of what it means , how it's interpreted. And I think what's adding to the confusion now is that in El Cajon , as we'll talk about , they are sharing with out-of-state agencies , and there have been very transparent about it. They had a great conversation with me about it. They've talked to the Attorney General's office about it. And from their point of view , you know , we're doing what we're doing. We're not hiding it. And the attorney general hasn't stopped us. So , you know , we don't think we're breaking the law. We're not intending to break the law. Wow.
S1: Wow. Well , you did speak with the El Cajon Police Department. You spoke with Chief Jeremiah Larsen. Here's some of what he told you.
S3: Some criminals don't operate within boundaries. If by sharing our information with any other jurisdictions , it helps solve crimes , you know , then we want to make sure that officers and investigators and all jurisdictions have access to all legal and available tools.
S1:
S2: These are folks that were robbing retail stores in Texas , Arizona , Orange County , LA , throughout San Diego and in El Cajon. So he was looking into and sharing data with law enforcement agencies like the I don't know. Phoenix Police Department , for example. I don't know if that was the specific one , but , you know , like Dallas police , basically local law enforcement agencies in Texas and Dallas , they were sharing with. And his argument is that through this type of sharing on this specific crime , they were able to to bring the criminals to justice. Hmm.
S1: Hmm.
S2: Right. He specifically no immigration , no federal immigration crimes. Right. He was saying people , like I've mentioned before , suspected of stealing cars , abduction , uh , violent theft. He said they were able to use some cameras to identify the suspect in a double homicide last Halloween. That type of crime. And El Cajon , as all police departments in the state do because of a separate law , they explicitly prohibit anyone from using their their ALP systems firm , doing what they call immigration related searches.
S1: Um hum. And so then back to this debate around SB 34.
S2: We know some of what it looks like. We know that in August of of two years ago they did. I'm sorry. August of last year , the attorney general's office sent El Cajon Police Department a letter saying , hey , we want to talk with you. We want to make sure you're in compliance and see whether or not you're sharing with out-of-state agencies. That's the only part of the conversation that's been made public , that letter. I should note that the and I reported it earlier this year. San Diego Police Department was sharing ALP data without a state agencies and with Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The attorney general sent him almost the same identical letter , and they now stopped sharing with anyone out of state and anyone in the federal level. Um , what Chief Larson told me. And to his credit , he's been very transparent about this. He granted me an interview and has been very open to talk about this , and he said he's had multiple conversations with officials at the AG's office over the phone. He said they've been very cordial. He says he's made his position clear and there hasn't been follow up enforcement. I reached out to the AG's office. They gave me a statement that didn't really say much. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. So. And also there's this controversy over the company that actually provides the license plate readers flock safety.
S2: Right. Especially now in the context of the Trump administration and aggressive immigration enforcement , uh , you know , quotas of trying to arrest 3000 people every day. We know through records requests in other states , for example , in Texas , uh , local sheriffs departments there are sharing their data with Ice. Um , and you can see it on their searches. Ice is searching a white Toyota truck for immigration. Right ? Uh , we've also seen that the federal government has been deputising local police departments to enforce federal immigration law. That can't happen in California. It's illegal. But in a state like Florida , nearly every county in the state of Florida is under this agreement. It's called a 287 G agreement , where they receive some trainings and they're deputized to enforce federal immigration law. So then you're seeing those agencies that have been deputized using flock to search cameras in Texas , Arizona , Mississippi for immigration related offenses on behalf of the federal government. And that's where a lot of the controversy is coming from. I mean , I've seen videos. The Washington Examiner actually did a ride along with folks in Florida where a local police will pull somebody over for a traffic violation , tinted windows As for their ID ? Their ID is out of state or looks fake , and then ice will be right there behind them , ready to enforce immigration laws. That's the kind of thing , you know , it can't happen in California. It cannot happen in California because of the sanctuary laws. But that's how we're seeing it play out in other states.
S1: All right. But then to what extent does the San Diego County Sheriff's Office help with immigration.
S2: Through Alps or just.
S1: In just in general.
S2: I would say the San Diego County Sheriff's Office , through their capacity as being jailers , that's that's where the transfers happen. So sometimes there are carve outs in state sanctuary laws here in California that if you are convicted of certain crimes and you are in state prison , they can transfer you to Ice if I request it. And then obviously , if somebody is in incarcerated in the in the state prison system or even just in a local jail , Ice can produce a federal warrant. And when Ice produces a federal warrant , there's nothing local authorities can do to to circumvent that. The laws , the California , the state sanctuary laws. They shield this practice of ice would just ask people ask jails for for a lot of people without producing a warrant , without producing evidence , without really checking into the background of that person. So the state laws limit that kind of mass transfer of people. But there are still it does happen in limited cases when people , like I said , are convicted of certain crimes. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Okay. Well , before we have to wrap up here , I do want to talk a bit about immigration enforcement in El Cajon in general , because there's a bit of a discord here between its city council and residents over immigration. So tell me a bit about that before we go.
S2: Yeah , it's an interesting situation. El Cajon is a city where almost a third of the residents are foreign born , but their mayor , Bill Wells , is a an eager Trump supporter. Right. A big fan of the of the president's immigration policies has gone out of his way to meet with border czar Tom Homan and introduced , along with a couple of other council members , this resolution in February. Well , he introduced it in January. It was controversial. They had to have three meetings for it to pass , but it finally passed in February. The resolution doesn't change the day to day operation of what's happening in El Cajon. So if you're listening and you live in El Cajon , know that the resolution didn't change what the police department does. The resolution said that it the language is it declares the city's intent to comply with federal immigration law. It is generally a statement of support for what the president is doing. It's a veiled criticism of state sanctuary laws , but it still says that the local police department has to follow state law. So in El Cajon , even though this past the Oklahoma Police Department cannot stop you for immigration , they don't want to they can't ask you for your immigration status. They can't hand you over to Ice. Uh , willy nilly. Um , but even though it didn't change anything materially on the ground , it did create this atmosphere in El Cajon where , well , our government is supporting what the president is doing. Um , I don't feel safe. I mean , the police department acknowledged the trust between police and community has been severed because of these types of resolutions. So , yeah , it has created a lot of tension in that city. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Still so much to dig into with this , but we'll have to leave it there for today. And of course , we'll continue to follow your reporting. I've been speaking with Gustavo Solis , KPBS investigative border reporter. Gustavo , as always , thank you. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it.
S1: That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
