S1: Hey there , San Diego , it's time for KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. San Diego City Council voted to raise water rates this week , but held off on some cost increases down the line.
S2:
S1: We take a look at what the council passed and why. It seems no one's very happy with the outcome. Then , in our San Diego Storytellers series , a conversation with local horror writers about their work and why so many of us love to be scared. That's ahead on KPBS roundtable. Despite ongoing concerns over the city's high cost of living. San Diego City Council voted this week to increase water and sewer rates by about 30% over the next two years. They held off on further cost increases down the line , at least for now. Today , we want to talk more about the dollars and cents behind San Diego's water challenges and the future of our water supply. Here to help me do that is Mackenzie Elmer. She's the environment and energy reporter with Voice of San Diego. And also David Garrick is here. He's a reporter that covers the city for the San Diego Union-Tribune. Welcome back to the roundtable , both of you. Thanks. So great to have you here , David. Tell us what the City council decided when it comes to water rates on Tuesday.
S3: Well , they voted to increase water rates 31% and sewer rates 31%. But the the water could have been up to 62%. They kind of shaved off the third and fourth year sort of buying time , hoping for a miracle. You know , it was a 5 to 4 vote. It was very controversial. They actually decided a month ago to delay it. They were supposed to approve it a month ago and delayed it by a month , hoping for another miracle that never came.
S1: And was there any action in that kind of month time frame , or was what they ended up voting on ? Pretty much the same ? David.
S3: It was pretty much the same. I mean , other than shaving off those two years , it was pretty much the same thing they they questioned. They have a budget official at City Hall called the independent budget Analyst and they questioned aggressively , is there any way is there any way and the budget analyst and two consultants and the city staff basically just said , we have to do this , or we're going to have to lay off like 500 people or we're going to have to default on our bonds. We just we have to have this money. Right now , we're in a position. This is really our only option.
S1: And Mackenzie , I mean , you know , seeing what they voted on , as David mentioned , was a 5 to 4 vote. It was it was quite close.
S4: It sounded like whether Mayor Gloria had the votes to pass the water rate increase. Um , you know , politically speaking , I think what we're talking about was , you know , a politics battle for the last month. Um , the city council has been pretty tired of having to pass a lot of rate increases on things like on fee increases like parking and everything , because the city is in such a budget deficit.
S1: And getting them , like , implemented kind of ASAP , too. Right. Just to get that money going.
S4: Yeah , totally. So this water rate increase was kind of like this fever pitch of like , we're tired of passing all of these costs increase on to citizens , and the city council has to sort of take all of that , those political hits. And so that's where we sell a month ago. You know , Council member Kent Lee threw down and said , I'm not voting for this. The mayor has lost my trust. Steven Whitburn came out and kind of a little bit surprised that he was. So he was like , this is dead on arrival. We're not voting for this increase. And it was a it was an 8 to 1. Let us right on that. Right David.
S3: But I think it's politics on both sides. I mean , the people who voted against it want to be able to tell their constituents I voted against this. But I mean , if you're if they're looking at things responsibly , if they had voted against this , I mean , unless all these folks are crazy , this would have had huge negative ramifications for the city. This is not the one to pick to vote against. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And you kind of mentioned that some of the potential , the layoffs that you talked about , I want to , you know , play a little clip from San Diego City Council member Steven Whitburn , as you mentioned , Mackenzie. He ended up voting for this. He was one of the five that voted for this. Here's a little what he had to say during the kind of discussion of the debate on the on the matter on Tuesday.
S5: So what I'm hearing is that the choice before us is stark. We either approve a two year rate adjustment of 14.7 and 14.5% , or the city will have to lay off significant staff , risk , defaulting on its debt risk , regulatory noncompliance , and a host of other consequences that you outlined. Is that our choice ? Correct.
S4:
S1: And that was Lisa Zelaya there from the Public Utilities Commission.
S4: It's because like , if the if the public utilities department kind of loses all of this funding , if they had voted no , it would sort of pull the whole city into even further debt because the utilities department sort of like touches all these other departments within the city. It's kind of complex to explain.
S1:
S3: And if your credit rating is gone for that , I mean , your other credit ratings are going to be impacted. It's all one city. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. So it'd be hard it'd be more expensive for the city to borrow money to pay for things in the future if they decided to. Just like , let public utilities department take a huge hit with these water rate cuts.
