S1: Welcome in San Diego. It's Jade Hindman on today's show , a look at the new rules around student loans. We'll talk about how to protect borrowers , and how reframing student debt into a social justice issue could help fix the crisis. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. We hear so often about San Diego's high cost of living , with housing costs getting much of the focus. But another factor making affordability so difficult for many is student debt. Over 42 million Americans have student loan debt. That's more than $1.6 trillion owed in total. Late last year , the Trump administration announced plans to begin garnishing wages of borrowers in default on student loans , but backtrack that earlier this month. The result is really just a lot of confusion and a lot of stress for those with student debt lists or IHSa controller. Barnes joins me now. She is the policy director with Protect Bars and AISA. Welcome to Midday Edition.
S2: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
S1: Really glad to have you here and looking forward to your insights on all this.
S2: But I think right now we have a lot of folks who are really , um , nervous. They're stressed. Um , they're struggling. Uh , we have an unprecedented student loan default crisis , which over the last year of the Trump administration , 3.6 million borrowers fell into default on their student loans. That means that they are potentially at risk of seeing , you know , their their wages garnished and benefits offset by the federal government. Um , it also means that they're taking major hits to their credit score. Um , and which , you know , we all know that once you see major hits to your credit score , it makes it much harder to access other types of , of loans or credit access housing and even secure a job. Um , and so amidst a growing affordability crisis , that's , that's already kind of being , um , so , so direly felt by so many working families. You know , folks with student loan debt are also struggling with trying to understand what their options are , how they can be able to affordably repay their loans and keep food on the table in a roof over them and their family's heads.
S1: It impacts so many people in so many different ways. Do you have a sense of who is most impacted by student debt ? Definitely.
S2: So we know that , you know , student loan debt is both kind of born out of the racial wealth gap. And it also exacerbates the racial wealth gap. Right. So we know that families who are less likely to have generational wealth , less likely to have the resources to just pay tuition up front. Um , are the going to be the ones who are going to have to borrow more then , um , they're going to have to borrow more frequently and they're gonna have to borrow at higher rates. So we know that black and brown families , low income families are more likely to have to take on these , these debts. And then after the fact , they're going to be more likely to struggle to to pay it off. Uh , we also know that women , uh , over two thirds of all student debt , um , and black women , um , lead as the most burdened by the student loan debt crisis. Um , we oftentimes hear that student debt is an issue that only affects young people or millennials , but that cannot be further from the truth. We know that student debt is also a cross generational issue , with the fastest growing group of student loan borrowers actually being Americans over the age of 60. Um , and that oftentimes comes from folks who are , you know , still paying off their loans into their older years , but also taking on additional debt in order to help their children and their grandchildren pay for college. Wow.
S1: Wow. And so and it impacts people long into their lives. You know , you mentioned some of the actions the Biden administration took to address the problem of student debt.
S2: Um , that ultimately , you know , uh , was was blocked by the Supreme Court and was challenged by multiple , um , Republican attorneys general. Um , and that ultimately took about a year and a year of of just back and forth between the courts. Um , so that was certainly one of the most high profile actions. And that was really to , um , in response to the really lingering kind of economic challenges that we saw , um , kind of coming out of , of the , the Covid 19 pandemic. Um , in addition to that action , the Biden administration also , um , created a new affordable repayment option known as the Save plan. Um , this repayment option would have given most borrowers some of the most affordable monthly bills , monthly payments. Um , to date. And unfortunately , um , this plan was also challenged by Right Wing's , the right wing attorney generals in the courts , and has been the topic of litigation now for a little over 2 or 3 years now. Um , and as a result , you know , there were seven there were there at the peak. There were 8 million people who were enrolled in in the Save plan. Um , and these were all folks who , you know , signed up , you know , or were kind of grandfathered into the plan and , and were preparing to make their payments and continue to , um , make progress towards towards being debt free. Um , and when this plan was ultimately challenged in the courts , um , many of these folks have been stuck in a forbearance , um , which has prevented them from being able to to make payments and make progress towards public service loan forgiveness and income driven repayment. Um , and actually , unfortunately , recently the the Trump administration entered a settlement with these attorneys general to formally wind down this , this repayment option , um , which will essentially mean that these 7 million people who are enrolled in this plan are going to be pushed off of this plan and into much more expensive plans. That is going to be , you know , essentially making their monthly bills significantly more expensive on a monthly and annual basis.
