S1: Welcome in San Diego. It's Jade Hindman on today's show. The January 6th insurrection five years later. And San Diego's influence. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. Five years ago today , insurrectionists stormed the US Capitol. The mob waved Confederate flags as they flooded the Capitol rotunda , smashing windows , attacking police officers and vandalizing offices with feces , among other things , all while threatening to hang then Vice President Mike pence. Four insurrectionists died during the attack , including Ashli Babbitt from San Diego. In the days and weeks that followed , five police officers died , some by suicide. More than 1500 insurrectionists had their charges dropped last year after President Trump's sweeping pardons. Earlier today , House Democrats held a special hearing to observe what happened on January 6th. Congresswoman Sarah Jacobs was one of them. She represents San Diego's 51st district. Here's what she had to say.
S2: Even five years later , there are things that I can't shake. The buzzing of the escape hoods. The fear when I couldn't open the packaging , the sound of the doors closing and being locked. Introducing myself to my new colleagues as we were cowering under our chairs , thinking through what I could use as a weapon if I needed to. Pens my high heels. Being sure that the elevator doors were going to open and someone with a machine gun was going to be right there.
S1: Well , joining me to talk about the aftermath of January 6th is Will Carlos. He's a national correspondent for USA today covering extremism and emerging issues , and also Carl Luna. He is a professor emeritus of political science at San Diego Mesa College. Welcome to you both.
S3: Thank you for the invitation.
S4: Thanks for having me on.
S1: I'm glad to have you both here to talk about this.
S4: I mean , I watched it all happen. I didn't go into the , the building itself , but I was right up on the Capitol grounds and all around it and watched the windows being smashed and , you know , and officers being assaulted and everything else. And I guess I'm I'm really glad that you introduced it in the way that you did , describing it in accurate terms. You know , this was an insurrection. It was violent. It was , you know , it was a real abuse of of of democracy. So I know there's been a lot of attempts to to kind of repaint and recast what happened on that day. But as somebody who was there , I can tell you , it was very violent , very scary , very , uh , you know , just Just a nasty day. All in all. Absolutely.
S1: Absolutely. I remember hearing about it and watching it happen when it did. Karl. Five years later , there's still debate over the basic facts of that day for some reason. For one , an official plaque honoring the police who defended that day hasn't been hung , even though it was authorized by Congress in 2022. It's now the subject of a lawsuit which the Department of Justice is seeking to dismiss.
S3: The then president of the United States committed an act of insurrection against his own government. He should have been impeached. He should have been removed from office. He never should have been allowed to run again. His supporters were committing treason against the United States. He did not win the election. The election was won by the other guy , But if you buy into the facts , you can't claim any of the rest of the narrative that flows from that. That everything Donald Trump has done since then has been justified on this great myth , and voters who voted for him have , at least tacitly , of not overtly endorsed that myth.
S1: Well , well , last January , we had you on the show to talk about the impact of sweeping pardons for January 6th. Insurrectionist. Around 1500 were pardoned , including a dozen from San Diego.
S4: I mean , there's been no attempt to roll them back. I mean , I think the more interesting thing perhaps , is , is sort of what's happened in the , in the interim. And so I've been talking to , for example , a group of Proud Boys who had very big plans , big sweeping plans , everything from running for Congress to sort of starting organizations for young men. And at least if they're a sort of an example of what's happening on the broader level there , plants are pretty much sputtered out. They're not really doing much of anything. I think they're they're at a at a march outside the capital today , actually in D.C. but , I mean , these guys aren't doing much. And and I think that that , you know , to to Professor Luna's point , look , I mean , you can you can pardon these people legally. You can take away the legal charges against them. But everybody saw what happened on January 6th. And even people who are in denial truly know what happened. So when these people try to apply for jobs , when they try to , you know , start organizations or get invites to places , people know who they are , they know what they did and they they treat them the way they should be treated , I think.
S1: But if there's no accountability , do you think that emboldens people to.
S4: Oh , sure. Yeah. I mean , no , there's no question about that. Yeah. I mean there's there's really no question about that. And that's not just me opining. I mean , that's what these people talk to each other about in chats every day. I mean , that's what they say online is what they say in public. I mean , there's no doubt that every every extremist group in this country , at least every , every far right extremist group , let's be clear , every far right extremist group in this country was was sort of given a very clear message when those pardons came down that if if certain actions of certain violence is committed in the name of certain politicians , then there will be , if not absolution , then , you know , at least some sort of a reticence to prosecute them and to bring them to justice. I don't think that that's in any way questionable. Yeah.
S3: Yeah. And if I if I could add to what well , was saying that one of the reasons why extremist groups in the right have been relatively quiet is they're getting all the policies they want out of this administration. You won't see them become active again until the administration is threatened in some way , such as a midterm that looks like they may lose to the Democrats. And then you may see these groups coming out of the woodwork again. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. You know , one of the people who died that day on January 6th was Ashley Babbitt. She was from right here in San Diego. She was shot and killed by a Capitol Police officer. How has her death been politicized beyond that day , you think ? Well.
S4: I well , I kind of trolled this story out every year , but I mean , I actually I sat next to Ashley Babbitt on the plane from San Diego to Washington , D.C. , and talked to her and talked to her about some of her ideas and about her life and , you know , and was very shocked and really quite saddened when , when , when she found out , when I found out that she died the next day. I mean , nobody wants , you know. Despite having differences in opinion and everything else , you don't want people to , you know , to suffer or to die. But as far as answering your question , I mean , look , she's been held up as a martyr. I think her family received a big payout of money. Um , the march today that's going on is sort of being held in her honor by , uh , by former insurrectionists and people who have joined them. You know , she is there's no doubt she has a certain status and a certain , almost martyrdom among certain people. They see her as having died for a cause. When , you know the plain facts are as the as the indictment , as the , you know , as the , the legalities that have come out and the videos and everything else show is that she was trespassing and was trying to enter a restricted area and was prohibited from doing that. So , yeah , there's this I think it's one of those classic things where it really kind of depends where you stand politically , how you feel about her. But there's no doubt that certain people in this country hold her up as a martyr.