S1: McKenzie you kind of joked about , you know , the the , you know , the political battle here being sort of like a Mexican standoff of sorts. A lot of the blames going to the San Diego County Water Authority. Can you just remind us , you know , the role of the Water authority and how that kind of plays into where we are with or , you know , how much we pay for water in the city of San Diego. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. The water authority is kind of like a middleman in a sense , but they are the ones that buy the region's water for all of San Diego County. They buy water from the Colorado River , from Metropolitan Water District of Southern California , which is based in LA. Um , they buy they they buy very expensive water from a desalination plant. And they just sort of like , buy this water and ship it out to the different , smaller water districts. It's it's sort of ironic because the city of San Diego is the has the most power on the water authority's governing board and in a sense , like what the city of San Diego is dealing with right now with all of this expensive water driving up these costs. The city played a role in the huge role in in securing all of this water for the region that they're now having to sort of pay for. So it's they the Water Authority and the city have been pointing fingers at each other when they're sort of kind of the same animal in a sense.
S3: And I think you have the big picture. The big picture is people made mistakes , but they weren't really mistakes at the time. We can Monday morning quarterback and say these were mistakes. It's a drought area. It's desert. They said we need to do these things to secure our water future. They seem smart. At the time , they didn't anticipate the kind of conservation we've had. Right. And so people are not using water at the same rate. They thought the population would grow more. The officials that made these decisions. So now we have a glut. They have a huge infrastructure that they don't need. They have water deals that they don't that don't make sense anymore. And somebody's got to pay. And we're all in this together. And unfortunately all the agencies suffer from that.
S4: So the Water authority is credit and they're messaging I mean if you. San Diego is in a very unique position compared to most of the South. The West really. Um , you know , San Diego has more water than it needs. And really , no one else can say that in the last drought , parts of Los Angeles were cut off. You know , they had water cuts and San Diego survived that. So now they're trying to sort of say , okay , we we admit that we have too much water , but it's now a , it's a commodity. And so the larger picture of this whole problem is San Diego could be positioning itself to be kind of a water seller across the West. And these larger kind of like dealmaking that's happening in on the Colorado River.
S3: And we've heard that that they're going to sell to Arizona , New Mexico numerous times and they're close to a deal. But we haven't seen the actual deals. Right.
S4: Right. If we want to get into the nitty gritty of that , we can.
S1: You mentioned desalination , and that's something I kind of commonly hear. I think a lot of folks , when it comes to water , it's like , why isn't that a bigger part of our water ? You know , push for water independence.
S4: Huntington Beach tried to build a Poseidon , the same company that owns the one that we use in Carlsbad. Yeah , they tried to build another one in Huntington Beach and they basically got , you know , run out of town. And it's just because environmentalists often don't like these sorts of plants because they have to suck up ocean water. Threats.
S1: Threats.
S4: Threat to marine life , all this sorts of it's very energy intensive as well , which is like the bulk of the cost of desal water. And so it's really tied to like as electricity prices and energy prices go up , desal just keeps going up.
S3: And you could argue in retrospect , maybe the plant in Carlsbad was a mistake. I mean , you could see it either way , but I mean , it's pretty expensive and we don't have the needs we we thought we had when the plans for that plant went in place. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. I mean , I haven't heard anyone admit that it's been a mistake. I think that the Water Authority is trying to say that , you know , it's part of this whole commodity thing. Like a lot of their argument arguments are now that , you know , we decided to cut deals with farmers and Imperial Valley for Colorado River water. We decided to build a desal plant. And , um , we secured a bunch of water for the region at a time when , you know , those prices that we locked in are no longer the truth now. So like , for instance , if we talk about even Pure Water San Diego , which I know we haven't even touched on , but like if you want to build like a desal plant or if you want to try to recycle water , now the price is just going to be ever more elevated. So San Diego is kind of like trying to say , see , we actually did things maybe at the right time because no one else will be able to build and secure water as cheap as we have.
S1: Well , let's talk about pure water , David. I mean , I think both of you probably been covering it for years now. Um , it's I think it was , you know , called the largest infrastructure project in city history. It's a multi-year , multi-billion dollar , you know , effort at kind of reimagining water for San Diego.
