S1: Welcome in San Diego. It's Jade Hindman on this episode of KPBS Midday Edition. Flock cameras may be on their way out of town. We'll tell you about the details. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. Well , today , the San Diego City Council is taking its first step to end the use of flock cameras in the city. Here's what Councilmember Henry Foster , the third , had to say earlier this morning.
S2: I'm calling on San Diego City Council to take action to end the city's use of Flock Safety's automated license plate reader technology and terminate the services provided under its existing contract.
S1: The move comes as pushback against the surveillance technology grows from the public and even some city leaders. Last week , Council member Stephen Whitburn called for the end for the city to end its use of flock cameras after supporting that technology previously. Joining me with more is Andrew Bowen , KPBS Metro reporter. Andrew , welcome.
S3: Hi , Jade. Thank you.
S1: So we know the council has taken up the issue of these flock cameras in a session today. What's the latest?
S3: Yeah , well , Council member Henry Foster chairs the budget and government efficiency committee. To end that committee. Had a meeting today. The committee just voted literally moments ago , as we're talking now to approve his requested action. And that had his request was had a couple of components. First , he wants to rescind the city's use policy on automated license plate readers. And that would effectively end the use of this technology immediately if it's approved by the full city council. Second , he wanted to ask the mayor to terminate its contract with the provider of that technology. And then third , he wants to amend an ordinance that regulates the city's use of surveillance technology that would prohibit automated license plate readers in the city altogether. So taking an additional step and making it harder to reintroduce the technology in the future.
S1: And remind us what this technology does and how it's currently being used. Yeah.
S3: Yeah. Automated license plate readers are cameras that are mounted to streetlights in San Diego , and they record every license plate that passes through the camera's frame and they log it in a database. Police can then search that database and try and locate stolen vehicles , or a person who's fleeing a crime scene or has an arrest warrant , based on reporting from Times of San Diego. The most common use of Alpers was for stolen vehicles , um , followed by arrest warrants , weapons offenses , and assault and battery. There was previously this other category that a police officer could enter into the search , you know , saying that , you know , I'm looking for this car and it doesn't fit any of the reasons that are listed in this dropdown menu. That was concerning to some folks. And so the police have since ended that option. Every search of the ALP database has to be documented with a specific reason.
S1: It may be way too early to know this , but if the cameras go , what happens to the data that's been recorded and collected?
S3: Well , a part of council member or council member Foster's request is that all of the data would be deleted. So as soon , you know , if this were to ultimately be approved by the full city council , if it were to , uh , either get the mayor's , uh , consent or if the council were to override a veto from the mayor , then all of that data would have to be deleted pretty almost immediately.
S1: Well , the story goes back to 2023 , when the city signed a contract with a company named UBC. What was the agreement? The city signed onto then? Yeah.
S3: Yeah. Well , um , even before that contract , the city had what are called smart streetlights. And these are just cameras mounted to streetlights. They were originally pitched as a tool to gather data , kind of create a smart city that might , you know , maybe it can analyze traffic flows to , to inform decisions about , you know , street design or infrastructure. But it very quickly moved , uh , it very quickly became a tool for law enforcement. So police realized , you know , these cameras are recording what's happening on the street. If a , if a crime is committed and the camera records that crime or captures somebody fleeing , um , they could search that footage to help with their investigation. So in 2023 , the technology was expanded to add this automated license plate reader technology. And so , um , you know , that allows these cameras to capture every single license plate that passes by and log it in a database. So everyone is basically there. You know , if you're traveling in a vehicle in San Diego , your movements can be tracked. Even if you were never suspected of committing a crime or being involved in anything you know , untoward.
S1: Presenting obvious privacy concerns here. But remind us , why are people opposing this technology so heavily?
S3: Yeah , well , there's definitely that privacy concern. So , you know , these these cameras are not discriminating between criminals and law abiding citizens. Um , the the in addition to that , last year , SaPD admitted that it had mistakenly made its database available to outside law enforcement agencies. And that was not that was a violation of city policy. They fixed it , or at least they say they did. But it definitely intensified these fears of this technology being used by Ice or other federal agencies That you know are causing a lot of fear in San Diego communities. There have also been cases of false hits or mistaken identity. So the police arrest someone based on an altar search , but that person says their car was not where the database says it was , and they can prove that. And they , you know , they say you just got the wrong person. Um , last year , the San Diego Union-Tribune also revealed that the PD captain who had presented the contract for this alter technology left the city after the contract was approved and took a job at Flock Safety. So that was a real concern that , you know , there was a conflict of interest that this , um , contract was approved , basically , um , in a way that allowed this person to personally profit from it by getting that job with the company.
