S1: Welcome in San Diego. I'm Andrew Bowen , filling in for Jade Hindman on today's show. The Trump administration may look to San Diego for how to prosecute anti-fascists. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. In late September , President Donald Trump issued an executive order calling Antifa a , quote , domestic terrorist organization. Experts say the order is on shaky legal grounds and Antifa , short for anti-fascist , is less an organization than an ideology. Still , the Trump administration appears eager to go after those it labels Antifa with criminal prosecutions , and San Diego could provide a roadmap. Joining me to talk about his latest reporting is Alex Riggins. He covers federal courts and law enforcement for the San Diego Union Tribune. Alex , welcome to midday.
S2: Thank you very much for having me.
S1: So let's start with some definitions. You write Antifa. Anti-fascism has its roots in Europe in the time between World War one and World War two. How did Antifa exist back then , and how should we understand it today ? Right.
S2: So back in in Europe , you know , anti anti-fascists , uh , you know , basically oppose the the rising fascist fascism of that day in Spain , in Germany and elsewhere. Um , and kind of what they did was , was they met force with force. Right. The it wasn't always just , uh , you know , protests and , uh , you know , free speech. It was it was , it was getting out in the streets and meeting force with force. Um , that's that's kind of the , you know , what what Antifa now here in the US in 2025 and in the last few years has done as well. That's what they've seen their role as is. Um , you know , other people can can march and kind of use their First Amendment rights to speak out. And a lot of a lot of people who consider themselves Antifa , um , you know , they see their role as , as using direct action. They call it , uh , they get out in the streets and they're willing to fight people who they view as fascists , whether that be police officers , whether that be , you know , right wing groups , uh , whoever that is , uh , they're they're willing to kind of go out there and , um , you know , use some use some force , use some , uh , physical violence , uh , when , when they believe it's necessary.
S1: And core to this ideology is a belief that if more people in Europe before World War Two had organized and met this rising fascist movement with force , perhaps we wouldn't have ended up with Nazism and the Holocaust.
S2: You know , they feel like , uh , sometimes when the other side is using force , uh , you know , their , their side needs to use it as well. So that was , that was kind of the view of the anti-fascists , uh , you know , in Europe , kind of between the world wars and after as well. And , and that's the view of , of I won't say all but but many people who are considered anti-fascists or antifa , uh , you know , nowadays.
S1: So let's get into the case out of San Diego. We're setting the scene here. It's January 9th , 2021 , three days after Trump supporters stormed the Capitol in Washington , D.C. , in an effort to overturn the election , there was a pro-Trump rally planned in Pacific Beach , and there were counter demonstrators who wanted to stop it.
S2: And that's really important context to understand. This was not this was not just a singular , singular event. This was not just a one off , you know , the political climate at that time. Following the the riot on January 6th , the Capitol was was really tense. And so , um , you know , this this Patriot March was planned for here in San Diego. Uh , there was some reporting that at least five people who had been at the Capitol , uh , were also there in Pacific Beach that day. Um , there was , you know , documented members of , of right wing extremist groups , uh , there that day. And then there was also , uh , you know , these these people who consider themselves antifa anti-fascists , and they were there to , uh , basically oppose , uh , this Patriot march. And they again , we're we're we're ready and willing to use , uh , you know , violence if necessary. Um , not not not guns or anything like that , but but they do come prepared with , uh , with bear spray , with mace , with batons , um , and are ready to , to fight people who , who they view as fascists. And so that's what happened that day. Um , there were skirmishes near the boardwalk , along the beach , in the streets , um , sometimes between kind of the the , you know , Trump supporters and the Antifa members and a few times between Antifa and , uh , just other people on the beach who weren't necessarily part of the demonstration. And then , um , as well as a couple instances of , uh , the Trump supporters , you know , attacking people , um , who they viewed as opponents who are not part of these Antifa groups. So there was there was a lot of violence that day. But what San Diego prosecutors said , and what they ended up proving in court , was that most of that violence that day was was , uh , was committed by these , uh , Antifa counterprotesters.
S1: I actually covered that demonstration for KPBS. I remember the counter-protesters spraying pepper spray on Trump supporters. I remember seeing punches being thrown , and there was a moment when the Antifa side had gathered to sort of Regroup. And there was a man there speaking to a crowd , and he said something to the effect of this is how you deal with fascists. Force is the only thing that they will understand and nothing else will stop them. After that violence , San Diego County District Attorney Summer Stephan charged 11 people with conspiracy to riot , and she labeled them as Antifa supporters. Walk us through that case and how it turned out.