S3: It's making San Diego water independent , and at the same time , it's saving the city three , four , $5 billion it would take to upgrade the Point Loma sewer treatment plant because that's old school doesn't it's in violation of the federal Clean Water Act. And so the city made a deal that they're going to do two things at once. We're going to purify that sewage. So we'll have no problem there. And we'll have an abundance of water for our residents.
S1: And so right now there's a couple of phases to this project.
S3: Phase one is nearly complete. They're going to start water I think will be in 2027. The first water will be available in it.
S1: So then there's this phase two. Can you kind of break down , you know , that piece of it with some changes ? Like you said , a lot of this was started years ago.
S3: And yeah , well the backdrop.
S1: Situation has changed.
S3: Is oversupply again. Right. When they initially did pure water they thought phase one , they thought overall pure water completely was supposed to be 83 million gallons per day , would be one third of the city's water supply. And now they predict it to be half because the city doesn't have the same level of water supply that people thought 15 years ago because of conservation , because population hasn't grown as much. And so the question is , okay , do we need all of phase two ? And , you know , with construction costs going up and other costs going up , and with inflation for materials , it's like maybe we need to rethink phase two. But luckily for the city , a new method of of purifying the water called direct potable reuse instead of indirect , which no one really understands. But the idea is instead of taking the water , purifying it , and putting it in a reservoir for several months so that it mixes with air and water and that kind of stuff , they would actually purify it and put it right back in the system. So it's direct , and that could save a lot of money , because instead of building a pipeline from the purification plant all the way out to San Vicente Reservoir and Lakeside , the city might be able to not spend all that money. And that's where a lot of the expense comes in. These numbers are hard. Some people say phase two might be 4 billion. Maybe this could shrink it to 2 billion , but those numbers are wild estimates , and it's not like a firm number , but it could be a significant savings.
S4: I always thought that was kind of wild. When I learned about pure water. They walked me through this entire huge system to make it that. They said the water was almost better than what you just get from your tap regularly cleaner. But because of the way this this is such a new idea , this sort of sewage recycling that California said , you have to put it in your clean , clean , clean water into a reservoir , get it dirty again , and then we have to clean it again , just as like a what protection measure or. A.
S3: A.
S4: Single pitch.
S3: I think it has to do with the ick factor , the X factor that comes from the critics originally who didn't like pure water , call it toilet to tap to remind people that this water used to be in the toilet.
S1: You don't hear that term used to.
S3: No you don't. But but now that they're switching to the direct , I'm wondering whether we may hear it again. I don't know , because it's not in the reservoir and it doesn't chemically. Scientifically what Mackenzie saying true. It doesn't make any sense. Right ? The water , you purify it perfectly , and then you'll let it get dirty again. But for some reason , it gives people a sense of ease to know that the water is in a reservoir , that that it's mixing with other water , it's mixing with nature. Right. As opposed to this idea that it comes from a toilet , gets purified and goes right into the tap. So I don't know people that have come a long way. Science has come a long way. Maybe there won't be another resurgence of toilet tap , but this shift has the potential to maybe do that.
S4: There is no water you drink that's not recycled. The water is water. It's a water cycle. It's a global water cycle. But like the tap water that I don't know , I drink tap water. Um , but it's the Colorado River that's. We're at the end of the river. So water gets taken , it gets put back in the river , recycled like it's , you know , we're at the end of that sort of recycling scheme of the Colorado River. So that's one thing to think about is like it's just kind of like a matter of do we trust the science of the pure water system ? And what does the city have in place in case there's like if there's some kind of a problem , how do we prevent , you know , contaminated water from going directly to the tap ? But those questions , I'm sure there's some answers.
S3: But that's a great point. The one fear is that if there is a big crisis , the water didn't get purified properly. If you're putting it in the reservoir , you can stop it before it gets into the system. Her point is , if you put it , if it's going right in you , it's there. Are you going to catch it fast enough ? Yeah.
S1: I mean , so it's sort of interesting to talk about this water problem. It's like there is a problem of of having too much water because storage is an important piece here , right ? David. Well.