S1: Very interesting. Um , you know , in addition to his call for the city to end its contract with ubiquity. Councilmember foster also called for changes to the city's trust ordinance. So what does that cover and what changes is he calling for there?
S3: Yeah , the trust ordinance generally regulates surveillance technology in San Diego. It requires the police to disclose what kinds of surveillance tech it uses. Um , to really clearly explain and justify its use of all of those technologies. And , you know , come to the conclusion that the the benefits of that technology outweigh the costs , both in terms of , of money and in terms of privacy. Um , so what Councilmember Foster wants to do is amend the trust ordinance to explicitly prohibit Alpa technology. So it's going a step further than just rescinding a policy and actually writing into the municipal code that these cameras , these license plate readers , are not allowed in the city.
S1: San Diego Mayor Gloria has remained in support of this technology and his statements today , foster called for Gloria to take a second look. What is the likelihood of a of a change in the mayor's stance here?
S3: I think it's pretty unlikely. The mayor issued a statement as recently as last week , when council member Steven Whitburn came out in support of ending the Alper technology in San Diego. Um , Gloria said at that point , he still supports the technology , sees it as a useful tool for law enforcement. He also said it assisted in it , has assisted in 900 criminal investigations , and it's allowed San Diegans to recover more than $8.7 million in stolen property. He also says that the city has taken steps to strengthen accountability. So now CPD is conducting weekly audits to ensure that when an officer searches the database , it's for an authorized use. We've seen some cases in other cities where an officer is tracking , you know , essentially stalking an ex-girlfriend or somebody that you know , is not suspected of a crime. And so , you know , the mayor says that type of thing is not happening in San Diego because we've created these safeguards that prevent it from happening.
S1: And the council would need the mayor's help to remove these cameras. Right? Absolutely.
S3: Absolutely. And you know it. Not only would he need. Would the council need his cooperation in terms of ending the contract , which , you know , is still in force. But he would also , you know , he can also veto anything that the council approves , and the council would need six votes to override that veto. Currently , there are only five council members who are publicly in support of ending alpine technology in San Diego. So not enough to actually override a veto from the mayor at this point. But at the press conference this morning , there were , you know , speakers who said it's because of the public outcry around this technology that we've gotten this far that we've , you know , built a majority on the council that opposes the technology. And so they asked people to continue that advocacy because , you know , they need either a sixth council member or the mayor to change their minds.
S1: In addition to privacy and other concerns raised by this technology , there's also a financial piece to it. How does this fit into the city budget? Yeah.
S3: Yeah. So back in June , when this was being discussed as part of the city's budget process , the Independent Budget Analyst's Office estimated that ending the contract with ubiquity would save the city about $2 million per year. And that's ongoing savings. So this year , the next year or the year after that , not a huge amount in terms of the total budget , which is billions of dollars , literally. But it would be enough to restore some of the cuts that the city had to adopt this year in order to balance the budget.
S1: So then after this committee vote in the council today , where does this effort by the council to rescind this contract go from here?
S3: So Council Member Henry Foster's office will work with the City Attorney's office to draft a more formal amendment to the trust ordinance to prepare this item for a hearing at the full City Council. Unclear when that hearing would happen. Um , you know , there are council members who will be no longer at the dais in just a couple of months following the election. So , uh , the hope from the council members in the committee meeting today was that they could get this directed at the full city council before then and , you know , as soon as possible. And that's at the discretion of the council president's office.
S1: I don't know if the numbers have been run on this , Andrew , but I'm just curious as , um , you know , the as we seek more money in the budget for law enforcement to make more law enforcement hires. Um , how does that square with these flock cameras and the the help that they provide in terms of actually doing the investigations?
S3: Yeah , well , it's a fair question. Those that question was actually raised in the committee meeting today. You know , if the police are always saying that they need this technology in order to free up the resources , you know , the the staff hours for the officers to investigate crimes or prevent crimes. Um , you know , what would the impact be if if they have to do an extra work , extra investigation? Um , but , you know , it's it's hard to say. I mean , this technology wasn't used prior to a couple of years ago , and , um , and I don't think , you know , well , there is definitely evidence that it's been used to solve some crimes , whether that has been , you know , a truly transformational , um , uh , kind of force multiplier for the police. I don't know if we have evidence that it's made such a dramatic difference , despite the fact that it has indeed made some difference. You know , again , the mayor said it's recovered more than $8.7 million in stolen property. That's real property that people actually needed , you know , or , you know , had lost. And so , um , I think that debate about the , the , the resources of the officers , the staff power that the city has will definitely continue as part of this conversation.
S1: I've been speaking with KPBS Metro reporter Andrew Bowen. Andrew. Thank you so very much.
S3: Thank you. Jade.
S1: That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
