S1: Welcome in San Diego , it's Jade Hindman. On today's show , a discussion on how schools are working to stop anti-Semitism and to what extent the government should be involved after new legislation is signed by Governor Newsom. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. Reports of anti-Jewish bias statewide have doubled between 2021 and 2024. That's according to the California Department of Justice. So how should educators tackle anti-Semitism in California schools , and to what extent should the government be involved ? Those are some of the questions front and center , in the debate over a new bill recently signed by California Governor Gavin Newsom. I'm joined now by two Cal Matters reporters who have been following this. Us. Stella , you. Yu. She covers politics and Michael Eisenstein. He covers education and federal issues affecting California. Welcome to you both. Hi.
S2: Hi. Glad to be on the show.
S3: Thanks for having us. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Glad to have you both here. Um , Stella , take me back to the original creation of this bill. AB 715. There was the July version , which never made it to a hearing. And now we have this latest version that was signed into law. So briefly , tell me about that original July version.
S2: So the authors have said since the bill's creation that this is really to protect Jewish students. Um , you know , they say anti-Semitic sentiments have been on the rise in California schools , especially after AB October 7th , 2023 , when Hamas attacked Israel. Um , so they have cited anecdotes of swastikas popping up on school walls or students being held , being told that they need to be held accountable for what Israel has done. So , you know , authors say that this bill is one of protection , right , of Jewish kids from what they perceive as anti-Semitic instructions , materials. And so this bill has gone through a lot of iterations , um , you know , and for months right over this , this super controversial political tussling. And , um , it wasn't until May that we got a sense of what this bill was going to tackle , but at the time , it had what we call intense language , which is basically the legislature's way of saying , hey , this is a rough sketch of what the bill wants to do , but more details to come. And so in July , you know , there was a public published version of the bill that included a lot of specific ideas and terms that would create and quote unquote , anti-Semitic learning environment and just to name a few that included , you know , instructions that would , uh , you know , include any denigration of Zionist views , or any materials that labeled Israel as a settler colonial state. And that version has , uh , you know , sparked a lot of controversy , which we will for sure. Get into later. Um , and that Bill never received a hearing. Um , it was only in the September version that was heard publicly for the first time in the in the last week of the legislative session , that the public got to see the final version that ended up becoming law. Um , it it no longer includes any of those concepts that were included in the July bill. It just broadly tells schools to comply with the state's anti-discrimination laws. You know , most of which already exist in schools anyways. Um , it also sets up this anti-Semitism prevention coordinator who's going to be appointed by the governor , confirmed by the state Senate. Um , and this role , this role will offer , you know , anti-Semitism trainings and advice to the schools. And it also requires teachers to only teach. Quote unquote , factually accurate stuff. And so that parts which I believe will always also get into later , that has been a controversial part of the of the final law , which even authors agreed is problematic , and they agreed to a fix next year.
S1:
S4: Um , so it removes the , the prescriptive language that existed in the previous version concerning what is a , an unsafe environment for Jewish students. And it instead creates these concepts of um , instruction that's based on factual accuracy. And , um , and that moves away from , you know , opinion and advocacy. And it's those points that have critics of the bill now law. Um , upset. Uh , so and they're upset for all sorts of reasons. And I think this is going to be a through line through this interview. But the teachers union , the largest teachers union in California , California Teachers Association , they take issue with that language that I just said. The thing about accuracy and free of bias and and facts , because there are many disciplines that are contentious. You can think , for example , of how many , um , genders there are , you know , can a teacher teach about transgender issues and feel comfortable talking about , um , that transgender folks exist. That was an example given to me by the the head of the California Teachers Association , who himself is Jewish , and his sister is a rabbi. Uh , so he opposes this , this bill. Um , because of what this may do to chill the instruction or debate of contentious issues , you can also think of controversial , um , recently controversial issues like vaccine efficacy or vaccine hesitancy. Um , and the CTA , the California Teachers Association mentioned , um , really that there could be a chill on anything that just doesn't have consensus or , um , may create inroads for folks who want to , um , question something that has consensus. Mm. Um.
S1: Well , yeah. I mean , how are other state legislatures , um , addressing anti-Semitism in schools ? I mean , how does California compare ? Sure.