S3: That's the only drawback of , of this direct instead of putting it out in a reservoir , is that the city's water usage in the city is not even over the year. During the winter , people use less water because they're not irrigating their lawns , but the sewage is going to be made at almost exactly the same rate. So you're going to continue to have the sewage coming in at the same rate. You're going to be purifying it at the same rate , but you're not going to have the people on the end of the pipe needing it at the same rate. So you're still going to need storage. You won't necessarily need to store it in a reservoir that's super far away , but you'll still need to spend a lot of money on a storage basin. So some of the savings from avoiding the pipeline gets eaten up by having to build that.
S1: And McKenzie , I think you've talked about how I think Orange County has storage underground , or.
S4: I think David knows more about that.
S3: Yeah , well , San Diego was in a weird spot for some reason. The way that the geography is here , we don't have a lot of underground caves or whatever you. Call.
S4: Call. Aquifers.
S3: Aquifers. Right. And so Orange County did , they were the model. They went first. And that was what the state law was based on. You could put it in under the ground. Well , when San Diego decided to do it , they said , we don't have that. So they had to get the state to create a special rule that allows you to put it in a reservoir.
S1: McKenzie kind of talking about water in the future , I think , you know , it's hard , impossible not to talk about climate change. Can you talk a little bit about how that just kind of plays a role in , you know , you mentioned like our different seasons , but also how we get rainfall , the amount and the times is is changing. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. I mean , as. As we use more and more fossil fuels and create more greenhouse gases in the planet. Warms. You know , the water cycle is changing. Storms are getting more intense. So rain will come , but it will come in shorter periods , potentially , and more intensely. So it's harder to capture. It's harder to for the ground to absorb it. It means that water , you know , so that's like an overall problem. And I think what's really important with this whole discussion , and I tried to write about this in my newsletter , the environment report is like we can complain about costs in the business of doing water , but overall , like we depend on the Colorado River right now and it is a completely like climate. Climate change strike and drought , you know , stricken system that in just a few weeks , the whole West is going to have to rethink how we use that river. And it that is not a reliable resource , probably in the , in the far flung future. So to be kind of playing , um , games around recycling our sewage and whether or not that's needed , I think. Honestly , like , I don't really understand that because I feel like you would want to recycle as much as you possibly can , but go ahead. Yeah.
S3: But I think that the reason we're talking about it is because bills right now , after San Diego's increase , they say that their typical families bill will be $180 combined sewer and water. But that's without a part two of pure water , right. And that's also without big raises in wholesale rates that the Water Authority announced this week. They think over the next ten years , the amount they charge local water agencies for water is going to go up by 150%. That means double and then another half. Right. And so that's because of these deals they have in place and conservation and other factors. So the point is what what can people withstand if it's 180. Now when we put up pure water phase two and then you have the water authority could be people paying $300 a month for water and sewer 350.
S4: Um , you know , politically is like water is the only resource that we can't live without that is sort of charged to everybody pretty much the same kind of aggressively. So no matter if you're poor or if you're rich , you kind of have to pay your water bill based on your usage. And that's for under this complicated rule called prop 218. Um , but basically they there might have to be a great rethinking of how water gets charged , because right now it's illegal for water districts like the city of San Diego to say , okay , if you can't , if you're like sort of a lower income person , we can maybe subsidize your water bill so it isn't so catastrophic to you. You don't have to decide between water bill and groceries. You can't do that. Um , but maybe there's a way that they can change this rule so that water districts can sort of subsidize that resource.
S3: Like state voters could overturn prop 218. Theoretically , if it was a dire enough situation. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. So I know in Metropolitan , which is the water district based up in LA that covers a large area , they can put some of their costs on property tax. So that might be something that San Diego could consider , but it would take , again , a lot of political will to.
S1: Mean focusing on the city of Sandy San Diego in this conversation. McKenzie But I'm just wondering , you know , is the cost of water similar in San Diego counties , other cities , or do you guys know.
S3: They said that the comparison that San Diego is right in the middle with this increase , they didn't include the other increases in year two and that sewer. But this this increase , when it takes effect in January , we'll put San Diego almost right , just slightly below average for the water agencies in the region.
S1: So briefly , we have about a minute and a half or so left. I'm just wanted to get your quick thoughts on , you know , what's the biggest question you have next when it comes to San Diego's water. Mackenzie.