S1:
S2: I would argue that nobody benefits. I think nobody benefits from even more chaos and confusion in the student loan system. Um , the lowest income borrowers certainly don't benefit. I think proponents or opponents of efforts to make things more affordable for folks with student loan debt would argue that , you know , by making Americans pay more of their student loans that , you know , the taxpayer benefits. But unfortunately , when we have folks who are defaulting in mass numbers , you know , that is not to the benefit of any of the taxpayers , either. And it's certainly not to a benefit of the broader economy. When you have folks literally choosing between keeping up with their student loan debt and keeping food on the table or , you know , staying on top of their credit card bills or staying on top of their car , you know , their car payments. Um , and so , you know , it's been a lot of , of uncertainty for millions of folks who are enrolled in these plans. Um , and as folks may have seen , um , actions in Congress recently with the passage of the one big beautiful bill is only making things even more confusing as as the department is is beginning its work to implement that massive new bill. Um , and , and essentially , um , create new plans and force people off of their current options , etc. so I would argue that nobody benefits when those. Those plans get nixed because ultimately it just makes it harder for folks to to. Make ends meet. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. So where does this all leave borrowers who I mean. Like what options do they have when this uncertainty from from some of the plans. Just just falls through.
S2: So I think , you know , with regards to save borrowers , you know , we have been really encouraging folks to , you know , um , explore their options , explore what other repayment options are available to them. Unfortunately for most , it's going to mean a significantly more expensive monthly student loan bill. Um , but if folks can afford it , they should consider getting off of the save plan and get an enrolling in another plan. The challenge there is that , you know , under the Trump administration , there is currently a million application backlog of folks who are also desperately trying to get into more affordable options. But what we've been telling folks is , is to submit their application. Once they submit their application , they should call their student loan servicer and let them know that they've applied to , you know , enroll in a different plan and request , you know , to be placed in a , in a processing forbearance , which will allow them to , you know , not have to make payments while their application is processing. Um , for folks who , you know , really cannot afford to see their payments jump just right now. Um , that could be a really helpful way to get , you know , um , to , to stay up on their , on their student loans while they're waiting for a more affordable plan to , for them to be enrolled in a more affordable plan. Um , in addition to that , you know , there is is a factor to consider for folks who are , you know , stuck in this safe mess. Um , is that earlier this year , the Trump administration announced that they were going to resume interest accrual on borrowers who were in this plan. So that means that folks who are in this forbearance , you know , their interest is now accruing and they are not making progress towards paying down that loan. And so that makes it even more important to understand your options and understand which other alternative repayment plans , um , might be , might be the better that the better option for them in their financial situation.
S1: And where can they submit that application ? What's the website borrowers need to actually go to.
S2: So they should head over to Student aid.gov. Um , that is the website for the Department of Education. You can get information on the various repayment options that are available to you. Um , you can get information on um , on , you know , how to how to apply for the income driven repayment option. You can also , if you log into your portal , get contact information for your specific student loan servicer. These are the private companies that are paid by the Department of Education to help borrowers , um , you know , facilitate and pay their their monthly student loan bills. Um , but these are all for borrowers who currently have student loans. You know , for folks who are currently enrolled in school and are planning on taking on future loans , there's going to be a lot of changes , um , as a result of this new one , big , beautiful bill. Um , and so it's important to kind of stay up to date on that student.gov website. Um , to just check up on , on updates as they come.
