S1: Welcome in San Diego , it's Jade Hindman. On today's show , we'll discuss San Diego's role in the war with Iran , plus the influence of Christian nationalism. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. Welcome back to KPBS midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman. The American-Israeli war on Iran has entered its second week. More than 1300 people have been killed in Iran , according to the Iranian Red Crescent Society. And over the weekend , a seventh U.S. service member was killed. Now , many fear this could be another forever war , pointing to parallels of the U.S. invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. My next guest explores that question , though , in his recent op ed in the San Diego Union Tribune. He argues that San Diego's role in the war started long before this year. Ibrahim Al Morici joins me now. He's a professor of Middle East history at Cal State San Marcos and visiting professor of journalism at San Diego State University. Professor , welcome back to Midday Edition.
S2: It's good to be back. Thank you for having me.
S1: So glad to have you here. Now , your op ed is called San Diego's key role in the forever war with Iran.
S3:
S2: Is wary of entering another forever war with the recent strike on Iran. My argument is we haven't noticed. But during the first Trump administration , the US , particularly the San Diego area and its naval fleet had been deployed in a low intensity war with Iran. We just never paid attention. And then the events of Covid more or less prevented that war from escalating. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. Well , you know , I really I want to dig into some of the issues in more , more detail here because you argue that San Diego's connection to this war goes back as far as 2019. Um , tell me a bit more about that.
S3: So if we look at.
S2: A timeline , uh , the US under the Obama administration entered a nuclear deal. Uh , that was in 2015. And by 2018 , the Trump administration had withdrawn from that nuclear deal. And by withdrawing from that nuclear deal , uh , the events with Iran , the tensions , the military conflict began soon after the minute we withdrew. There was a low intensity war. Iranian backed Iraqi militias started to attack U.S. interests. And finally , as a result , Trump ordered the USS Abraham Lincoln , the aircraft carrier group , to the Gulf , or I should say , off the coast of Iran as a way of pressuring it. B-52s were deployed , and in 2020 , Trump ordered a drone strike that killed an Iranian general on Iraqi soil. That's the opening salvo of the war. It was a choreographed retaliation where the Islamic Republic hit back , and then the war kind of ended. But nevertheless , the tensions never really went away. Bringing us to the events in 2026. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. You know , I mean , we've heard many comparisons to the forever wars , again , of Iraq and Afghanistan. And you write about how San Diego County is shaped by those wars. Tell me about that. Correct.
S2: Correct. On two levels. First , you have veterans. And , you know , I've had students who served in both Afghanistan and Iraq. So , you know , you have veterans , particularly outside of Camp Pendleton and Oceanside , that have been deployed on multiple tours. Yet at the same time , the Forever Wars sent a whole generation of Iraqis to El Cajon. At San Diego State , you have a whole generation of Iraqis that had to leave Iraq due to those forever wars. You have a whole generation of Afghans , and it wouldn't be surprising if you have a new generation of Iranians coming to San Diego as well. And , you know , uh , God forbid , a whole generation of another generation of people who had to go and be mobilized to fight in Iran.
S1: And for , you know , those who have lived through those wars.
S3: Just.
S2: Just. Another.
S3: Another.
S2: Example of the US not learning from its history in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Those were very long , costly wars. And in both cases , you know , the Taliban survived in Afghanistan. They ended up coming back raising questions for those who died in Afghanistan. What was the point ? And in the case of Iraq , Saddam was overthrown and something much more nefarious emerged in its place the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. ISIS , which still exists. I think those are both cautionary tales that usually , um , wars don't necessarily make Iraq or Afghanistan better or safer. And the same could be said to be wrong.
S1: We say that , um , that that is , you know , a goal , a stated goal , uh , in many cases. Um , but that doesn't happen as you just mentioned.
