THIS IS KPBS MIDDAY EDTION I MAUREEN CAVANAUGH. BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA MADE ANOTHER BIG CHANGE OF POLICY LAST WEEK. AFTER YEARS OF DEFENDING ITS POLICY AGAINST GAY TROOP LEADERS, THE BOY SCOUTS NATIONAL BOARD VOTED TO AND THAT BAND. THE DECISION WAS GREETED BY MANY AS ANOTHER STEP TOWARD EQUALITY FOR BOTH THE SCOUTS AND THE LGBT COMMUNITY. BUT THE SCOUTS NATIONAL BOARD'S EDITION -- EDITION ALLOWS TROOPS ASSOCIATED WITH RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS TO CONTINUE TO USE THEIR BELIEFS AS A CRITERIA FOR SELECTING ADULT LEADERS WHICH MEANS THEY MAY STILL BAN GAYS AS SCOUT LEADERS. JOINING ME ARE CHANCE CORE, HE IS AN EAGLE SCOUT AND STUDENT AT PRANCER COLLEGE TWO YEARS AGO HE WROTE AN OP-ED IN THE SAN DIEGO UNION TRIBUNE IN SUPPORT OF DAYS IN SCOUTING AND CHANCE, WELCOME BACK. GREAT TO BE BACK. STRATEGY IS THE FORMER BOY SCOUT TROOP LEADER AND NOW PRESIDENT OF SCOUTING FOR ALL. WELCOME TO THE SHOW. THANK YOU JACK'S CHANCE, REMIND US IF YOU WOULD OF YOUR HISTORY OF SCOUTING A SAN DIEGO AND WHEN YOU CAME OUT PUBLICLY IN SUPPORT OF A ALLOWING GAY SCOUTS. I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN SCOUTING FOR OVER 10 YEARS. I STILL REMEMBER MY FIRST CUB SCOUT MEETING WITH MY DAD WHEN I WAS IN FIRST GRADE AND I STUCK WITH THE ORGANIZATION FOR YEARS AFTER THAT. IN 2012 I EARN MY EAGLE SCOUT BADGE AND ONE YEAR LATER THERE WAS A LOT OF POLITICAL DISCUSSION GOING ON ABOUT POLICY CHANGES WITHIN THE ORGANIZATION. SO I DECIDED THAT BECAUSE I WAS GAY, I WANTED TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE CONVERSATION SO I ENDED UP PUBLISHING THE EDITORIAL IN THE TRIBUNE AND WAS ASKED BY MY SCOUTMASTER TO LEAVE THE ORGANIZATION. THAT WAS THE RESULT BACK THEN OF WHEN YOU ACTUALLY CAME OUT AS A GAY SCOUT AND BASICALLY ADVOCATED FOR GAYS TO BE ALLOWED IN SCOUTING. WHAT ABOUT THE MEMBERS OF USED -- OF YOUR TROOP? WITH A SUPPORTIVE AT ALL? IT'S A MIXED BAG AND A LOT OF TROOPS. IN MY TROOP I RECEIVED A LOT OF SUPPORT FROM ADULT LEADERS. I WAS A SPECIALLY SCOUTS WHO FELT IT WAS COMPLETELY UNFAIR I HAD BEEN REMOVED FROM MY TRUE. I THINK THAT IS A GENERATIONAL CHANGE WE WILL SEE A LOT OF YOUNGER PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE ORGANIZATION DON'T SEE THIS AS AN ISSUE AND SO I THINK THAT IS PART OF WHAT HAS BEEN DRIVING CHANGE PICTURE OF ME, MY TROOP I HAVE RECEIVED A LOT OF SUPPORT AND PRAISE FROM PEOPLE AND I DEFINITELY FEEL MY TROOP HAS BEEN A PART OF MY FAMILY AND SO I'M THANKFUL FOR THAT. NOW, HOWARD, ABOUT ONE YEAR AND A HALF AGO THE BAN ON GAY SCOUTS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WITH LIFTED BUT THE BAN REMAINED ON HAVING GAY SCOUT LEADERS. WHERE DID MOST OF THE RESISTANCE COME FROM FOR ALLOWING GAY TROOP LEADERS? THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN RESISTANCE TO GAYS IN SCOUTING FROM THE TIME THE MORMONS STEPPED IN AND CREATED THE SITUATION. IT WAS MAINLY THE ADULTS THAT THEY WERE AFTER AND IT EXPANDED TO THE KIDS. AND THAT'S WHEN YOU TRACE IT BACK TO AN WHAT DATES ARE WE TALKING? YES. I SPENT 55+ YEARS IN SCOUTING AS OF THE YEAR 2000 AND I STARTED AS A CUB SCOUT IN 1945 AND CAME UP THROUGH THE ROUNDS& MY EAGLE IN 1952. THERE WAS