S1: All right. Well , you know , we reached out to hear about people's experiences just living with student debt. And we received this from a listener named Andrew.
S3: I mean , the one thing I am curious about is , I mean , we talk a lot about public service loan forgiveness , but , you know , the 20 years on IBR , I feel like in some ways that was never really even talked about after the fact. Um , I know a lot of people who have been paying their loans for over 20 years and , you know , people still aren't really getting their loans forgiven. So I'm just kind of wondering , you know , are we ever going to have a really kind of realistic , like transparent view of how long we've been paying loans and when some of these programs will ever actually meet what they say they're going to do.
S1: Well , I mean , what would you say to Andrew ? I mean , it sounds again , like there's this feeling of confusion in this case around loan forgiveness. Absolutely.
S2: Absolutely. It's a case of confusion. But also it's it's decades of broken promises. Really. Um , you know , when you are signing up for a federal student loan , you are signing up for a product that includes benefits and a safety net , benefits that include repayment options that will allow a borrower to tie their monthly bill to their income. And as Andrew had mentioned , after 20 or 25 years , you are entitled to see the remaining balance of your student loan canceled. That has been a fundamental piece of the , you know , student loan safety net. Um , that has been it's that's an entitlement to student loan borrowers with federal student loans. Unfortunately , for far too long , the system has been broken. And it's largely been because of systemic failures from student loan servicers who instead of keep adequately keeping track of folks monthly payments so that they're keeping track of of their progress towards that 20 and 25 year. Years of forgiveness. Um , you know , there were many stories of folks losing payment accounts and mis applying payments , pushing folks into long term forbearance and deferments , and essentially pushing that relief that borrowers were entitled to out of reach. This was actually one of the things that the Biden administration was , was able to make significant progress on , um , over the last four years with what was known as the IDR account adjustment , where the Department of Ed literally did an accounting of every single payment that borrowers had made and found , you know , found significant numbers of borrowers who had achieved that time frame or that that requirement for cancellation and was able to finally cancel those loans. Um , and so , I think , you know , one of the things that came out of the Biden administration , which was a good development , was that we finally saw folks who had been stuck in these plans for longer than they needed to. They finally were able to get that , that cancellation. But then they also created a IDR progress tracker , which was essentially a tracker that could tell a borrower how many more monthly payments you need to make in order to access cancellation. Um , and we've been working on the , you know , on pushing the , the department because earlier this year , um , the Secretary McMahon announced that she was not going to , um , include or not not going to maintain that tracker on on the Department of Education's website. Something as simple as , you know , just being able to track how long folks have been paying and how close they could be to being debt free. Um , and so that's something that we've been , you know , trying to push the Trump administration to reverse course on and put that resource back online for folks. Um , because it is a key resource to help folks understand when the light at the end of the tunnel could come.
S1: That's such a good effort and such valuable information too. Here's another listener comment we received. This comes from Sabrina Strong. Sabrina says she goes , I recently paid off $54,000 in student debt last year in December 2025. I mourn how much money I could have saved and how much further ahead I could have been without it , but I'm happy I can finally focus on my own financial well-being. Uh , I mean , one thing that really jumps out to me. She uses the word mourn there , and it really highlights how much of a mental and emotional toll student debt can actually have.
S2: You know , we oftentimes hear , you know , student loan debt being talked about as , as this little silo. Right. But we don't realize is that the folks who have student loans , that debt , literally it it it you carry it in all aspect of your lives. It is preventing people from being able to buy a house. It's preventing people from being able to start a small business. It's preventing people from being able to start a family because they cannot afford to have their first child or grow their family. Um , and then we also hear about how student loan debt is exacerbating the mental health crisis in this country. We know that higher rates of student loan indebtedness increase the likelihood of of mental health distress of of suicidal ideation. Um , you know , if have even seen studies that have shown higher rates of student loan debt and lower public health or lower health outcomes. Um , as as folks are forced to delay , you know , medical care or are forced to pay or to pick between , you know , paying their loans and , and keeping up with their prescription drugs. Um , so it is absolutely all interconnected. And , you know , the student debt crisis is absolutely making the mental health and well-being , you know , much , much harder for folks.