S3:
S2: The goal hasn't been articulated. In 2003 , it was to remove Saddam Hussein and create a democratic system in Iraq in um , as well as to remove weapons of mass destruction that never existed in Afghanistan. It was to overthrow the Taliban and make sure it was never a base for terrorism. Currently , as we speak , ISIS , one of its branches , is in Afghanistan. Uh , Iraq never had WMDs. Uh , and so that raises the question. I , I don't think we have been told as a public we haven't been provided any evidence. What are what is the goal in Iran ? And why is the US engaging in another war with this war hasn't even been declared in official discourse. It's called a strategic action. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. And and how does the rhetoric being used to justify this war reflect what we've heard in previous conflicts.
S3: Well you know , remember you had me once.
S2: Before where I described how back in 2003 , my research was plagiarized. My research on the 91 Gulf. War.
S3: War.
S2: Was plagiarized for the 2003 Iraq War , using the language that if we don't stop Saddam now , a nuclear mushroom cloud will be detonated in New York City. And so it just is. Eerily.
S3: Eerily. Reminiscent.
S2: Reminiscent. The same arguments , the same , you know , if we don't attack Iran now , a nuclear weapon or an ICBM intercontinental ballistic missile could hit the US. So I'm seeing kind of a cycle. And again , it seems that the intelligence is being fabricated , as it was in 2003 , arguing that a nuclear threat from Iraq was imminent when such program didn't even exist in Iraq. Which then raises the question , is the intelligence being fabricated again in this war ? It's happened again. It wouldn't surprise me if. But if it had happened in the past , it wouldn't surprise me if it happens again. Yeah.
S1: Yeah.
S3:
S2: Nothing to gain from war in this respect. In 1991 , we ejected Iraq from Kuwait , not realizing that a decade later , almost a decade later to the date in 2001 , a group called Al Qaida had formed to object to what we did in Iraq , Osama bin laden , al Qaeda retaliated against the US for its role in attacking Iraq in 1991. That was a decade later. Who would have thought that would happen ? Uh , 2003.
S3: Uh , we.
S2: Replaced Saddam Hussein with a government that took a long time to stabilize and created ISIS in the process. So it begs the question. All those words were short. 91 Gulf War , six weeks. 2003 Iraq were three weeks , but then the repercussions were felt almost a decade later. Trump promises that this might be a four week. War.
S3: War.
S2: But I could guarantee there will be ramifications that we can't even fathom or imagine that might come back to the US. There's a term called blowback , invented by a UCSD professor who knows what the blowback will be.
S1:
S3:
S2: If we look at all the wars in the Middle East , whether it was the intervention of Libya in 2011 that left Libya that , you know , broke apart and collapsed , no actor in the Middle East will benefit from a collapse of Iran , you know , for Israel to take part in this war , I'll just give another precedent. And when Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 , it was to eject a group called the Palestine Liberation Organization. It succeeded , but in its place became something much more , um , challenging to Israel's security. Hezbollah emerged in that vacuum so that even if you could say , does even Israel benefit from this military action , again , it's with the Middle East. There's always unintended consequences. Never can there be military action that can basically say , okay , this objective was achieved without looking at repercussions a decade later. Desires for vengeance. Uh , revenge. You know , these are strong.
S3: You know.
S2: Emotions that just don't disappear when the bullets stop. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. You know , I also want to talk about how this war is different. You know , we're in a completely new era characterized by deepfakes and AI. How is that technology changing the landscape ? Absolutely.
S2: In 2003 , the , you know , the blog had just been invented , the personal weblog had just been invented. And in those days , you had Iraqis blogging telling us how the situation really is and that that was about it. There was no social media back then. Uh , here we are in 2026. Not only is there social media , but the AI deepfake was quite powerful during the 12 day war. That is the war with Israel in the US , creating videos of either Tel Aviv being destroyed or mushroom clouds in Iran. And those videos went viral. They got millions of likes. Uh , you know , my plagiarism was research. Uh , my , uh , sorry , my research was plagiarized by the British government because it was the government's creating the propaganda war back then. In this day and age , the propaganda war is decentralized. Uh. anyone can create an AI video that could go viral. And , you know , you're based in San Diego State , and this is why kind of new majors , like , you know , the Bachelor of Science in AI and human responsibility is so important. It's us who have to be responsible and make sure to ask ourselves , how is the information we're getting about this war real , or is it spreading disinformation ? Those are the more powerful weapons than the aircraft carriers I described earlier. Those. Those are weapons that could spread to millions of people. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. You know , and I understand you're also teaching a class about media and conflict in the Middle East. What lessons are you taking from what's happening in the Middle East right now ? Correct.
