S1: Welcome in San Diego. It's Jade Hindman on today's show. Book author George Saunders will be at the writers Symposium by the Sea and Point Loma Nazarene University this week. He joins us to talk about his novel Lincoln in the Bardo. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. It's February 1862. Then President Abraham Lincoln mourns the death of his son , Willie by visiting his gravesite. That's the premise behind the acclaimed 2017 novel Lincoln in the Bardo. The book would go on to win the Booker Prize and become a runaway bestseller for its creative meditation of grief. The author behind it is George Saunders. He is among the authors appearing at this week's Writers Symposium by the sea at Point Loma Nazarene University. George Saunders , welcome to midday edition.
S2: It's nice to be here , Jade. Thank you for having me. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. So glad to have you on. You came to novels fairly late in your career. The short story dominated much of your early work.
S2: And I think that's what a short story is , really. It's very similar to the joke in that it has to you have to get in and out quick , and when you're done , if nobody laughs , you're in trouble. So it's kind of a form that I sort of knew organically. Wow.
S1: Wow. Well , for Lincoln in the Bardo , your debut novel , you have said it took a long time from when inspiration struck to actually writing it. So talk to me a little bit about why it took so long to write and what led you to do that ? Sure.
S2: Well , I had my early work is kind of sarcastic and sci fi and kind of dark and very contemporary. And in those early years , we went by the graveyard in Oak Hill in Georgetown , where Lincoln's son was buried , and my wife's cousin pointed out the crypt. And I thought , man , that's a beautiful story , but I just didn't feel like there was much cross section between what I was doing at that time in that kind of sarcastic mode and this , you know , beautiful , earnest story. So really , it took me about 20 years of just , you know , kind of getting older and our kids growing up and getting maybe , um , in touch with the kind of more positive valence of life. And then I at about I think I was 52 or 53 , I thought , man , if I don't , if I don't do it now , I'll never do it. And I didn't want to be the guy whose gravestone read , you know , uh , avoided the thing he most longed to do. And so I had to get down to it.
S1: I get it , I get it.
S2: So really , the only difference is with the two novels. Um , I just kind of think of there's a real simple plot that's like a clothesline. So in Lincoln , it's , um , you know , Abe Lincoln goes into the cemetery and interacts with his son's body. That's the through line. And then the improv. It's really very similar. I think the joy is in , um , those moments when I'm sitting over here typing and I surprise myself , and then several , several years later , that surprise translates to you as a reader. And so we feel that kind of beautiful connection that that reading can offer. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. Well , listen to this. You know , the theme for this year's symposium by the sea is , is riding across the divide.
S2: I mean , I'm over here in my mind with my own delusions about my own separateness and permanent , permanent nature. You know , and you're over there with presumably similar ideas and in any kind of art or , I guess , any kind of genuine human communication. I make the leap of faith that no matter who you are , where you come from , we have something in common. So I put that out for you , and you come and get it. And in that instant where the divide goes away and we're , we're kind of of one mind. So I think that's the fundamentally really hopeful , uh , that we turn to art for. And I think , you know , in this time in particular , it's very important that we that human beings remind ourselves that connection actually is possible , you know , through honesty and good faith and , and love. And I think literature is , for me , is one way that I certainly feel that from , from the writer's side of that , of that equation. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. You know Lincoln and the Bardo is being adapted to a film. And this week news hit that Tom Hanks is going to be playing Abraham Lincoln in the film. Yeah.
S2: Well that was a good week around our house. Yes. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. I mean tell me about your reaction to that.
S2: Well , I mean , I've known about it for a little bit , but it was just it's the perfect. It's a dream. You know , he's such a wonderfully expressive actor. And I think in a certain way , you know , in the same way that we , you know , we kind of have we each have a Lincoln in our heart in a kind of private , privatized Lincoln. I think Tom Hanks has the same quality. You look at him and you project positive qualities onto him. So I'm really just thrilled about it and can't wait to see what he does.