S2: Yeah , so the San Diego Police Department spent nearly a year investigating these , uh , you know , these these black clad protesters who had showed up that day in Pacific Beach. Um , and in December 2021 , uh , so about 11 months after that Patriot march in Pacific Beach , um , you know , they , they , they acted they , they raided the residences of these individuals , mostly young men. Um , they seized phones. They seized , you know , clothing that they believed had been worn that day. Anything else like that ? And they put together this really large prosecution. Um , the , the main charge , as you mentioned , was conspiracy to riot. And then , you know , defendants were charged individually with , uh , with individual acts that they committed that day. Um , you know , you know , there was there was kind of little skirmishes here and there throughout the day. And , uh , you know , the , the investigators and the prosecution went through and , and tried to determine , okay , who was involved in this one and who was involved in that one. And then they charge those people. Um , and ultimately , uh , nine of the defendants , um , pleaded guilty to charges and two went to trial and were convicted. Um , they were acquitted on some of the charges , but they were convicted on , on the main one on the conspiracy to riot. Um , and one of the things that the , uh , that the judge noted , uh , during sentencing of , of eight of those defendants last year and they were the last eight sentencing in the case , um , was that all of them had either pleaded guilty or been convicted of crimes for the benefit of Antifa , which was kind of the key here. Um , this was the first prosecution nationwide , and the district attorney touted it as such. Uh , that went after , uh , you know , Antifa as a group. And , and they all pleaded guilty to or were convicted of committing crimes for the benefit of Antifa.
S1: You interviewed one of the defendants , a man named Joe Gaskins. He's now 25. He was 19 at the time of the violence in Pacific Beach. Tell us about his motivations that day and how he feels about his actions now. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. So so Joe is half white and half black. He grew up , uh , part of his childhood in Pacific Beach. And he felt like , you know , these people that were going out there that day to to , you know , support Trump , uh , you know , in this , in this really kind of really tense time when , you know , it was unclear if , you know , Trump was going to give up the white House. And you know , his unclear if , you know , if there's going to be a transition of power. You know , he felt really strongly that , um , you know , these people going out to protest , uh , you know , in support of Trump that day were fascists. And so , you know , he felt as someone who grew up there and someone who , you know , said he wants to , you know , make Pacific Beach in San Diego a place that's safe for people that look like him , you know , mixed race. Um , he felt the need to go out there and , and oppose it. And of course , you know , at the time he's 19 and he acknowledges , like , look , I was I was young , I was 19 and and , uh , you know , what he viewed as injustice made his blood boil. He told me. And so , you know , he went out there and and did with what he thought he needed to do. He acknowledges now that , um , you know , he he doesn't want to be a violent person , and he and he doesn't condone violence. Um , but at the time , as a , you know , kind of an angry 19 year old seeing what was going on. Uh , he felt that that was the right thing to do. Um , he's kind of mixed feelings now. You know , he feels like he was justified based on some of the things that have been happening during the second Trump administration with , uh , you know , immigration enforcement and the military in the streets. And , um , you know , some of the things that he sees happening now. He feels , uh , you know , almost vindicated. Um , but at the same time , he acknowledges that , you know , maybe , maybe violence in that instance , you know , wasn't wasn't the right way to go about it.
S1: So let's fast forward to today. President Trump has signed an executive order calling Antifa a domestic terrorist organization. There was a roundtable that the Trump administration held comparing Antifa , you know , saying it has the same organizational level as Hamas and ISIS and Hezbollah. What did legal experts that you interviewed have to say about this executive order and its legality ? Yeah.
S2: So the experts I spoke to said , And and you know , if you look in the law as well , there's , there's there's no such thing as a domestic terrorist organization. Uh , you know , designation. There's no list of domestic terrorist organizations. Um , there is such a list for foreign terrorist organizations. Right. We all know ISIS and al Qaeda , and and now , you know , more recently , the Trump administration has has added Mexican and South American , uh , you know , groups , what they call narco terrorists. Um , the US does keep a list of foreign terrorist organizations. The US does not and never has kept a list of domestic terrorist organizations. Um , now someone can commit an act that's considered domestic terrorism , right ? Um , you know , there's been there's been left wing , uh , you know , ecological radicals. There's been , you know , obviously KKK , you know , uh , Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City , right ? There's there can be domestic terrorism , but the US just simply does not keep a list of , uh , designated domestic terrorist organizations. And so , you know what ? They're this this executive order designating Antifa as a domestic terrorist organization has no legal consequences. But as some of the experts I spoke to said , it obviously does have political consequences , right ? There could be people who are afraid to speak out , are afraid to go to protests , um , you know , afraid to exercise their First Amendment free speech rights because they could be afraid of of being lumped in with Antifa and and then consider a domestic terrorist and all of the , you know , consequences that could come with that.