S2: It was quite surreal in the summer. I was teaching a , you know , a course on media in the Middle East for the School of Journalism and Media Studies while the war was happening. In other words , we were just examining the media that was being produced and analyzing it critically. And unfortunately , this war is going to give me , you know , a lot of material for , you know , a class I would offer in the fall on that subject. And it's this even though , um , Iran might be the military power that's weaker in this , that , uh , the ability to create viral media , AI media becomes a way of asymmetric warfare. It becomes a way of fighting a techno guerrilla war. Um , the fact that it could be losing militarily , but its ability to create images of its striking , let's say , Israel or striking US military , uh , such as uh , aircraft carriers or downing planes could shape an environment where Iran wins the war for hearts and minds in the region. Mm.
S1: Mm. Wow. Lots to discuss and lots to also discuss in terms of what comes next in this war , I'm sure we'll we'll have that discussion as things unfold. I've been speaking with Ibrahim Al Morici. He's a professor of Middle East history at Cal State San Marcos and visiting professor of journalism at San Diego State University. And you can read his op ed in the San Diego Union Tribune. And it will also be linked on our website , KPBS. Professor , thank you so much.
S2: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
S1: Up next , we explore the role Christian nationalism is playing in U.S. policy. KPBS Midday Edition returns after the break. Welcome back to KPBS midday edition , I'm Jade Hindman. On Friday , several pastors surrounded and laid hands on President Donald Trump in the Oval Office with heads bowed. They prayed for him and the war in Iran while closing that prayer with parts of the Pledge of Allegiance , a clear erasure of the separation between church and state. There. In the past , presidents have met with groups of interfaith leaders , but this was mainly a group of evangelical leaders , which is important to note because some of them are leading voices in the Christian nationalist movement , a movement that has heavily influenced U.S. policy under Trump. And that brings us to current military operations in Iran. You see , last week , reports started to surface of troops allegedly being told the reason for bombing Iran was to start a holy war sanctioned by God to bring forth Armageddon. While unverified allegations they still track. Joining us to explore why is Rebecca Bartel. She's a professor of religion at San Diego State University. Professor , welcome to midday edition.
S4: Hi , Jade , thanks so much for having me on.
S1: Well , I really appreciate you being here. You know , last week of Religious Freedom Group says it received more than 100 complaints from U.S. troops. They allege that commanders are framing this war as part of God's plan and invoking end times rhetoric. So my first question for you is , can you explain what they're talking about here ? Sure.
S4:
S5: Um , so this is.
S4: Something that scholars refer to as dispensational premillennialism or millenarian ism. It's an actually fairly old and kind of prevalent idea within a lot of evangelical Christian , especially in the United States , um , movements. And there are multiple sort of interpretations of what this means. It's based on biblical interpretation of primarily the Book of Revelation , which is the last book in the Christian Bible and the New Testament. And the idea is that there are signs and symbols of the times that would indicate the second coming of Christ. So this is a really common belief within most , uh , most Protestant , Christian , um , sects or , or traditions , and of which there are many variations. But the idea is that Christ will come again , and the indication that Christ will come again is times of turbulence and turmoil and trial and the eventual defeat of the so-called beast , which is named as sort of a code for general evil. And then Christ will reign for a thousand years , and the descendants of of Christ will be saved in a different manner of ways to interpret that. So that God works through these times of of warfare. And I should mention that this word Armageddon is being thrown around. Armageddon in the book of revelation is mentioned once , and it's actually a probably a place that was referred to by the writer of the Book of Revelation , who at most biblical scholars. And I'm not one. I'm an anthropologist and anthropologist of Christianity , but most biblical scholars agree that this was written by someone who was writing in the time of Emperor Nero , who is , you know , in the first century after the death of Christ , was persecuting early Christians , and it was a time of much turmoil. Um , and so this idea of millenarian ism has arisen over different periods of time , and especially in the United States , with this movement of Christian nationalism , that it's been prominent since really the 19th century as kind of a prevalent component of US Christian identity and ideas that has a variation within it. But I think what we're hearing from these reports to the Military Religious Freedom Foundation , these complaints that are allegedly coming in , um , is a is a sort of strand of American , um , religious propaganda that this regime is also sort of upholding as a form of justification of all kinds of violence that are going that that are part of the foreign policy and domestic policy of this particular administration. Right.
