S1: Welcome in San Diego , it's Jade Hindman. On today's show , we'll take a deep dive into the manosphere , a toxic subculture created online. This is KPBS Midday Edition , connecting our communities through conversation. As extremist groups become part of the political mainstream , conspiracy theories and hateful rhetoric fuel vitriol and distrust. A new series of documentary shorts out of USA today looks into why those fringe movements have gained traction. It's called Extremely Normal , and the first episode is all about the manosphere. It's a growing community united by male supremacist ideologies , and it's at a time when young men are experiencing depression and suicide at record highs. Joining me to talk about this is Will Carlos. He covers extremism and emerging issues for USA today. Will welcome.
S2: Thanks for having me on.
S1:
S2: It's it's sort of grown out of this movement that was at one point called the men's rights movement. And the manosphere is it's sort of not a it's not a place or a thing , really. It's more of a brand , I guess , and it's kind of a collection of everything from spaces online where people go on and talk about this stuff to influencers , social media , they've kind of been collectively termed the manosphere , and that that term is used essentially for as you as you pointed out in your intro for kind of toxic masculinity online masquerading as self-help for for young men. Hmm.
S1: Well , when we talk about the manosphere , Andrew Tate comes to a lot of people's minds.
S2: He's sort of the most popular figure. Andrew Tate's a former champion kickboxer. He's he's half English , half American , like me , incidentally. And he , um , uh , basically made his money in doing sort of nefarious things online. He had a porn webcam business for a long time. He's also been accused of human trafficking and all sorts of other crimes. He used to live in Romania. Uh , his current whereabouts are unknown , but he's mainly become famous as this kind of very charismatic , very sort of well-dressed , flying around in private jets the whole time. And he spews these ideas of of both kind of self-help , you know , do your sit ups , uh , drink lots of water , don't drink alcohol. But then he mixes it in with a whole bunch of of anti-women hate. I wouldn't say anti-woman. I'd say more , um , sort of women and men's property , that sort of thing. Women are somewhat inferior to men. And he he that's that's kind of a big part of what he sells , I guess.
S1: Sounds hateful to me. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. It's not my cup of tea , but , uh , he's got millions and millions and millions of followers around the around the world. Wow.
S1: Wow.
S2: And , you know , extremist groups have always appealed to young men in kind of times of need. Right. It's when young men are down and they don't have friends. There may be struggling at school. They're struggling at home. That's when the extremist groups kind of move in. And that's what we've seen with the manosphere. Basically , you have right now in America what a lot of experts call a real crisis of mental health among young men. I'm sure you've covered it on your show and in other programming. Um , men are young. men are , you know , experiencing levels of depression and suicide at really unprecedented levels right now. And as we as we point out in the documentary , these manosphere influencers have essentially stepped into this void. They sort of offer both a scapegoat and an escape route to these young men. They come in with these ideas. You know , it's not your fault. It's it's kind of society. It's it's the matrix. As Andrew Tate likes to say , mainstream media , all of these influences are what's ruining your life. And we can give you the key to fix it. Mm.
S1: Mm.
S2: I mean , I think it's it's a cross between the accessibility. I mean , if you anyone who has a teenager at home knows that , you know , they've got the earbuds in a lot of the time , right ? They've got headphones on. So kids are listening to stuff all the time and and all the data shows us that kids are listening to podcasts , a lot of podcasts. They still listen to music , obviously , but podcasts have basically replaced radio and they've replaced , you know , to a certain extent , have not replaced , but have taken a big chunk out of online video streaming. So , you know , podcasting is something you can do whether you're just kind of riding the bus to school or sitting in classroom or flipping burgers at a at a Burger King , if that's your job. You know , it's something that you can do anywhere. And so , um , they're immensely popular among both young men and particularly young men , but also young women. Wow.
S1: Wow. Well , your reporting took you to an MMA gym in Fontana , California.
S2: And yes , it took me to Fontana , California. And as I say in the documentary , I kind of expected to sit down with these like nasty , misogynistic , openly kind of vitriolic young men. And actually what I found was some quite thoughtful. We had some quite thought provoking debate. Now they did. They were fans of Andrew Tate , but they pushed back on both my characterization of what he said and some of the things he said. But they also said , look , you know , we don't agree with that stuff. We we like most of what he says , but we don't like it when he talks badly about women. And that's at least what they said while the cameras were pointing at them. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. And you actually reached out to Andrew Tate for this series and he declined an interview. He did send you a long statement , though.
S2: But it's the the essence was what Andrew Tate always says. You know , I'm mischaracterized by the media. Um , this what even is misogyny ? I have my views on on men and women and and he basically talked about how He's only against women who are denigrating or putting down men , and that he's not against women , per se. Um , and then there was some other kind of bizarre stuff , but it was it was a it was a long statement. Yeah. Interesting.
S1: Interesting. Um , so then here's my question. Like in the manosphere , where do women fit in to society.
S2: In a sort of traditional gender role ? I think is the best way to say it. So obviously , you know , not everybody in the manosphere believes the same thing , but but the I guess , the most kind of monolithic , the most prevalent viewpoint is essentially that women belong at home and belong looking after children and , and kind of taking care of the house and looking after their husband. And then the husband goes out and makes the money. That's how that's how these men , that's what these men preach. And and that's the sort of image that they're selling to young men. It's like we need to go back to this kind of 1950s , 1960s bucolic era where men went out and worked and came home and the house was sparkling and the women were at home waiting for them. That's that's sort of the ideal that they're selling. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. Interesting. And so I'm curious because you you ended up at a MMA gym.