S1:
S2: I mean , I , I think as a young person I always kind of dreamed of that. You know , and it and it hasn't happened up until now. Really. So it's really great. And it's sort of like , um , uh , it's kind of good for your ego in a sense , because you have to share it. You have to share it with the director. You have to share it with the actors. You have to share it with everybody. And again , that's another form of saying , I , I trust you. You're going to do what you have to do to make something beautiful about it. So , you know , writing in such a private , uh , obsessively private activity and , uh , so in many ways in my life , in the movies , but in many other ways , I'm trying to get out a little more , you know , and try to try to believe in community and make it for myself. So this is a very nice , practical way to do that.
S1: That's great. Well , your most recent novel is vigil , and it came out just last month. It also focuses on someone struggling with a life coming to an end. Tell me a little bit about that.
S2: Yeah , well , I was thinking about , um , kind of. Well , I think there is a certain way in which , you know , if you're at all sane , you start thinking , well , how did I do ? You know , how have I done so far , and is there anything I need to to change ? And I found myself thinking about kind of the next older generation , like people who might be in their 80s or so now , and particularly of that kind of , um , generation of , of , of oil people and , and PR people and political people who kind of quietly conspired to kick climate change down the road. And it's a very interesting book called Emergence of Doubt that talks about this movement that actually came over intact from tobacco with all these denial strategies that they learned and perfected. So I was kind of thinking in the abstract about that. And then the two ideas kind of came together like if you were a person who had done something that monumentally rotten , you know , and now you're at the end of your life , excuse me at the end of your life , um , you know , is there such a thing as last minute redemption ? If so , what ? What does a person's mind have to do to reject a lifetime of self ? Uh , and I think , you know , as funny as I wrote it , all these things were happening in the bigger world that , um , you know , have made these questions kind of large. Like , there is actually real evil in the world. Uh , but the people who perpetrate it might not , you know , they might not be Cruella de Vil. You know , they might be on the outside , high functioning people. So how do we deal with them ? How do. How do they deal with themselves ? Um , how do we , um , identify those tendencies within ourselves ? And for me , the big thing was , you know , what does redemption look like ? Is it ? Is it available to everybody ? Uh , so those kind of those kind of questions a novel can actually get you inside of in a kind of , you know , interesting way. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. I mean , speaking of redemption , um , how do you think about things like , you know , hope and joy when telling stories , which are often centered around darker aspects of life , like loss ? Yeah.
S2: Well , I think that's kind of for me in my life , that's been the big challenge , is it seems after a certain point , uh , you know , when you're young , I think you think loss is something that happens to other people. You know , those dummies. And then at some point you go , oh , wait a minute. Los is kind of the it's just baked in to everything. You know , it's it's just not a matter of if. It's a matter of when. So then for me , the thing is how how indeed do we live joyfully knowing that , you know , the hammer is coming down on us and not only on us , but everything , everything , everyone that we love and everything that we cherish. That's a really , uh , in the Lincoln book. That was really a question that was very alive for me is given that we're all temporary. Can we still live with some kind of joy ? And I guess I'm really I'm just trying to work it out for myself , to be honest. Wow.
S1: Wow. Well , in addition to your writing , you also taught creative writing at Syracuse University for 30 years. What did you learn about teaching writing over the years ? Hmm.
S2: I still do teach there. I learned basically kind of. It sounds simple , but like faith in young people because , you know , I would keep getting older and older and basically , you know , the students would stay the same age. Uh , and we always have such a beautiful connection over just writing. You know , they can be very different from me , have a completely different experience of life. But we sit down over one of their stories and I start editing it , and I've gotten much better at listening to them and , you know , trying to hear what , what they have to say. And we always , almost always connect. And so that's been a great gift. You know , as you get older , just instead of saying , oh , these kids today , I'm like , oh , these kids today , you know. Uh , so that's been beautiful. And just the idea that things are workable , you know , you can work out a relationship with them , you can work with their stories. Um , and that's a very , very a real bright spot in my life. Wow.