S1: Right. Well , you know , I want to unpack a lot of that because we hear these terms thrown around often , Christian nationalism and Christian Zionism , for example.
S4: So Christian nationalism is uh , is a.
S5: I would the , the Pew.
S4: Research Center , which I don't know if you're familiar. They do some really good survey work on sort of religious landscapes around the world , especially in the United States. And they think they suggest that around three out of ten American Christians would identify in some way as Christian nationalists , which is a softening of the distinction between church and state , that the different ideas of how much influence Christian morality should have in our legal systems and our political structures , how much the Bible should be a blueprint for , or the Christian Bible specifically for writing laws and for influencing the ways in which we think of things like the family , gender , sex education , um , you know , the reproductive rights and so on. Also that the idea that the United States is an inherently Christian nation , this is sort of central to Christian nationalism , and that the United States has been chosen by God in some sort of a metaphysical way to represent to the rest of the world a kind of not just American exceptionalism , but a chosen kind of role in international affairs. And that Christianity is , is sort of the , um , if not should be the official religion , which would be like a straightforward theocratic agenda. Uh , it certainly should be the , the model , uh , to which the US government organizes itself and and its laws. Christian Zionism is a little bit different , I would say. Not all Christian nationalists or Christian Zionists , but all Christian Zionists are Christian nationalists to some degree. The Christian Zionist movement has its roots in also sort of , uh , over the course of Christian history , different moments of of emerging. The idea being that there are , again , based on sort of biblical interpretation of prophetic , uh , tracts , that Christ's coming again is ushered in by the Jewish people , all the Jewish diaspora , all regrouping and returning to Palestine or the Holy Land or the Promised Land , and that that as the descendants of Abraham. This is taken from Genesis , Ezekiel , some of the , um , the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible texts , and that's used to justify this. If we have if we have the Jewish folk back in is back in Palestine , quite literally , this is the beginning of the ushering in of this Christian , millennial , millennial millenarian ism. And that that will usher in a time of , um , the great battle between good and evil , where ultimately Christ will return. Now , it's important to note that even though Christian Zionists , like someone like Mike Huckabee , is an open and , um , you know , self-declared Christian Zionist , believing that this land , this territory of the Middle East is , uh , prophesied to be inherited by the descendants of Abraham , including the Jewish people. But at the end of the day. And that Christian Zionist agenda is ultimately quite anti-Semitic , because it's not the Jewish people who are going to be saved. At the end of the day , it is the Christians. And I think that's a really important note to to keep in mind when this term is being trotted out as a pro Jewish idea.
S1: Can you point to just three examples of how these ideas have shaped US policy.
S4: In the last , well.
S1: Four years. So we'll say two years.
S4: A couple of years.
S1: I'll give you two.