S1: Such far reaching impacts and such a valuable conversation here. I've been speaking with Isaac Ibanez , policy director with Protect Borrowers. Aisa , thank you so very much , I appreciate you.
S2: Of course. Thank you for having me.
S1: Still to come , we continue our conversation on student loans with an author who explores debt as a social justice issue , rather than a financial one. KPBS Midday Edition is back after the break. Welcome back. You're listening to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman. Earlier this hour , we looked at some of the biggest changes in student loans today. But how did we get to this point ? Well , a new book , The Student Debt Crisis America's Moral Urgency , looks at the origins of the U.S. student loan system and reframes debt as not just an individual and financial issue , but one of economic and racial justice. Jamal Watson is the author. He's a higher ed journalist , professor and associate dean of graduate studies at Trinity Washington University. Jamal , welcome to the show.
S4: Thanks so much for having me. Glad to be here.
S1: Glad you took the time. So so the book looks at student debt as a civil rights issue. So tell me a bit about that.
S4: So 45 million Americans are in debt at the tune of $1.7 trillion , which is just , um , unthinkable when you really consider that number. And of that $1.7 trillion that's consumed by 45 million Americans , black women , um , they hold most of that debt. So I wanted to first think about the ways in which black women in this country are struggling not only to be mothers and caregivers and to assume all of the things that black women do , but also now that on top of all of that , they have to they have to think about that. But I really wanted to frame it as a moral civil rights issue , because , again , from the very inception of our kind of modern society , we've told young people that if you play by the rules , you work really hard , you should go to college , right ? And you should be able to use that degree to advance in society. The problem is , is that so many people are doing that , but they're finding that they're unable to create a living for themselves and for their families because they simply are saddled into debt. So if we reframe this discussion to focus it as a civil rights and a moral issue , I think we can gain bipartisan support for the need to do something about the student debt crisis.
S1: Well , now , you mentioned the racial disparities and just the inequities in the student loan system. And this comes from just a long legacy of inequality.
S4: You had Claiborne Pell , the late Claiborne Pell , um , the legislator from Rhode Island , um , who the Pell Grant is named after , which , you know , for for most of the listeners , the Pell Grant is really the federal subsidy that really allows the most neediest , uh , Americans , uh , to be able to access , um , higher education. And then you had legislators like Adam Clayton Powell in Harlem beginning to agitate and argue for the need to make , um again , higher and much more accessible. But over time , there was sort of this stagnation that happened , right ? Colleges continue to get much more expensive. Um , there was not an investment in the Pell Grant. So right now the Pell Grant is only about $7,000 or so. Um , and there are many higher educational organizations that are arguing for doubling Pell because it's simply not enough to cover , um , uh , you know , tuition falls. Um , and then again , the rising cost of higher education has just skyrocketed. At the same time , you also have for profit institutions. Um , and I won't name their names , but I think many of your listeners probably know who kind of preyed on certain groups of people. And as a result , you had , um , individuals who graduated from these for profit schools with degrees that really , um , were not , um , uh , usable in terms of being able to market them in their field , but yet they were in debt. Um , so that is also a major problem because , again , you have $100,000 of debt , uh , and you don't even have a degree that that is , um , useful in your field. Um , and so and so that's been a problem. And I think , you know , we can certainly look to other countries , um , as models to see how to do this. Right. Because if you look at many European nations and , and other places around the globe , they figured out how to either eliminate , um , uh , tuition , uh , and make college free or certainly to reduce it dramatically. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. Okay. So , my goodness , there's such a long history. Here we go back to , you know , the 1860s and , um , you know , a lot of universities offered , um , free tuition through , you know , federal land grants. Um , and then you had , uh , you know , Nixon came in at some point with , with , uh , loans. And I mean , let's go back to the beginning.