S1: It seems , you know , I mean , she was radicalized here in San Diego.
S4: Go ahead. Karl , I think I think you probably know this better than me.
S3: Yeah , yeah. We have a long history with that Jade going back to the 1950s with the John Birch Society. In the 1970s , a leader of the local Ku Klux Klan actually won a congressional primary. We have a strong alt right. Radical movements in East County that have been put on watch lists , and you see some of that manifesting in high levels of threats to locally elected officials driving people , including , most recently , a member of the Board of Supervisors , out of public life because of the very dangerous environment they find themselves in. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. I mean , but are there any special social circumstances that that just. Yeah. Go ahead.
S4: Yeah , I would add to that J. The , you know , the , the , the number one , um , sort of correlation and this is a very controversial sort of statistic , but the number one kind of indicator that that or connection between sort of extremist extremists on the far right and sort of the general public is , is having served time in the military , there is a very strong crossover between people who who serve time in the military and who and who enter extremist groups. It's something like that. They're two times as likely to become extremists or to join these groups. San Diego's a big military hub. A lot of people come through here in their military service. Maybe they don't don't carry on. But , um , I think that's at least part of the correlation. Um , you know , also , there's a lot of people here. I mean , it's not just San Diego , it's Southern California in general. I mean , there are millions and millions of people here. And where there are millions and millions of people , you're going to get , you know , a few extremists and those extremists are going to get the headlines. So , yeah , I think it's the it's the historical , uh , stuff that Kyle's talking about , but also just a few other things about about this society that we live in here.
S1: Very interesting. Well , I want to talk about today's special hearing by House Democrats. Democrats accused President Trump and his supporters of attempting to whitewash and rewrite history. As we alluded to earlier. How has their narrative changed since 2021.
S4: I remember. I remember being in the hotel room on January 6th. On the evening of January 6th , and watching people like Marco Rubio and Lindsey Graham like standing up and condemning what had happened. And it really felt like , you know , despite the kind of horrors of the day that there was at least the decency of the sort of common decency of politicians in this country to get together and say , look , that was really messed up. That was not okay. And what you've seen over the preceding five years is just a complete reversal of that. You've seen this attempt , as you say , to , to whitewash it , to pretend that it didn't happen , to paint these people as , as patriots or as , you know , or as as tourists or something else. And , you know , and it's not just politicians , it's the entire apparatus of the far right in this country. It's everyone from , you know , Tucker Carlson to , you know , other talking heads , you know , Hannity , Fox News , people who try to pretend that this didn't happen. And , you know , I'd just urge anybody who's in any doubt about it. If you're on the fence about this , you don't need to do a whole bunch of research. Just go watch the videos. They're all online. You know , there are hour hours long documentaries about this that show exactly what happened. It's not AI. It's not pretending. It's not fake. It's. It's what happened. I watched it happen , and and I'd urge your listeners to go do the same. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. And you know , and also , you know , there's even this slightly , you know , more insidious thing that happens. And that's when the , the language is softened. Right. And you kind of spoke to that.
S3: And now , in the president's second term , ceding all power from the legislative branch to the executive. They've bought into this narrative with the hope that would preserve their electability to the Congress. And the price tag they have paid is. They have no power , which is why so many members of Congress are now fleeing that chip , because it might as well have sunk. This has been the least productive Congress in modern history. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. Well , do you anticipate anything coming from increased calls for accountability around the five year anniversary here ? Nope.
S4: It's simply put. Nope , I don't think I think that ship has sailed. I mean , look , you know , these people have been tried. They were found guilty. They went to prison in some cases for more than 15 years. And and they're now free and they're walking the streets. And there was an excellent analysis in The New York Times by the last night or this morning , about the number of these people who have gone on to commit crimes , to commit domestic abuse , to , you know , to go into into drug addict , to fall into drug addiction and other things. And , um , you know , it's yeah , I , I love the way that Karl never mentions his words , but it's kind of hard to argue with what a lot of what he's saying. I mean , having the distance we've come in five years is pretty extraordinary , and I don't think there's any turning back that clock. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Well , Karl , I want to give you the last word here.
S3: Yes , the big lesson of January 6th with was without accountability. You are now have a political party. And a president who was largely unchained witnessed the recent events with Venezuela. The comments about Greenland. I mean , we are in the process of potentially attacking a NATO member and after that of other Canadians , I'd fortify their borders. Now , this stuff sounds crazy to say , but the fact that five years later , there's been no accountability by January 6th. On January 7th. 25 years ago , everybody thought there'd be accountability. It'd be crazy that there wouldn't be. We are , unfortunately , in a time where our democracy is under unprecedented stress , and 2026 is going to be an important year again , because the midterm elections are going to determine this president's next two years. And fair and free elections may not be in his best interest.
S1:
S3: You currently have an administration which is constantly playing up to the limits of the law and beyond it. We'll have to see how the administration reacts if the Supreme Court starts to tell them no.
S1: I've been speaking with Will Karlis. He covers extremism and emerging issues for USA today , and his latest series , Extremely Normal , explores how fringe movements become normalized. Well , thank you so much.
S4: Thank you.
S1: And also Carl Luna. He's a professor of political science at San Diego Mesa College. Professor , it's always great to have you on. Thank you so much.
S3: Thank you as well.
S1: That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