S1: And we should clarify , Antifa does not have the sophistication or the organization of a group like ISIS or Hamas. Why do you think Trump is fixating on Antifa now in 2025 ? Yeah.
S2: So , I mean , I think there's a few reasons , uh , you know , it's always kind of been the boogeyman for him. In May 2020 during the George George Floyd protests. He , uh , he tweeted at the time that he was going to do this , that he was going to designate them a domestic terrorist organization. Um , but what really , I think what I think really prompted this was the was the killing of Charlie Kirk , the conservative , um , you know , social media influencer , uh , political figure in Utah. Um , after that , you know , there's obviously a lot of discussion about political violence and which side uses it and all of that. And , um , and so Antifa just became kind of this catch all term for left wing political violence. Um , a few days after this executive order , there was another , uh , you know , the president signed a national security memorandum , uh , targeting , you know , a much wider group of political organizations and saying they should be investigated for political violence and possibly terrorism. Um , and so and that that order or that , uh , memorandum specifically mentioned Charlie Kirk's killing , the attempted assassination. Assassinations of of President Trump and and so that was that seems like really the , um , you know , the motivating factor now and as you said , Antifa from everything I know from this , from this case here in San Diego , from the experts I've spoken to , Antifa is not a well-run , well-financed organization. There are claims by Trump and his cabinet that they are , um , but they have not provided evidence of those claims. Uh , one of the things that Trump said was that the protesters have nice signs with , uh , nice wooden handles and printed on , on expensive paper. And so that's a , that's a evidence that they're , that they're well-financed , um , which is obviously just a ridiculous claim to make. Uh , but but these claims that they're , uh , you know , really well run well organized and have this financial backing , uh , I just haven't seen it anywhere. And especially in this San Diego case , That just wasn't the case. There was. There was no such financing. Um , of these individuals here.
S1: And briefly , Alex , how might the Trump administration look to this case out of Pacific Beach for guidance on future prosecutions ? Yeah.
S2: I mean , I think the biggest thing is just , um , you know , the way that they were able to find the the private chats of these individuals , right. So in the days leading up to this , uh , patriot march , you know , they , they had private chats going and some and some public social media posts as well. Um , but they had these private chats going. One was , uh , titled SD Flash Bash , which basically , you know , they wanted to bash fascists. Um , you know , that that was the title of it. And they spoke about , you know , wanting to get out in the street and , and fight these people. Um , and so just , just , you know , if , if , uh , law enforcement and prosecutors are able to , you know , get warrants to search the phones of of , you know , Antifa protesters. Then they may be able to link them with others. Right. And put together some sort of conspiracy case. Um , and so I think I think that would be kind of the main way they could do it. They can look for financial ties. Um , in that I just don't think that they would find them. And and just one quick thing , you know , I spoke to a defense attorney who represented one of the defendants at trial. Um , and his thing was , you know , he said basically these individuals who were out there that day in Pacific Beach , uh , both on the right and the left. I mean , they'd been at protests before fighting each other. Um , this wasn't the first time. And he said he described it as almost like an amateur sport for them. Uh , you know , more like a barroom brawl than than anything , you know , even approaching terrorism. Like , these were people that knew each other. They didn't like each other. They knew where they could find each other , to fight each other. And that's what they did that day in Pacific Beach. Um , but I do think , you know , kind of the being able to put together the organization. Um , you know , as far as , you know , texting and messaging. Yeah. Uh , to go to these is probably the the clearest way that , you know , others could look at this case.
S1: Um , I've been speaking with Alex Riggins. He covers federal courts and federal law enforcement for the San Diego Union-Tribune. Alex. Thank you.
S2: Thanks very much for having me.
S1: And that's our show for today. I'm your host , Andrew Bowen , in for Jade Hindman. Thanks for listening to Midday Edition. Have a great day.