S4: But I think part of this was this , um , interest in trying to make colleges and universities much more competitive. Right. So again , if you were able to say , we specialize in this , we can offer these kinds of services. Um , you were able to charge for that. Right. And people were often willing to , to pay for it. So I teach at a minority serving institution , uh , Trinity Washington University. It wasn't always a minority serving institution. So about 80% of our students are either black or Hispanic. Um , so it's a predominantly black institution , a Hispanic serving institution. At one time , it was an all women's college that was largely made up of predominantly white women. So Nancy Pelosi , the former speaker of the House , she went to Trinity. Uh , Kellyanne Conway , who was the adviser to President Trump , went to Trinity. Uh , it was a very affluent kind of institution. But as the demographics begin to shift and change where parents weren't not necessarily , uh , sending their kids to , to to , uh , Washington , D.C. , to an institution like Trinity , uh , it enabled the leadership of the institution to begin to say we need to now target a new demographic in order to make sure that we survive. And so the president made the decision to really , um , go after students in the D.C. area , um , largely minoritized students. So it's a fascinating history. Um , given the fact that the institution had been around since 1897. Um , and so what you're finding is more and more institutions are trying to find ways to fill , um , the , you know , the economics of running the institution. Uh , and that's very , very difficult to do. So their argument is that we have to rise , raise costs in order to be able to meet those needs. But we're also seeing more and more colleges and universities either merging or they're certainly closing because they're not able to bring in , uh , revenue to keep the institutions afloat. So it's a it's a very challenging time , I think , for higher education. And we're also seeing a decline in the number of students who are enrolling at institutions. Right.
S1: Right. You know , in the book , you also looked at the role of religious and faith based communities played in helping meet the needs of students and borrowers. Talk more about that. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. I mean , I grew up in a in a black Baptist church , right ? So my church was the First Nazarene Baptist Church. And when I went off to college , I went to Georgetown undergrad. My church basically passed the plate in like the collection offering. And basically they they took up a collection for me. They put it in the trash bags and they said , you know , here's some money to help you pay for your your books. So when we think about the history of the faith based community in this country , particularly the black church. Um , because again , I'm framing this in a civil rights kind of context , I think it's really important to understand the ways in which those , um , praying grandmothers , those praying mothers , those elders within the church really invested in , uh , the opportunities and the hopes of young people , even if they did not have , um , you know , a college degree , right ? Um , when I went to college , you know , every week there was this woman. Her name was Mattie Kelly. And she would send me $20 in the mail. Right. And she would write these little encouraging notes to say , we are so proud of you. And my mother would go to church and tell her , stop sending that boy money. He's okay. And she would say , no , no , no , I want to send him $20 just to keep him encouraged. And she did that for four years. He was a woman who was on a fixed income , right ? Uh , didn't even have a high school diploma. But she was so invested in my success as she wanted to support me while I was in college. And that's the kind of , I think , ways in which , um , you know , communities have really stepped in and fill the gap that has historically existed. Um , because the government , unfortunately , um , hasn't been able to do as much as I think so many of us wish that they they would. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And that's so true. I remember heading off to college and my church , Saint Pauli and me in Saint Louis. You know , they paid for my , my books , you know , for a semester. Um , so , so much support comes from , you know , the church and faith communities and such. You also captured , you know , this , um , human aspect of the problem. Tell me about one of the people you spoke to and why their story resonated with you.