S4: Um , I think we see it in all kinds of domestic policy , for example. I mean , it's important to note , just the last few years is a specific iteration of Christian nationalist agenda building. And , um , I think it's important to understand that this is a this has been a long standing tradition in US evangelical Christianity since since the sort of mid 19th century. And this it rears its head in all kinds of , um , ways , especially in moments of , you know , tense international relations and domestic relations. So , um , I think the repeal of Roe v Wade , certainly in Christian nationalist circles , the language and discourse and sort of celebration of that is , um , often lauded as a manifestation of this government , this administration , the Trump administration , specifically serving the interests and purposes of , uh , a really sort of conservative Christian evangelical agenda. And when I do also want to say Christian evangelical , I'm really talking about white Christian evangelicals. And there is diversity within Christian evangelical identity. And , uh , but we're talking like 86% of white Christian nationalists , according to Pew , could be categorized as Christian nationalists by some degree. I think also the border policies that we're seeing implemented in such violent ways and the anti-immigration movement , the idea that this is tied to a religious identity and that folks from outside the US threaten the sort of purity of a white Christian US identity. So we're seeing that manifest in border policy , in Ice action , in the policies of DHS and the messaging that's going on. If you follow at the DHS , DoD , any of these institutions on social media , for example , you can see really blatant religious propaganda being utilized to justify the actions of , of of government agents. Um , and of course , moving , uh , the , um , moving the , the , the embassy in Israel to Bethlehem at Jerusalem , as you know , that that was a move to satisfy a certain specific lobby that was pushing for this kind of of agenda in Middle Eastern presence of the United States through via its proxy through Israel. So those are three sort of concrete examples , I think , of how we're seeing this manifest. I do want to say , though , if I may. Sure. Um , that I there , there this is not the only story. And I think the more the more attention and credence we give to Christian nationalism , these sort of extreme , uh , I wouldn't call it a fringe movement , but it's definitely not the only or dominant story within the Christian world in the United States. And I , I , I want anyone who's listening thinking , this is not the Christianity that I identify with. Um , to be assured that they're right. This is one manifestation of a really particular conservative agenda within the electorate that's also tied to a military interest , political interest and essentially , you know , relations of power that all religion can really exploit. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. Well , you know , I want to turn back now to those reports from service members , because USA today looked into them and the Pentagon did not respond to their questions about whether they've investigated or verified those complaints. But they did hear from retired military chaplains about overt Christian messaging under Pete Hegseth.
S4: So violations of constitutional rights of a diverse military community that represents all kinds of different religious positions and traditions , which is , I think , one of the fundamental principles of , of constitutional democracy in the United States. Um , I also I also think it , um , it weakens credibility of this government and , and the military campaign , uh , in the eyes of , of so many in the world , I mean , I I'm Canadian , I'm not I'm not a US citizen. Um , and from the perspective of thinking about US , foreign policy is being driven through this theological kind of , uh , justification. It really will continue to cause increasing issues in international collaboration and , and relations. I think , uh , it's not something to be taken seriously on the world stage. Wow.
S1: Wow. In the last minute , before we go here , what can we learn from history in this moment.
S4: I think there are a couple of things. One of them is that religion is not something that exists sui generis outside of historical , political , economic , social context. It is something that is shaped and formed by human beings , that does make decisions about the language and the practices and the discourses and the actions that they as a um , uh , justify or use religion as , uh , as a way of , of convincing the electorate. I think there are so many historical moments where we see religion being deployed in as a weapon that can be just as deadly as bombs. Um , and at the same time , though , I think we need to also recognize that religion can also be utilized for resistance and peace building and , uh , Collective , uh , um , ideas of of what is just and right in the world. One of the things that also is important to remember is that religion come. It ebbs and flows. It's not a static thing. So there are always movements coming and going. Um , that are given more or less importance in , uh , in the public sphere. So we need to remember that.
S1: All right. Thank you so much. I've been speaking with Rebecca Bartel. She's a professor of religion at San Diego State University. Rebecca , such an interesting conversation. Thank you so much for joining us.
S6: Thanks so much for having me. Have a great rest of your day.
S1: You too. Thanks for joining us today. If you missed anything , you can download KPBS Midday Edition on all podcast apps. I'm Jade Hindman. Join me again tomorrow. Until then , make it a great day on purpose , everyone.
