S1: Welcome in San Diego. I'm Andrew Bowen in for Jade Hindman. On today's show , automated license plate readers are facing scrutiny in San Diego as privacy advocates push back and lawmakers debate limits on their use. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. Every day. San Diegans drive past cameras that capture their license plates in real time , collect that data , and send it to a third party database. They're called automated license plate readers , or Alpers. Currently , there are about 500 of them in the city of San Diego , and the debate around the use of this technology continues among police , privacy rights advocates and state lawmakers. Now , local community groups are joining in a national week of action against the technology. Seth Hall is an advocate with the trust SD coalition , which is a part of that movement. And he joins me now. Seth , welcome to the show.
S2: Thanks for having us.
S1: So first remind us what the trust SD coalition is and how it got started. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. Trust got started in 2019 when it was revealed that the city had installed a network of thousands of cameras on top of streetlights. And at that time , the city said that they didn't realize that they had done that and that they wouldn't have done that in the way that they did it if they had known what they were doing. And that inspired us to help write a new law to bring surveillance technology under the oversight of City Council , and make sure that there was a little bit more transparency , a little bit more community involvement , and a little bit more expert involvement , and to try to make sure that something like that couldn't happen again.
S1: Now , I wanted to distinguish from the get go between automated license plate readers and something like a speed camera or red light camera , which will only take one picture if someone if a vehicle is moving beyond the speed limit or is in an intersection at a red light , that's different from Alpers , right? Which are always capturing every vehicle and the license plate that goes by those cameras. So how does the ALP system work?
S2: Yeah , ALP systems have been around for decades at this point. Right. They are definitely different than the red light cameras that you just were talking about. The ALP are cameras , you know , from previous decades. Literally we're only trying to capture an image of your license plate. So they were positioned very carefully and they had very specific technology to accommodate that. Modern cameras of this nature are no longer we still call them ALP cameras , because that's the name that has stuck. But the reality is we've moved way beyond that at this point. So modern systems are really more like facial recognition for cars , right? So they are not simply looking for a license plate image. They are capturing everything about that car. What flock in this case calls the vehicle fingerprint. It's the the make the model , the color , the the direction of travel , the bumper stickers. You know , the whole the whole image is processed into data.
S1: And then how what happens with that data once that image is captured? Sure.
S2: Sure. Yeah. It's placed into a database and it is kept that way for however long the people who are operating that system choose to keep it for and from their people who use those surveillance systems can sit down and just type their questions directly into the software ask , hey , I want to know where this this type of vehicle was , or , you know , where did it go from where to where to where as it crossed multiple different cameras.
S1: And everyone is has having their car captured? Who passes by one of these cameras even if they're not breaking any traffic laws , not suspected of any crimes. They are captured in this sort of dragnet.
S2: That's correct. that it's important for us to know that while maybe people who promote this technology are focused on its use in criminal investigations , the reality is that it is running 24 over seven all day , every day in a wide area around San Diego.
S1: So what are the Trust Coalition's main concerns with this technology and how it's being used in San Diego?
S2: Yeah , we've been working with the city for years now to to try to accommodate this request that this technology be used in the city in a safe way. Right. So we've proposed many policies. We've worked with the city's Privacy Advisory Board , who's full of experts on what kind of policies would need to be in place to make this kind of system work while still being safe for San Diegans? Right. For minimizing abuse , for example , or not allowing the data to escape our control and go out and be usable by somebody else. For many years , we've worked with the city on that. Unfortunately , you know , we just haven't had the kind of success that we imagined that we would have when we set up the oversight program. So a lot of the recommendations from the experts are being ignored by the city. And certainly the community concerns are not reaching our leaders in a way that's convincing to them. So the last time the community came out during the budget cycle , we asked that the city not close mission Bay restrooms or public restrooms all over the city and instead take money from this mass surveillance system and put it to those kinds of good uses instead of closing libraries or rec centers and people for hours and hours. You know , asked that had that same request and that they they simply ignored that request. They declined that.