S4: I think I'm kind of focused on what the Water Authority can do with its promises to kind of sell off its excess supplies or make these deals across the West. And there's a lot of promises there , but that's really going to come down some larger negotiations on the Colorado River and and Trump's administration , whether or not what they're going to do if the states can't agree , which they're not agreeing right now , and what to do. So we're kind of in this waiting game to see , like what hammer is going to be thrown down. And that's all going to trickle down potentially to San Diego. But again , we paid a lot for water. But we have water like yeah , at least we have secure water supply.
S3: So I think you stole the easy one on the sales to the Arizona New Mexico. But I think that what happens with phase two of pure water , the city has some huge decisions to make , build it smaller , don't build it at all , or build it like you planned it in the first place.
S1: A lot with water. I want to thank both of you for breaking some of this stuff down for us. I've been speaking with Mackenzie Elmer. She's voice of San Diego's energy and environment reporter , and also David Garrick , covers all things city hall for the San Diego Union Tribune. Thanks to you both.
S3: Thanks , thanks.
S1: Coming up for our new San Diego Storyteller series , a conversation with local horror writers on how to write with the intention to scare readers and what scares them. That's next on the KPBS roundtable. I. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. Roundtable has always been a place for journalists to come talk about their stories. Talk about , you know , the stories from the week in San Diego. But our region is also home to a lot of other types of storytellers as well. Authors , playwrights , poets. Also call San Diego home , and we want to highlight some of them too. This is part of a new series here on roundtable called San Diego Storytellers. Today being Halloween , we bring you a panel of local horror writers to share more about their work and how they approach it. Today , I'm joined by Casey Griffin. She's the author of Melinda West Monster Gunslinger. It's a and and a short story collection titled Shrouded Horror. Casey , welcome to roundtable.
S6: Thanks for having me.
S1: Well , great to have you here. So Shane Hawke is also here. He wrote the short story collection Anoka and also was editor on the book Never Whistle at Night. It's an indigenous anthology of horror stories. Shane , welcome to you.
S7: Ho ho for having me here. Thank you.
S1: And finally , John Cohen. He is the author of the book Kill Beth and upcoming The Creed Falls Massacres. Joan. John , welcome to roundtable and happy Halloween , everybody.
S8: Happy Halloween. Thanks for having us.
S1: So I'm just wondering if each of you just a couple words. I mean , can you talk about what you think are some of the key ingredients in telling a scary story. Casey , I'll start with you. Sure.
S6: Sure. Yeah , so there's a lot of ingredients , but I would say one of the biggest is an element of suspense. And also surprise. Right. You want something unexpected to happen in your story. You want to subvert , um , expectations or what the reader or viewer is going to think is going to happen. Um , this is done effectively. When you have a monster that's maybe not what you think it is , or the serial killer is someone else , right ? That tends to make very scary stories , in my opinion.
S1: Shane , what about you ? I mean , there's a lot of different types of ways to scare people , a lot of different types of horror.
S7: If you're not afraid for the protagonist , or at least someone in the story , um , it can be kind of hard to follow the story and be scared. So you really have to threaten whoever's in the story. It has to be , you know , somewhat realistic to kind of pull the reader in. But if you don't have stakes , you don't really have that scary of a story , in my opinion. Mm.
S1: Mm. John , you're nodding your head.
S8: Yeah , yeah. Characters are the center of any good story , and horror is no different. You have to get to know your characters. You have to love your characters. You have to want to see your characters to succeed in what's often the worst day of their lives. So if you don't care about that character , then you're not going to be engaged in that story.
S1: Well , I want to kind of dig into each of your work a little bit more to learn more about it. Shane , um , you know , your your first book was this collection Anoka. It's a collection of stories set in a small town in Minnesota.
S7: Um , this was during the pandemic lockdown era , and it's basically when I started becoming a writer. It's my first project. I was looking for spooky places , haunted places around America , and I kept landing on Anoka , Minnesota , which is a word that is shortened from Anoka Tonton , which means on two sides of the river. And so that kind of town spoke to me as someone who is both Native American and white. And so I was really trying to find somewhere spooky that I could really dig my teeth into. And I decided to choose Minnesota , because I've also been in Minnesota most summers when I was a kid.