S1: Wow. How do you think the challenges facing a younger writer today are different from the ones you face when you began your career ? Hmm.
S2: That's a great question. I mean , in some ways , they're the same , which is just. How do I find my voice ? You know , how do I , uh , find a way to say something no one else could say. How do I take my private , perhaps difficult experiences and and get them into my work ? That's that's always the same. The challenge , I think now is , is the same as the broader challenge for young people , which is that all the money has floated upwards. And these corporate structures that we've made have made it very difficult to be a struggling writer. My wife and I were lucky enough to know Toni Morrison , and she used to talk about the way that when she was a young woman , a person could be poor and still be a respected part of the community. There was no shame associated with it. And so by extrapolation , you could be a young artist and of course you'd be struggling. But the way the the kind of corporate environment has changed things is that there's very little room for a young writer to do the necessary struggle. You know , it might take 5 or 10 years. We don't really make a sacred space for that in our culture anymore. So these kids are. They get out of the program and they have to hit the ground running , and often their financial needs make it such that their writing time gets crowded out. Uh , that's a problem. And then I know AI has created a lot of anxiety and yeah , yeah , to me it's just like AI and writing. We don't actually need it. You know , we we have human. We have human beings for that. Thank you very much.
S1: Well , that's what I was going to ask you , because , you know , society doesn't lend itself to to people taking the necessary time to really write a book within a timely fashion to meet your , your financial needs. Um , so do you see AI sort of creeping in there ? And people may be relying on that to get a book done faster.
S2: Well , I think that what I feel is that the people who are inventing this stuff and making these huge investments are pushing it into places that it doesn't really have a natural home. I think I've heard that in math and science it's very useful. But when you think about , you know , me writing a book over here and you read reading over there. We we both are counting on the full humanity of the other person. That's what the game is. You know , you're turning to me. I'm saying I've had these experiences. I've had these losses. Let me put it into this kind of small form of a story. Hand it to you , see if your stories and your losses resonate , that's something that only two people can do. So AI can simulate it. But why do we want the simulation when we can have the real thing ? You know , it's called humanities. Humanities , you know. Yeah. Indeed.
S1: Indeed.
S2: So I think sometimes we can just say , no , thank you. You know , you're amazing , but please stay out. Right.
S1: Right. There's some things that AI cannot replace for sure. Um , listen , what can you tell me about your next project ? I mean , and do you know what form it'll take ? No.
S2: Honestly , I have no idea. I'm in that kind of beautiful space where it's all potential. You know , I've. I'm on tour for this book now , and I'm almost done. I'll be done. Actually , after I come to San Diego , I'm going to go home to LA and just look at a blank page. So that's really exciting because it's , you know , I haven't screwed it up yet , but I basically I just I just want to. For me , at this point , I'm really interested in making a book that's as big as I feel about the world , you know , as complicated and with as much good and evil in it. And also , I'm kind of like the idea of putting some celebration , a little more celebration in there , you know , just just before I go out the door , just praising this place one more time. Really good.
S1: All right. Well , that'll be a welcome , um , project , I'm sure. I mean.
S2: We're gonna work on it.
S1: Oh , you got it. You got it.
S2: I'm sorry. I have a cough. Once before , I did a piece for GQ where I drove the whole Mexican , American , Mexican border with America and with the US. And I went to the border right there , uh , Near San Diego. And I'd been , you know , living out of my car for ten days. And I just came to the hotel and went to sleep. So I don't know , San Diego. And I'm kind of looking forward to seeing some other sides of it.
S1: All right. Well , I can't wait for you to see San Diego. I'm sure you'll enjoy it. I've been speaking with Arthur George Saunders. He will be appearing at this year's Writers Symposium by the Sea at Point Loma Nazarene University this Friday , February 27th at 7 p.m.. You can find more information at our website , KPBS. George , thank you so much. It was great speaking with you.
S2: It was my pleasure. Thank you so much.
S1: That's our show for today.
S3: I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