NO SUCH PROBLEM BACK THEN. BUT AS THE MORMON GAIN MORE SWAY IN SCOUTING BECAUSE THEY OPENED UP A LOT OF TROOPS, THEY DECIDED EVERY BOY SHOULD BE A BOY SCOUT OR CUB SCOUT AND THAT GAVE THEM A LOT OF SWAY. THE FIRST THING THEY DID WAS TO SAY, CAN BREEZE, OVERNIGHT TAMPERING TRIPS WHERE TROOPS COMPETE CANNOT GO TO SUNDAY NOON BECAUSE WE HAVE TO BE IN CHURCH SUNDAY. SO THEY GOT BOY SCOUTS TO CHANGE CAMP BREEZE TO AND SATURDAY NIGHT. IN ALL FAIRNESS, HOWARD, LET'S FACE IT. TROOPS THAT ARE SUPPORTED BY A LOT OF RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS WERE NOT IN FAVOR AND PERHAPS ARE STILL NOT IN FAVOR OF GAY TROOP LEADERS . SO IT WAS A -- ACROSS-THE-BOARD. I WOULD NEVER ASK A CATHOLIC PRIEST TO CHANGES DOCTRINE AND ARGUE WITH POPE OVER WHAT I WANT. THAT WOULD NOT BE FAIR. ALL I HAVE EVER ASKED FOR WAS THAT THERE BE A LOCAL OPTION. IN OTHER WORDS, EXACTLY WHAT IS COMING ON. I HAVE A LETTER THAT I SENT TO DR. GATES IN EARLY JUNE. ROBERT GATES. SUGGESTING THAT. THAT THERE BE ENOUGH SPONSORING ORGANIZATIONS, CHARTERING ORGANIZATIONS THAT WILL ALLOW EVERYBODY TO JOIN. I DO NOT EXPECT A PRIEST -- IF A PRIEST SAYS I ONLY WANT PEOPLE FOR MY PARISH IN THE STROUP, THAT IS OKAY. -- IN MY TROOP. THAT IS OKAY. THAT IS UP TO THEM. IF THEY WANT ONLY THE WHITE PEOPLE IN THE TROOP, THAT IS OKAY. BUT THERE HAS GOT TO BE OTHER ORGANIZATIONS LIKE KNIGHTS OF COLUMBUS AND PARENTS AND TEACHERS ASSOCIATIONS AND OTHER GROUPS THAT WILL ACCEPT EVERYBODY. AND THAT IS WHAT WILL BRING IT BACK TO WHAT IT WAS IN THE 40s AND 50s AND 60s WHEN I WAS HEAVILY INVOLVED IN SCOUTING. I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT. YOU MADE ALLUSION TO THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE BEEN IN SCOUTING 55 YEARS? AS OF THE END OF 1999, THREE MONTHS SHORT OF 55 YEARS OF THE BOY SCOUTS. YOU FOR VERY LONG TIME, HOWARD, YOU SAID YOU KNEW YOU WERE GAY BUT SPENT MOST OF YOUR LIFE HIDING THAT. WHEN DID YOU COME OUT AS A GAY MAN? 1994. AND WHAT DOES THAT DO TO YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE BOY SCOUTS? NOTHING BECAUSE I CAME OUT TO THOSE THAT I WANTED TO COME OUT TO. OKAY JACK'S LIKE MOST PEOPLE, GAY, THEY DON'T GET ON THE RADIO AND SAY HEY, EVERYBODY, I'M GAY. [LAUGHTER] THEY MIGHT TELL A FAMILY MEMBER, TRUSTED FRIEND, AND IS SLOWLY BUILDS. THAT IS WHAT I DID JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE. DID IT HAVE A PROFOUND EFFECT ON WHETHER YOU WOULD BE ALLOWED AS A TROOP LEADER OR CONTINUE YOUR ASSOCIATION WITH THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA? NO, BECAUSE I DIDN'T ACTUALLY TELL ANYBODY IN THE BOY SCOUTS. OKAY. I TOLD OUTSIDE FRIENDS, OUTSIDE FAMILY WHO I WAS INVOLVED WITH BUT I DID NOT GO INTO A COUNSELOR AND SAY HEY, I'M GAY. BUT I WAS NO LONGER TROOP LEADER AT THAT POINT ANYWAY. I WAS TEACHING CPR BECAUSE I WAS A RED HORSE INSTRUCTOR AS WELL SO I WAS TEACHING CPR AND FIRST AID TO SCOUTMASTERS SO THEY COULD TAKE OUTS IN THE WOODS SAFELY AND I WAS TEACHING FIRST AID MERIT BADGE WHICH INCLUDED CPR AND FIRST AID . SO I WOULD HAVE A MIXED GROUP. GOTCHA. IN THE CLASSES. LET ME ASK CHANCE SOMETHING. IN LOOKING BACK BECAUSE WE ARE LOOKING FORWARD WITH THIS DISCUSSION. FOR JUST A MOMENT, LOOKING BACK, DO