S2: I mean , essentially , I wanted to find young men who would talk to me , and I wanted to find young men who were of this ilk who were in this kind of world. And there is a big crossover between the world of MMA , the world of kind of combat sports and the manosphere. Um , you know , Andrew Tate's a former MMA fighter. A lot of these , a lot of these podcasters , a lot of these influencers are doing some sort of MMA , some sort of physical fitness in general. But , but , but but more specifically MMA. So it just kind of like , you know , when , you know , as a reporter , you go where the story is. And I wanted to find those sources , and that seemed like a very likely kind of pool to dive into. Interesting.
S1: Interesting. There's you mentioned the the overlap that that happens with MMA. But there's also this overlap that happens with active club networks. Um can you talk a bit about that.
S2: Jim was part of an active club. And for the listeners , you know , active clubs have become a sort of a de facto gathering space , essentially for for young , far right Americans , mainly young men. So these are active clubs. They're essentially fight clubs where guys get together and train and then spar and but they've also taken on a lot of them. Not all of them. Look , I mean , if you're if your child's going into an MMA gym , the chances are it could be absolutely nothing to do with this. But there is a subset of these gyms that are very and very specifically if they're labeled active clubs that are , uh , I'd say sort of neofascist in nature. They're they're , you know , interested in things like white supremacy. They're interested in the far right and far right viewpoints , and they've become grew out of Southern California , by the way , this this whole movement. And they've become , as I say , this kind of de facto gathering space for young Nazis , essentially.
S1: Why the training , you know , the combat training and all of that.
S2: I think it's I mean , that's kind of always gone hand in hand with white supremacy and with with sort of neo fascism. That's always been a big part of it. It's like , you've got to be physically strong. You've got to be physically fit. I mean , at a very basic level , it's kind of preparing for the race war or the , the forthcoming , you know , Armageddon. So that's and but I think it's more than that. It's also , you know , these guys preach that , that you have to , uh , in order to kind of take care of your mind and become like a free thinker. You have to have a healthy body , you know , healthy body , healthy mind , which not many of us can argue with in a weird kind of way , but they've obviously used it to. To then to then poison young men with their with their hateful beliefs.
S1: It's interesting because anytime I've talked to you about extremism , there's always that this seemingly innocent idea that comes into the picture. And then people are sort of radicalized by other ideas attached to it , whether it's Christianity or it's health and fitness and the manosphere and and neo-Nazis. I mean , there's always something that that's there that seemingly innocently lures people in.
S2: That's the game plan. I mean , that's how extremist groups operate. I mean , it goes right back to the sort of skinhead gangs of the 1980s and obviously going right back to sort of the fascists of the 30s. I mean , they they essentially offer , uh , well , let's let's keep it within the manosphere , for example. One of the difficulties about reporting on the manosphere and making a documentary about them is that , look , 90% of what people like Andrew Tate say makes perfect sense. You know , it's it's make your bed. It's get up in the morning. It's don't drink alcohol. It's take good care of yourself. It's all things that any sort of self-help person is , is preaching. It's the 10% where it gets different. Right ? And that's always , as I say , been the game plan of extremists. They bring you in with the normality. They bring you in with the stuff that no one can argue with. And then they slip in the anti-Semitism , they slip in the white supremacy , and they kind of they start to teach you that. And before you know it , like you're believing that as strongly as you're believing , I need to drink eight cups of water a day.
S1:
S2: And in the research , you know , one of the things we wanted to do with this documentary was to offer some solutions and to offer a little bit of hope. And so we actually ended up up in Detroit with a guy called Jason Wilson , who's a very influential. He hates to call himself an influencer , but , I mean , the guy's got 1.6 million followers. You know , he's he's out there every day on social media kind of teaching young men both physical fitness and strength and everything else , all of the kind of good , I guess , sort of traditional masculine stuff , if you like , or just healthy stuff. But then he's not going into he's he's a supporter of women. He doesn't go into the kind of vitriol against women. He's very , uh , very much about lifting women up and , um , you know , kind of a feminist and just essentially just doesn't slip into the nastiness that you see with some of the other influencers. But I will stress , I mean , that's just one guy doing , I think , good work out there that most people can support. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Well , this is just the first episode of yours about the manosphere. Uh , in a series of documentary shorts that you're producing.
S2: Uh , Holocaust denial and Holocaust denial as a as a sort of a mainstream topic of conversation among young people , which is bizarre and scary. And I thought we'd figured that out , but evidently we haven't. I think we might see future shows on on active clubs. Possibly. We're looking at possibly doing something on , on the way that we debate and discuss things online and how that's fundamentally changed and how that's also fundamentally affecting politics , particularly among young people. And I think we could be doing something on the emergent political violence as well as we saw with the shooting of of Charlie Kirk and of course , the , the , the , the years of violence that precluded that , too. So , yeah , we will if if it follows this arc from the fringes to the mainstream , then we're interested in it. And I'd love to hear from from listeners as well if they have any. Any ideas for for something that fits into that.
S1: Oh , absolutely. Well , I can't wait to see what else comes of this project. I've been speaking with Will Carlos. He covers extremism and emerging issues for USA today. His new series is called Extremely Normal and you can check it out at USA TODAY.com. Also , if you have any ideas to send a will , you can always email them to midday at KPBS. Well , thank you so much.
S2: Thank you.
S1: That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