S2: So obviously there's the national context , uh , especially since 2023. I mean , President Donald Trump has been cracking down on pro-Palestinian protests and activists across college campuses. So there's that broader national context. Um , and this year , you know , there has been at least half a dozen other state legislatures that we've counted. And , you know , most if not all of those are Republican led states like Tennessee , Kansas , Missouri , just to name a few. These states have introduced and pushed through some of the bills to fight anti-Semitism in school settings this year. Um , and so some of them have adopted this highly controversial definition of anti-Semitism that was drafted more than 20 years ago , but has since been applied in some school settings , and it has gotten so controversial , so much so that the author of that definition has come out and warned of misuse of this definition in speech codes in school settings , and I'm sure we'll get into that later. But yeah , so , like some state legislatures have adopted this highly controversial definition of anti-Semitism in their bills. But that definition , I must say , is like it is not in the California law. Um , so , yeah , so that's that's kind of how , you know , it compares with the other states.
S1:
S4: And it's tough because there's no agreed upon definition of anti-Semitism. And I think because there's no agreed upon definition , um , laws like these or efforts to mitigate anti-Semitism will always be contentious. And it comes down to this. Um , and , you know , if we had ten hours , we wouldn't even cover , um , most of it. But it comes down to whether criticism of the existence of Israel and whether the creation of it , um , criticizing its creation is itself anti-Semitic. You have many mainstream Jewish groups who say , yes , that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic. Um , now you have a legion of scholars , um , professors who say that anti-Zionism Zionism on its own is not necessarily anti-Semitic. That if you limit criticism to the creation of Israel as as an exploration of ethno nationalism , of nationalism movements in general. Um , you know , if you if you treat it as a , as something academic rather than something , something inherent and unique to , to Jews , for example , um , then that's fair game. And then there's also the case that you have , you know , families who are affected by the conflict going on in that part of the world. Um , since , you know , realistically , since 1920 , I think , I think a lot of scholars can agree that this conflict kind of started in 1920 , um , after World War one. So , um , you know , if you are a family , uh , whose home was , um , taken away , uh , uh , at the creation of Israel upon the creation of Israel or , you know , you experienced death or violence. Um , it's fair game to be critical of , of a country. Um , so but as you can see , it's difficult. It is difficult to draw a line if you are , um , I guess , a legislator. And if you are a teacher because you are trying to respond to , um , competing definitions of anti-Semitism.
S1: Well , you know , and that brings me to my next question. Because , Stella , in your piece , um , it's acknowledged , you know , that there's this tidal shift within the Democratic base over support for Israel's military campaign , for example. Tell me about the political calculus there for Democratic lawmakers. Absolutely.
S2: Absolutely. Yeah. So , you know , again , kind of starting from the broader context , really. In the past two years , we've seen polling nationwide that suggests the general American public support for Israel's military actions has been slipping. Um , and so that is regardless of party. Obviously , there are some differences , right ? You know , between the Democratic Party and the Republican parties. Um , but in , you know , within the Democratic Party nationwide as well as in California , we've seen this growing vocal faction of the base that tends to be younger , more progressive , and they're growing vocal about , uh , criticizing , you know , Israel , uh , over its military campaign in Gaza. And , and that has cost Democrats , uh , you know , nationwide , as we saw in the last presidential election , for example. I mean , a lot of the voters said that they sat out the election because they were dissatisfied with how the Biden administration Region handled the Gaza conflict. Um , and so so that is something that the Democrats have had to reckon with nationwide. And we saw that in California as well last year with , you know , with the US Senate race , when Barbara Lee at the time was the only one to vocally call for a cease fire. Um , and we saw protests broke out. You know , at the California Democratic Convention that year. So , um , so , so so there's that. But also , you know , California Democrats have also had to , um , grapple with their traditional support in general , um , of Israel. And they also have this decent number of Jewish constituents and donors who are supportive of Israel. And so this is something that the Democrats have already had to balance. Um , you know , especially after October 7th , 2023. And in this case , with this bill , there's one more layer , because the debate wasn't exactly just about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Float. It was also one about , you know , and I think Michael alluded to this as well. It was also about how far the government can go right to , to regulate what's taught and said in classrooms. And so to that extent , the Democrats also have to navigate this. Um , you know , on the one hand , you could risk upsetting education groups who say , hey , you're going too far. You could risk infringing upon academic freedom. Um , and , you know , you could also be labeled by pro-Palestinian advocates as attempting to silence discord over Israel. But on the other hand , you know , for the Democrats , I mean , speaking up against this bill or even remotely expressing your concerns about this bill could get you labeled as being anti-Semitic , or at least , you know , unwilling to combat anti-Semitism. Why ? Because the authors have said repeatedly that this is a bill to protect Jewish students. Right. So , so , so speaking up against that or being concerned about that. That could also open a Democrat up to primary challenges and attack ads next year. So so it is definitely a political quagmire for California lawmakers.