S1: I mean , you also started writing kind of in response to a tweet that , you know , had a particular resonance to you. Talk to talk to me about that and how that kind of led you on this road. Yeah.
S7: Yeah. Well , the tweet is more so for the project of Never Whistle at Night. And that was in the tail end of 2021 actually 2020. Sorry. Um , someone was saying , you know , when are we going to get an indigenous horror anthology ? And so that tweet was passing around. I was tagged in it numerous times , and that really triggered. I never was till at night becoming something. At first it was maybe an idea someone else would do. We took it on me and Ted Van Elst. We thought I'd Kickstarter at first , and then eventually we got an agent and it went to Penguin Random House across three imprints across North America. So really grateful for that idea to be sparked there. But we took it by the reins and we made it happen.
S1: Casey , your road to becoming a horror writers. An interesting one. I mean , you have a scientific background , you know. Talk to me about that.
S6: So I studied to become a scientist. Um , worked in a lab , discovered , you know , I didn't love the lab work , but I loved writing , whether it was fiction or nonfiction. So I became a science journalist for my day job. And today I still write about science , and I work for a science institute. And it's great because I get to see new discoveries in the lab. I get to learn about what scientists are doing , and that provides a lot of inspiration for fiction. I've written a lot of science fiction , but I've always gravitated towards horror and where things can go wrong , whether intentionally or unintentionally. So science provides a really good fodder for ideas for me.
S1: John , you , in addition to your writing , you were just telling us you design board games , card games , you know , how how does that fit with your writing ? I mean , I imagine there's some overlap there in creating each type of.
S8: Yeah , there's actually a surprising amount of overlap. Storytelling can take so many different shapes and forms. When you're writing a book or making a game , it's a highly iterative process. You see what you've made , you've created something , and then it needs some revisions. It needs some updating to become the best expression of whatever it is that you're trying to express. And so there are a lot of instances in board games where you are creating the scaffolding for people to tell their own story , whereas with a horror novel you are telling the story a little bit more explicitly. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. Interesting. I want to kind of delve into some of the psychology of horror. This is something I've been thinking a lot about. You know , when when getting ready to talk to you all. What is it about horror ? Like , why do people enjoy being scared so much ? What do you think ? You know , capture. You know , so captivating to you , Casey , about that feeling of just being out of control and terrified.
S6: I think there's a few things that appeal to Two people when they're watching a reading horror. One is catharsis , right ? So you're able to go through this horrific experience with the character , but you come out unscathed. You are alive. You've survived. Right. That can also be a very powerful way to process emotion and trauma and scary things in a safe setting. Um , also , horror is just fun , right ? It's exhilarating. You may get a rush. It's like telling stories around the campfire , right ? It's fun. It's bonding. It's like riding a roller coaster. Um , so I think there's a lot of different reasons why people enjoy the genre. Um , I also see it a little bit like a survival manual. Like when you watch a zombie movie , um , or a documentary on a serial killer. Okay , here are the things I need to do if I'm in that situation. Well.
S1: Well. That's interesting. I mean , Shane , we know , um , you know , Covid happened about five years ago , and that's kind of one example. I think each of you have expressed , you know , memories from that time or , you know , ways that influenced your work. Um , you know , talk to me about how , you know , how horror and real life kind of intersect for you.
S7: Uh , well , so being a Native American , um , a lot of our stories are horror already. We've survived an apocalypse already. Um , and it's ongoing. Sort of. Um , so for real life and horror , um , at least in my writing , I like to highlight the past. The present , in the future. Um , and I usually try to insert hope into my horror , um , because that's all we can be as natives is we have to hope for something better than what we have had before and what we have now. Um , and for me , I think I like to really look into my family. Um , I like to kind of give alternate , um , histories , sort of , um , wherein my ancestors maybe get a win here or a win there. Not to say that it's a game at all , but there are some definite real life human horrors that happen to people in my family that I get to maybe have that family member as a protagonist or as a side character , and they get to confront those evils , and I get to write the ending instead.
S1: John , I mean , how do you think about that ? And you know what's so captivating about horror for you or the feeling of being scared ? Fear.