S4: Well , well , one that that that resonated. And there were so many. Um , because one of the things to your point that I wanted to do was not just write a book that was filled with a lot of numbers , but also to attach the human stories of individuals who kind of struggled , um , with trying to deal with this debt crisis. And even before we get to the repayment of student loans , we also have to grapple with the fact that there are so many young people today who are housing insecure , who are food insecure , right ? But they're still going to classes , right ? And they're still thinking about this mounting debt that waits them once they graduate. But they're still struggling now , and some of them are working 2 or 3 jobs while they're taking a full course load. So I think sometimes those are the hidden or invisible , um , realities that we often don't address. But there was one young man , his name was Alec McMillan , who I interviewed , uh , and spent some time with , and he had gotten accepted to , uh , North Carolina A&M University , which is the largest , uh , historically black university in this country. Um , and he enrolled , uh , on an ROTC , uh , scholarship. And because he was on an ROTC scholarship , uh , basically his tuition was paid. Uh , well , while he was , uh , at school , there were there were so many incidents that were happening around the country. Um , you know , certainly the death of Trayvon Martin and , and , and other unrest. And he decided that he wanted to be an activist. Um , and so he decided not to continue in the ROTC , um , but to become a student activist and leader , uh , on his campus. And so he lost his ROTC scholarship and was really struggling to figure out how he was going to pay , um , how he was going to pay his tuition. Um , which was at that time about , you know , $1,500 a month , which was which was a lot. Um , for a young man. And he didn't have family and support to be able to , to help him in that way. And so , um , his story resonated because I realized that there were so many other there are so many other young people like him who experienced similar things. and yet he was able to graduate , in part because , again , there were administrators. There were faculty at North Carolina , AT&T who helped him , who sometimes dig , were able to dig into their own pockets to to provide some support. Um , which speaks to , again , the power of some of our institutions to be able to help young people. But it was very , very challenging for him. And , uh , um , now he's so passionate about this issue that it has become , uh , as an activist , one of the main , um , agenda items for him , um , moving forward.
S1:
S4: Well , I think help ease some of the debt that so many young people face or students face. So I hope people will consider doing that. The other thing I think we need to do is think about the partnerships that we can create between government and private sector , right. So I was very , very , um , thrilled , um , when many years ago , um , Robert Smith , the businessman , decided that he was going to forgive the student debt of students who were graduating from Morehouse College in Atlanta , Georgia. It was a very powerful form of philanthropy. And I think that kind of public gesture , um , has meant the world to helping young people to realize that , again , they can , in fact start their lives without being saddled in debt. And I interviewed a number of those young men who said that , you know , graduation day was was just the best day of their lives because they didn't have to think about that loan , that they knew that they would have to start repaying back in a couple of months. And so I'm also encouraged by the philanthropy of people like Mackenzie Scott and others who have given millions and millions of dollars to support institutions , which I think has helped to defray the cost. You know , one of the things people don't realize is that during the Covid pandemic , right , when there had to be a shift from on campus learning to kind of virtual and online , that there were a whole number of students in this country who didn't have access to broadband , right ? So they couldn't just hop on zoom. You know , people were like , just go and zoom. Uh , well , if you're living in rural areas or you are pouring , your family doesn't have access to broadband , how are you going to do your classes ? And so , there were a number of individuals who told me that , you know , they had at their institutions something similar to like correspondence courses where , you know , professors would actually send all of the work via US postal mail , which is hard to believe that in 2020 , right when the pandemic was in full effect , that we were doing that. But that's the reality , I think , for so many , um , for so many individuals. So I would like to see all of that. But finally , I would like for there to be , um , a kind of national convening around the need to make one higher ed much more accessible and affordable. And also , I think that there is a need to reinvigorate this discussion about , um , student debt. And I would like to see it in a bipartisan way , because I think that it impacts Republicans , Democrats. And I think if , again , if we reframe it as a moral and we reframe it as a civil rights issue , I think we can get that support from all sides of the aisle.
S1: All right. I've been speaking with Jamal Watson , author of the book The Student Debt Crisis America's Moral Urgency. Jamal , thank you so very much.
S4: Thank you so much. It was great to be with you.
S1: That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
