S1: Hey there , San Diego. It's Andrew Bracken in for Jade Hyneman. On today's show , we hear about an investigation into how bodies donated to UC ISD's body donation program ended up being used by the military and not medical research , as some donor families expected. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. For years , families donated their loved ones bodies to UC San Diego as part of its body donation program for the purpose of medical and scientific research. But records obtained by Times of San Diego found that the university sent hundreds of bodies to the military without the donors and families knowledge. This follows up on a series of investigations by student journalists at UCSD and the University of Southern California that looked into the cadaver program , and I'm joined by two of the reporters who covered the story. Thomas Murphy and Sasha Rue. Thomas. Sasha. Welcome back.
S2: Hi there. Andrew. Thank you for having us back.
S1: Sasha , welcome to you.
S3: Thank you so much for having us.
S1: Great to have you here. So , Sasha. You know , before we get into the details of this story , this all started with a months long investigation that found the University of Southern California was selling the bodies. It was loaned by UC San Diego to the US Navy and in turn , the Israel Defense Forces. How did you first come across the story?
S3: Um , I was at Annenberg Media's investigation desk , um , at USC , and , um , my editor told me that we got a tip about our university using donor bodies for an IDF training program , uh , over a year ago at this point last October. And , um , that was something I immediately wanted to look into. And we started investigating , and we got back one contract that mentioned the University of San Diego or the UC San Diego in it. And , um , from there it revealed that the source of most of the bodies was UCSD. So we continued on that reporting this year.
S1: And , Thomas , that kind of brought you into it on to collaborate on this investigation. Um , how did you want to dig into that connection between UCSD body donation program and the military?
S2: Um , let's see. Well , the main reason that I was brought in was just because , uh , as student reporters over at USC , uh , everybody else in that team really didn't have the leverage to be able to ask questions of the UC system. So that was the main way that I was brought in. That was my , uh , I suppose primary focus with the investigation was just getting answers for everybody involved on my side. So that was my primary focus.
S1: But and you've since uncovered the contracts that revealed how many bodies the university loaned , you know , over a period of time. What did you find?
S2: Well , we found a lot of interesting stuff. I think the , the most important thing is that they're not necessarily contracts. What these are are internal records from the school's anatomical Materials Committee , which basically oversees what bodies leave the school for which purposes. So all of our data is coming from their own records and their meeting minutes from that period of time.
S1: And were they charging for these loans? Like how did the how did the loans work?
S2: Yes , they do charge for loans. Uh let's see. So UC San Diego has a in essence , a fee menu for whole bodies and different body parts. To give you an example of what they would have been charging the military in this case , for a whole cadaver. UCSD charges $2,900 to its own internal programs , who would use it for medical education and research. $3,357 to outside educational institutions such as San Diego State University or Point Loma Nazarene , and $4,205 to industry organizations. Records. Since 2018 , actual payment contracts show that UCSD charged the military the educational rates of that 3000 figure.
S1: And Sasha , how are the cadavers used by the military exactly? What did you find out there?
S3: Um , well , we don't know the specifics , but in general , um , UCSD gives donor bodies to primarily the Navy because they're very close to Balboa Park. And , um , they use them for things like surface and special warfare training , emergency medicine , general surgery , tactical combat casualty courses. Um , and some of the bodies also want to train forward surgical teams from the Israel Defense Forces. Um , so they'll try to prepare combat medics for battlefield violence by , uh , in the IDF's case , simulating gunshot wounds , blast wounds on donor bodies for these paramedics to or these combat medics to try to repair them. So , um , when we asked the universities how they create these injuries on the bodies , they would not answer. And we're still looking into that today.
S1: Um , Thomas , I mean , I think one major question is how much did the donors and their families really know about how the bodies would be used for military training purposes? Is that disclosed , you know , upon donation or how does that work?
S2: Uh , it's a little difficult to say for 100% certainty that every single body donor was completely unaware of this. It's entirely possible that one of the program employees mentioned it offhandedly in conversation , but based off of USDA's own contracts and their donor application , there is no mention of military use , nor any of the processes involved , like Sasha was talking about with the simulation of gunshot wounds or blast injuries for the bodies used in the IDF program. They also used a process called perfusion , which essentially takes a recently deceased and preserved body , hooks it up to a machine that pumps it with fake blood to simulate a pulse , which would make those simulated wounds bleed realistically.
S1: Well , um , Sasha , for this story with Times of San Diego , you spoke to one family whose mother , um , donated her body for research to tell us about that family.
S3: Um , yes. Uh , we got in contact with the Emperor's , um , after we published our initial investigation as students , and we've been in contact for a long time , and they were one of the families that had no idea about the possibility of military use. So their mother and grandmother , um , was always a very antiwar , um , person. And that's why they felt so betrayed , because they had several phone conversations with the director of the body donation program , um , who reassured them that their grandmother would be treated well and the possibility of her body leaving the university , especially going to , um , the US military or the Israeli military was never told to them , even though at the time the majority of whole body allocations , um , were going to the military. So they've shared their story and , um , they're continuing to look for ways to demand transparency from the program.
S1: And you've spoken with other families with similar stories as well. Thomas , what what struck you know , what struck you about what they shared?