S8: Fear is a universal experience. It's something that we all deal with , some more than others. But expressing that fear in and experiencing that fear in a safe space where you are allowed to really feel with those characters , where you are allowed to explore those horrifying experiences from the comfort of your couch. And then at the end of that experience , you can walk away and say , I was okay , I'm all right with this. I think that that is something that can be very empowering to people , especially when we are in a time when things are scarier than usual. The scarier life gets , the more people have a demand for horror.
S1: Ahead will continue our conversation with San Diego horror writers and , you know , kind of find out more about what scares them. You're listening to KPBS roundtable. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken for Halloween. We're talking with San Diego horror writers about what drives them and their work. I'm speaking with Casey Griffin , John Cohen , along with Shane Hawke. I want to talk to each of you a bit more about how San Diego plays into your work , and what it's like to be a writer here. Um , you know , I think each of you have been a part of the San Diego Horror Writers Association.
S6: I was surprised when I moved here about ten years ago and found there were so many authors and so many horror authors , Or specifically from bestsellers to children's authors who write horror , comedy , horror writers. Really ? Everything. I co-founded the Hwa San Diego chapter here in 2016 , and I've really seen it grow. We have about 50 active members. Um , we go to book events , comic cons. We try to really have a presence in terms of horror literature and sharing the love of horror in our community.
S1: Shane writings , you know , can be a pretty solitary profession , you know.
S7: You know , I like my alone time to kind of dig into the horrors. Um , but I definitely do love the community. Um , I'm a little bit isolated as I'm in North County. Um , that's where I grew up. And I can't make it to all the events that I would like to. I'm also a new dad. Um , so my hands are a little full juggling , uh , you know , um , my own writing. I'm an editor for Counterpoint Press now. Um , I'm editing Never Whistle at Night part two and talking about part three right now , and then taking on other projects of my own to , um , film and TV. Um , so there's plenty of time in my office , which is decked out with all sorts of horror memorabilia and fun stuff that I get to tinker with. Um , but I definitely do wish I can make it to more events and like , dinners and hang out with folks. You know , the San Diego archway. Um , it's just really hard to find the time.
S1: So , John , I mean , Casey talked about this thriving writer community for for horror here in San Diego. I'm wondering if you can , you know , tell us who are some other San Diego horror writers that that you think people should know about ? Yeah.
S8: So I didn't realize that so many of the authors I was a fan of lived here until I joined the Hwa and started meeting with them as peers , which still feels wild to me. Authors like Peter Clines , Jonathan Maybury , Brian Asman these were all people who were names that were common in my household for years before I even considered writing professionally. So it's been extremely rewarding and just a great community of wonderful people that I've gotten to experience living here in San Diego and writing horror. Casey.
S1: Casey. Go ahead.
S6: I wanted to add as well , we have some amazing bookstores here in San Diego that are really the hub for a lot of our activities , including Artifact Books in Encinitas , Mysterious Galaxy , verbatim , Barnes and Noble. I mean , we're so lucky to have these bookstores here.
S1: And they also have a lot of community events and kind of. Yeah , Yeah , absolutely. I want to talk. You know , you're talking about the just the horror writers scene here in San Diego , but also just the horror genre I think has has grown quite a bit in the last few years. And also , you know , a lot of popular movies , but not only just popular , critically acclaimed , you know , pieces of horror.
S7: Which blood and guts stories are awesome. They're fun. Um , but when you insert social commentary and you can actually maybe point a spotlight at those in power and power structures and , um , you know , the people that are being oppressed , I think that kind of reaches the everyman , and we all can kind of connect through horror in that way. And whether it's on the page or the screen. Um , you know , I'm thinking about Jordan Peele's Get Out. They kind of triggered a lot of horror in Hollywood that focuses on race relations on , um , you know , slavery , on , you know , past atrocities that continue to affect communities. And I think , uh , you know , a lot of us , I think , can agree that we're not sure about the term elevated horror. Um , but so far , I haven't heard a better term for it yet. Where , um , you know , it's the same thing with writing. A lot of people hate the term like literary or literary horror , because it sounds like it's more , uh , snooty. Exclusive.
S1: Exclusive. Yeah.
S7: Yeah. Um , and I , you know , there is a place , though , where there's writers that are , um , you know , applying , you know , at line level , you know , um , musicality to their , their works and , um , putting a little bit more touch on it.