S1:
S4: Um , in the end , you had major firepower in the California legislature backing this bill. Um , not just the Jewish Caucus , but also the chairs of the , um , Black Legislative Caucus , uh , the Asian American and Pacific Islander Caucus and the , um , Latino Caucus. Um , so it was this it it was a a coalition of demographic groups. Um , or at least their leaders in the legislature who ultimately backed this. And I think , um , you know , one tiny thing to add is that there was a companion bill to this that also passed Senate Bill 48 that created , um , uh , coordinators in the style of the , um , uh , anti-Semitism. The anti-Semitism coordinator that Estella talked about in AB 705 , um , Senate Bill 48 will create similar coordinators , um , dealing with issues of anti-religious bias and anti , um bias based on skin color demographics and another on LGBTQ issues. Um , and so we're seeing , uh , multiple coordinators emerge from these two bills.
S1: Um , this is a complicated , uh , subject to cover.
S5: Um , I think both Michael.
S2: And I , unfortunately have gotten a lot of personal attacks , which isn't really something that we wanted to see. Um , but but , you know , I mean , this this has been a touchy subject throughout the legislative session , right ? Like to put it into context. I mean , I've covered the entire legislative session , and I think this was , you know , one of the biggest , most emotionally taxing fights that ever occurred. I mean , even some of the authors , you know , and supporters have said that this is the hardest fight in their career. So knowing this , I mean , we chose to tackle it anyways because we thought it was really important to , um , just lay out the political calculus behind this , but also the , the , the cultural nuance and the historical , you know , significance of the debate that's around that. So so that is something that we truly hope shines through in our reporting. You know , we tried our best to be balanced and , um , to be nuanced and to be sensitive , to take care of this piece. So it was a really tough story for the both of us to , to. Right. Um , and , and it's it's kind of interesting to see that we've gotten accusations , uh , from , from both sides of the debate. You know , I've been accused of being anti-Semitic , whereas Michael has been accused of , you know , like being a being a Zionist , right ? Like being on the contrary of so but our goal was never to pick a side. And we will continue to cover this topic because it is also important , I think , for for our readers to know now that this is law. How exactly it is going to play out in schools and in real life.
S1:
S4: I think. I think right now there's this like kind of instinctual response to this issue and not as much , um , deep thinking on what is happening and what we're actually reacting to. Um , and , uh , you know , when you have someone like Kenneth Stern , who is the author of the most prominent and controversial definition of anti-Semitism , the one that all but says anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. When you have someone like that saying that a bill like AB 715 is the wrong move because it it is a kind of proxy for speech codes. It is a it , it somehow dictates or may dictate or give the impression Expression of of of of choosing a definition over another. He says that's not that's not the best approach. Um , he and again , he's the person who said that anti-Zionism is is anti-Semitism , basically. I mean , you can read his language , it's slightly more finessed. But , you know , I'll just refer to something that he , he , he intimated to us and he has written elsewhere , he said that there shouldn't be special rules for Jewish students or any student group to deal with anti-Semitism on the campus. The focus should be on what the campus must be a place where bullying , threats and intimidation are firmly opposed. But speech is protected. If the campus worked as it should , Jewish students would be fine. I have to say , though , that when I spoke to backers of this bill and opponents of this bill , they kept making that point too , right ? So they're there. Their goals are the same. But the backers say this is the antidote , and the dissenters say this is not the antidote.
S1: Well , we're. Gonna.
S6: Gonna. That's tough.
S1: Yeah , we'll have to leave it there. But this is some reporting we'll continue to follow. I've been speaking with a us , Stella , you and also Michael Eisenstein. You can check out their full story at Cal Matters. Thank you both so much for your reporting in this conversation.
S5: Thanks so much.
S1: That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