S2: I think what struck me is that all of these conversations that I've had with these families have been very difficult. There's a very there's a very powerful sense of pain and betrayal that they've all shared. Um , and it's it's kind of heartbreaking , honestly , especially after you've seen it repeat so many times with so many different families. I think they're just shocked. It takes the final memory of their loved one , which was at what they thought was an altruistic choice of giving their body to advance medical research or train future doctors , a kind of Mars. That final memory that they have of them. It doesn't change how they feel about their loved one , but it does. It's just a very difficult thing to grapple with. And I think a lot of families , uh , really don't know how. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. No , I imagine that's that's quite painful. Sasha. I mean , anything else jump out to you about this experience of what families have gone through?
S3: Um , I've been a bit surprised at the university's decision to not acknowledge the families. Um , the universities have , uh , discontinued the IDF program recently because of , like , logistical errors that made it impossible to continue. Um , and when they were addressing the discontinuation of the program , they said this was not in any way a reaction to protest groups being upset about our involvement with the IDF. Um , and making the the focus about like , student protesters , um , just sort of skips over the fact that many , if not most , of the voices who are the strongest in opposition were family members of people who donated. Um , and yeah , it just , uh , really sticks with me that they have yet to be , um , more directly addressed. And I hope that they can get some answers soon.
S1: Thomas , how have UC San Diego and UC San Diego Health responded?
S2: Well , I have a quote right in front of me here. I think it's the most emblematic of this , this whole situation. Um , on October 7th , a spokesperson for UC health wrote to us in response to an inquiry , quote , UC health is proud of its support for medical education of US military healthcare professionals. Um , one that's not addressing the connection with the Israeli Defense Forces. I'm not sure any of their responses have explicitly mentioned the IDF , so not a whole lot of transparency there , but also , again , what Sasha is saying , they're really not directly addressing the families and the feelings of pain that we've seen in these many conversations.
S1: And Sasha , what about USC? You kind of touched on this just overlooking the families. But what has his said regarding this , you know , contract with the military?
S3: Um , they've said similar things that , um , the only reason they couldn't continue their contract with the IDF is because they could no longer supply enough bodies for the program. Um , they never said , um , we hear that families think that this is unethical or this isn't how they wanted the university to act. Um , so the I think both of the universities have basically made it very clear that they're proud to partner with the American military , the Israeli military. Um , yeah.
S1: You were both featured in a documentary by AJ plus that also covered the story and its impact on families. What's been the reception to that investigation? Thomas.
S2: Uh , I think the reception was it was interesting because we were able to connect with a few new families through that. It was a very widespread report. Um , I think we ran the numbers on it a while back , something like 10 million views , something along those lines. But I think the most impressive thing that I didn't expect , uh , in the process of making the whole documentary , was the public response of people saying , uh , protect these student journalists , or they're doing incredible work , really just a lot of outpouring of support for us specifically , which I , I didn't expect. I thought it'd be focused entirely on the families. So it was nice to have that public backing , I suppose.
S1: Sacha , what about you? I mean , what's what's been the reaction to your reporting?
S3: Um , I think a lot of people were just very surprised because you hear about donating your body to science. And I think a lot of people just have trust in a university to do right by that agreement. Um , um , or at least they don't imagine the military would be involved. I think they might expect that from a private company. But the shock around academic institutions being , um , accepting loan fees for donor bodies and just not sharing any of that , it was a big surprise. Um , and yeah , I think a lot of people who are already signed up to donate their bodies reached out and told us , I don't want to move forward unless I can get a guarantee that my body won't be used for the military. And , um , they've ultimately just had to pull out of the programs because you weren't really allowed to ask for that kind of exception at the moment. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. Um , you know , one interesting thing about the story , it was the product , you know , a collaboration between two student run outlets. Um , you know , what do you think that says about just the role of student journalism and what it has to play in our society today? Thomas.
S2: I think it's incredibly important , the role of student journalism. Uh , it goes hand in hand with local nonprofit journalism , really , because it's people who are deeply embedded in their communities doing on the ground , really impactful reporting. And sometimes it doesn't , uh , spread out beyond your community. And that's okay. But when it does and it reveals something of this scale , I think it really shows the value that these small newsrooms play for society at large.
S1: Sasha , you mentioned how this , you know , your investigation is ongoing. What will you be looking into next?
S3: Um , we're continuing to look into UC San Diego's body donation program and , um , USC as well. We're very interested in all of the contracts and fees collected from the Department of Defense. Um , and it's unclear to us at the moment whether the university has retained all of those contracts , but we're hoping to publish a follow up in the , um , Times of San Diego relatively soon. And we're also hoping to continue to speak to any donor families if they're interested in talking to us.
S1: Well , we'll include a link to your reporting on KPBS , and keep an eye out for that reporting. One note before we go , earlier , we mentioned UC San Diego Health. We met UC health and its response to the story. I've been speaking with freelance journalists Thomas Murphy and Sasha Rue. We'll link to their reporting again at CFPB. Thomas , Sasha , thanks so much for being here.
S2: Thank you for having us.
S3: Thank you for having us.
S4: That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