S1: Well , I think that's really interesting. I mean , Shane mentioned there that's sort of , you know , the literature of that can be kind of exclusionary in a sense , and it is the fact that , you know , folks are reading less. There was a recent study that found reading for pleasures declined by something like 40% over the last two decades. There's a lot of options like buying for or , you know , there's so many ways we can get our entertainment today. Casey , how do you think written stories , you know. What do you think they give us that other types of art can't.
S6: Reading is a really special act because it gives you the ability to emphasize in a way that you do with movies. But reading is more intimate in a way you can really get inside a character's head. You can really become the character in a way that I don't think any other art form quite allows it. But I would put like comics under that graphic novels , audiobooks. So even if reading actual books have declined , I think there are other avenues that readers are exploring.
S1: No , that's definitely a debate we often have here is , if , you know , listening to an audiobook , is that reading a book ? I don't think you know what I mean.
S6: It is 100%. John.
S1: John. Go ahead. Yeah.
S8: Yeah. I just think that reading is such an engaging and full , engaging experience from your attention. It demands all of your attention. I know that even when I'm watching things on TV that I'm enjoying , I. It's not uncommon for myself or my wife or people I'm with to pull out your phones and start to look at your phone , and you don't mean to veer away from paying attention to the TV or whatever it is , but it happens with your shortened attention spans , and it just it's something that happens without you realizing it. And when you sit and read , all of your attention is there on the book. There's nothing else going on in the world for you other than sitting there and reading. You can't literally can't read a book while on your phone. It's impossible.
S1: That's I've never thought of that. But that's absolutely true. And I am guilty of that all the time of like , looking stuff up. I was watching , yeah , like a series last night and I did that. Um , Shane , you know , you've talked about , you know , your journey and you know how you look upon telling stories of , you know , indigenous people.
S7: Um , representation in the publishing industry or Hollywood has been fairly negative for Native Americans leading up to about now. Um , you know , we make up less than 1% of the publishing industry from editors on down. Um , but we're trying to change that whenever we're still at night. Um , it's a major project that I've taken on that aims to have basically half established voices in the book and then half from an open call. So I'm some discovering new writers or lesser known writers and trying to kind of boost their career or make a career for them by putting them in an anthology that , um , you know , gets a lot of eyes on it , let's say. Um , and I think in the horror publishing industry or the community , I think there's been a lot of , um , people paying attention to indigenous stories , uh , specifically written by indigenous people. So there's a big contention with a lot of folks that are trying to tell native stories that aren't native. Um , and a lot more people are paying attention to that since the pandemic. Um , and forward , I think people are paying attention and listening to other natives in our , um , our advice , you know , to support actual native artists and not just native influence people , you know , that goes with art and , um , anything else. Um , as well. And I think it's , uh , it's changing for the better. And I think , you know , we've moved the the ticker just slightly and we're going to keep on pushing forward and make representation better. And you know , all we can do is try to push for better contracts for natives to be in the in the seat. When you're talking to executives , like I heard from Sherry and my friend that , um , Lily Gladstone now has it in her contracts to never be in a negotiating room with other executives without two other Native Americans present or First Nations peoples. And I think that kind of gives you power to make sure the story that is represented on screen is , you know , more accurate and actually , you know , honest.
S1: I really quick we got to go. We just about 20s left. Casey I just want can you really quick what scares you the most ? What captures you. Everybody has their own little scare point.
S6: I've mostly grown out of it , but I was telling you earlier , I had that run in with a tarantula in my backyard a few years ago , and all my fears came back. Um.
S1: John , real quick , we've just a few seconds , but.
S8: Injuries and illness , things that can go wrong in in real life , that sneak up on you , things that you're not aware of.
S1: Well , I really enjoyed this conversation. I want to appreciate I appreciate all of you for joining us today. I've been speaking with San Diego horror writers Shane Hawk , Casey Griffin , along with John Cohen. We'll have links to their work on our website , KPBS. Thanks so much for being here and again. Happy Halloween. That'll do it for our show today. Thanks so much for listening to KPBS roundtable. You can listen to the show anytime as a podcast. Happy Halloween , have a great Halloween , and we'll see you next week.