YOU THINK THIS LONG TIME BAN ON GAYS IN SCOUTING, WHETHER AS MEMBERS OF A TROOP OR TROOP LEADERS HEARD THE ORGANIZATION IN ANY WAY? ABSOLUTELY. I BELIEVE IT HURT THE ORGANIZATION IN A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT WAYS. YOU PUBLICLY HAVE HEARD ABOUT IN THE PAST THREE YEARS, CORPORATE SPONSORSHIPS THAT THE ORGANIZATION HAS LOST. A LOT OF FUNDING HAS GONE AWAY BUT I THINK MORE IMPORTANTLY, IT HAS CREATED AN INSTITUTIONALIZED HOMOPHOBIA AMONG YOUTH AND ADULTS BUT I THINK IT IS UNACCEPTABLE. I WOULD SAY THAT THAT IS ONE POINT WHERE I DISAGREE WITH HOWARD. I DO NOT SEE THIS SO-CALLED LOCAL OPTION AS A FULL VICTORY FOR THE ORGANIZATION. I THINK IT'S A PARTIAL VICTORY. I THINK THAT WHENEVER YOU -- ANY DISCRIMINATION ALLOWED WITHIN THE ORGANIZATION IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT IN LINE WITH SCOUTING'S CORE PRINCIPLES. SO WHY -- I SEE THIS AS A POSITIVE STAFF, I DO HOPE IN THE FUTURE THAT WE CAN WORK TOWARD CLOSING THE GAP ON SOME REMAINING DISCRIMINATIONS. WE CONTACTED SEVERAL SAN DIEGO STOUT TROOPS AFFILIATED WITH RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS IN SAN DIEGO AND WE ASKED THEM TO JOIN US ON THE PROGRAM AND WE GOT NO RESPONSE. HAVE EITHER OF YOU HEARD IF INDEED THERE ARE ANY SCOUT TROOPS THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS IN SAN DIEGO WHO WILL BE ALLOWING GAY PEOPLE TO ACT AS SCOUT LEADERS OR WILL BE OPPOSING IT. HAVE YOU GOTTEN FEEDBACK AT ALL ON THAT, CHANCE? MY SENSE IS THE VAST MAJORITY OF TROOPS ARE GOING TO BE OKAY WITH IT. IT'S REALLY, WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT, SCOUTING IS NOT ABOUT SEXUALITY. IT'S ABOUT BUILDING CHARACTER, INSTILLING MORALS AND YOUNG MEN . SO I THINK TRYING TO INJECT THE ISSUE OF SEXUALITY IS REALLY NOT WHAT SCOUTING IS ABOUT AND MOST PEOPLE WITHIN THE ORGANIZATION RECOGNIZE THAT . SO I AM OPTIMISTIC. I KNOW WE ARE HEARD PUBLICLY FROM THE MORMON CHURCH THAT THEY ARE POSSIBLY CONSIDERING BREAKING THEIR TIES AND SO I THINK THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN. BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT IS REPRESENTATIVE OF THE MAJORITY OF SCOUTS. HOWARD, YOU SAY THIS HAS BEEN A LONG, LONG, HARD FOUGHT BATTLE. TELL US A BIT ABOUT THAT. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN ON THE FRONT LINES OF THIS? WELL, THE MORMON CHURCH STEPPED INTO SCOUTING IN 1975. IN 1978, THEY STARTED TO MAKE CHANGES. I WAS IN SCOUTING AT THE TIME AND I SAW THE CHANGES HAPPENING. I WAS PART OF WHY PG YOUTH PROTECTION GUIDELINES WHEN IT WAS JUST BECOMING INTO THE BOY SCOUTS. I SAW JOKES BEING TOLD WHERE THEY SHOULD NOT BE TOLD I HAVE LISTENED TO ADULTS AROUND A CAMPFIRE TALK ABOUT THINGS THAT IN THE DEAD OF NIGHT, THEIR OWN CHILDREN WHO ARE 50 OR 60 FEET AWAY IN A TENT WILL HEAR, NO MATTER HOW LOW THEY SPEAK ABOUT IT AND STEPPED IN. IT'S NOT A GOOD THING WHEN DISCRIMINATION REARS ITS UGLY FACE. BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU CANNOT TELL A CHURCH OR RELIGION THAT THEY NEED TO CHANGE THEIR DOCTRINE BECAUSE YOU WANT THEM TO. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS TO COME FROM WITHIN THEIR OWN BOUNDARIES. THE CONSERVATIVE JEWISH MOVEMENT HAS NOW OFFICIALLY SAID, RABBIS CAN MARRY TO GAY MEN PROVIDED THEY ARE BOTH JEWISH BECAUSE THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN A REQUIREMENT THAT THEY -- BOTH PEOPLE BE JEWISH IN A MARRIAGE BUT THEY HAVE COME TO THE PARTY. THE UC SEE, UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST HAS COME TO THE PARTY. THEY OPENED UP NEGOTIATIONS WITH OR SCOUTS ABOUT OPENING TROOPS IN THEIR CHURCHES BUT THEY SAID THEY WOULD NOT DISCRIMINATE AND THAT WAS PART OF WHAT BROUGHT THIS ABOUT. THE UU CHURCH HAS COME TO THE PARTY. IT IS HAPPENING BUT THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN FROM WITHIN THE CHURCHES, NOT -- THERE IS NOTHING FROM THE OUTSIDE I CAN DO TO FORCE THE POPE TO CHANGE HIS DOCTRINE AS WELL AS CARDINALS, BISHOPS AND PRIESTS. DO YOU THINK THIS DECISION, CHANCE BY THE NATIONAL BOARD WILL CHANGE SCOUTING? I DO NOT THINK THAT IT WILL BECAUSE I DO NOT THINK THIS IS WHAT SCOUTING HAS EVER BEEN ABOUT. AND I DO NOT THINK ANYONE IS SUGGESTING THAT WE FORCE RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS TO CHANGE THEIR CORE PRINCIPLES. WHAT WE ARE SUGGESTING IS YOU SHOULD HAVE TO BE FRIENDLY, COURTEOUS, KIND. THESE ARE THE PRINCIPLES OF THE SCOUT LAW. AND I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO FOLLOW THOSE AND SO THAT MEANS TREATING PEOPLE WITH RESPECT, REGARDLESS WHETHER THEY ARE GAY, STRAIGHT, LESBIAN. I THINK THAT IS THE BASIC PRINCIPLE. A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, AFTER THE OP ED, YOU WERE ASKED TO LEAVE SCOUTING. CHANCE, WILL YOU BE RETURNING? I CERTAINLY HOPE TO SOMEDAY. I THINK AT THIS POINT I AM STILL IN COLLEGE SO I'M BUSY WITH SCHOOL, BUT IT SOMEDAY I HAVE A SON OF MY OWN, I WILL DEFINITELY LOVE TO INTRODUCE INTO SCOUTING AND ALL OF THE THINGS THAT I BENEFITED FROM. ARE THERE OTHER BATTLES, HOWARD, THAT SCOUTING FOR ALL WOULD LIKE TO FIGHT WHEN IT COMES TO OPENING UP THE ORGANIZATION? I'M THINKING ALLOWING KIDS WITH NO RELIGIOUS POLICE TO BECOME A SCOUT. MAYBE ALLOWING GIRLS IN SCOUTING. THERE ARE STILL A NUMBER OF HURDLES FOR SCOUTING TO REACH THE GOAL, SCOUTING FOR ALL. FIRST, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA. I'VE NEVER SEEN THE GIRL SCOUTS TAKEN BOYS IN THE TROOPS. I DO NOT EXPECT THE BOY SCOUTS TO BE TAKING IN GIRLS AND THEIR TROOPS. I DO EXPECT THAT AFTER THE AGE OF 14 WHEN THEY DO SOME EXPLORE GROUPS, THERE WILL BE GIRLS THAT GET INVOLVED THE GIRLS HAVE NEVER BEEN ALLOWED TO GO FOR THE EAGLE BADGE. THEY CANNOT GO UP THAT ROUTE. AS FAR AS ATHEISTS, THERE ARE TWO THINGS IN THE SCOUT OATH AND SCOUT LAW THAT ARE PREEMPTIVE TO THAT. ON MY HONOR I WILL DO MY DUTY TO GOD AND COUNTRY FOR THE SCOUT OATH AND THE SCOUT LAW, 12 POINTS OF THE SCOUT LAW IS THE SCOUT IS REVEREND. HE FOLLOWS THE RELIGION OF HIS CHOICE AND RESPECTS OTHERS IN THEIR RELIGIONS. NOW, THERE IS A BACKDOOR TO THIS. BUDDHISTS, FOR INSTANCE, DO NOT SEE THE BUDDHA AS GOD. YET, BOY SCOUTS EXCEPT THEM IN THE ORGANIZATION. AT THE SAME TIME, AS THE SCOUTMASTER, WHEN I SPOKE TO YOUNG MAN AND HE INDICATED THAT HE REALLY WAS NOT INTO THIS RELIGIOUS STUFF, I SAID YOU BELIEVE IN THE FOUR SEASONS? WELL, YES, THAT TAKES CARE OF IT. OKAY. [LAUGHTER]. THERE IS DEFTLY PROGRESS TO BE MAKING AN ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IS A NATIONAL ORGANIZATION ADOPT A POLICY PROTECTING TRANSGENDER YOUTH BECAUSE I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT. AND I THINK REGARDLESS OF WHAT GENDER YOU IDENTIFY AS, YOU SHOULD HAVE OPPORTUNITY TO BE A PART OF SCOUTING WHETHER IT MEANS YOU WANT TO JOIN THE GIRL SCOUTS OF AMERICA OR BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA OR VENTURING PROGRAM, THAT IS SOMETHING I WOULD LIKE TO SEE. MY FINAL QUESTION, HOWARD, WILL YOU -- ARE YOU THINKING OF GOING BACK AND BECOMING A SCOUT LEADER AGAIN? YES, I AM. I'M ALREADY -- I'VE ALREADY TALKED TO A VENTURE POST AND VENTURE CREW AND TALK TO THE BOY SCOUT TROOP AND DEFINITELY WILL BE GOING BACK AND GIVING MY KNOWLEDGE TO USE AGAIN. AS FAR AS TRENDS ENGINE -- TRANS-GENDERS ARE CONCERNED, THOUGH, AT LEAST THREE YOUNG LADIES WHO WERE PART OF SCOUTING FOR ALL THAT WERE TRANSGENDER . SO I'M RIGHT THERE WITH YOU ON THAT, CHANCE. OKAY. I WANT TO CONGRATULATE BOTH OF YOU ON THIS CHANGE FROM THE NATIONAL BOARD OF THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA. I HAVE A SPEAKING WITH CHANCE -- CHANCE KAWAR STUDENT AT PITZER COLLEGE AND HOWARD MENTZER, FORMER BOY SCOUT LEADER AND PRESIDENT OF SCOUTING FOR ALL. THANK YOU BOTH. THANK YOU.
A major policy change with the Boy Scouts of America was greeted by many as another step toward equality for both scouts and the LGBT community.
After years of defending its policy against gay troop leaders, the Boy Scouts' national executive board voted to end the ban on gay adult leaders last Monday.
"It has been a long and arduous fight and we are happy with the conclusion," stated Howard Menzer, an Eagle Scout and former Boy Scout troop leader, in an email announcing the end to the ban. "All the rallies and letters and phone calls have finally brought and end to this dispute."
Menzer said he left the Boy Scouts after 55 years of membership in 1999 after overhearing a Boy Scouts Council executive make a gay joke in front of a scout. Menzer, who is gay is president of Scouting For All, an organization that has been lobbying for inclusion in the Boy Scouts since 2000.
Chance Kawar, an openly gay Eagle Scout from La Mesa, said he believes the younger generation is driving the change.
"I know in my troop, I received a lot of support," Kawar told KPBS Midday Edition on Monday. "A lot of younger people who are in this organization don't really see this as an issue."
But, the decision also allows troops associated with religious organizations to continue to use their beliefs as a criteria for selecting adult leaders. These troops have the option to select leaders “whose beliefs are consistent with their own."
In response to the Boy Scouts policy change, the Mormon Church released a statement last week saying it's century-long relationship with the Boy Scouts needs reevaluation.
The statement reads in part, "The admission of openly gay leaders is inconsistent with the doctrines of the Church and what have traditionally been the values of the Boy Scouts of America."
KPBS contacted several San Diego Boy Scout troop leaders affiliated with religious organizations to participate in this conversation. They have not responded.