S1: So let's talk about flock. Flock is a company that makes a lot of this technology used in San Diego and across the country. For Alpers , it's been the subject of particular scrutiny around the nation. What have been some of the main controversies surrounding FLoC? And let's talk specifically in San Diego? Sure.
S2: Sure. FLoC in general , you know , if you're going to look up FLoC , you're going to see right now a lot of stories from all across the country of frustrated people taking matters into their own hands. That's what's happening in the news. So what's happening in San Diego , in San Diego? Obviously , the community has made a lot of requests over how this technology be deployed and be used. And frustration is also growing here because we feel like our leaders are also not listening to what people are asking , asking for in this city. In the meantime , we've had examples of like , we just had a recent story of a gentleman who spent 30 days in jail on the back of a floc read , and police guessing that the car that he was driving was a car that they suspected. Right. And that man's life is is probably forever altered. Behind that error. Right now he's suing the city and that's got financial ramifications.
S1: And he was innocent. Let's make it clear he was not. It was a it was a misread.
S2: I don't I believe that he has been cleared of that of wrongdoing. Right. But the lawsuit against the city is ongoing. And so nobody's nobody's giving any comment , right , about what's going to happen in the city now that we've had that incident , you know , how are we going to have accountability for that? How are how are you and I not going to end up in that exact same situation? No comment on that from anybody because that situation hasn't been resolved yet.
S1: So police have supported this technology. They generally oppose legislation that seeks to regulate it or limit its use. And they say that Alpers have been used to find car thieves , kidnappers , murderers , hit and run drivers , you know , and they say that these crimes would not be solved without this technology. How do you respond to those claims from law enforcement? Sure.
S2: Sure. I think law enforcement gets to say , you know , they have all the information on their side as far as how they use this technology. Uh , unfortunately , the the the proof behind that is not always ready , right? It's not always provided. We've offered many opportunities to the city to provide data that backfill some of those claims. I think San Diegans would be really interested to know if those claims really have substance to them , or whether they are just perhaps marketing items that have been offered by the company that wants to keep the technology in San Diego. Without the right transparency , we're not really sure that those claims actually can be verified. Right. The certainly we cannot know if those crimes would have been able to be solved. Right. And irrespective of those things , I think that the underlying problem there is one of of trust. Right. So if if people are going to go to jail for , for weeks at a time right behind false reads that shakes the trust in the community. And that's really a reason for the city to come out with more information , to be more transparent. And , you know , honestly , with with trust. Our approach here is if this technology cannot be used transparently and responsibly , then it really ought not be used at all , right? Because the people of San Diego deserve that level of safety. And if we can't give it to them , we really just need to hit the brakes on that.
S1: There have been some efforts at the state level to regulate Alpers and how the data can be collected , used , stored. What can you tell us about those efforts?
S2: Yeah , there's a there's an active effort going through the legislature right now. So that bill is a redo of a bill last year that was that was vetoed by the governor. But the legislature seems to somewhat agree that , for example , police departments who use this technology should not keep the data that they collect for longer than 30 days. And so there's a big fight about that in the legislature and with the governor. Uh , the one concern about that , and this is a concern a lot of people will recognize , is that the legislature moves at the speed of lawmaking. Meanwhile , just the other day , floc themselves due to a number of controversies that they're facing. Uh , came out and said they don't believe police departments should keep the data any longer than seven days. So now we have a law making its way through the California Assembly that pushes a best practice that is no longer a best practice. You know , and that's just the nature of this technology. It moves very quickly and can can change in very dangerous ways very quickly. So that's a that's something that the legislature is going to have to grapple with.
S1: We've got about a minute left. If someone wants to know if one of these cameras is in their neighborhoods , how might they go about finding out? Do we have a you know , do we know where all of the cameras are?
S2: Yeah , we have a good idea of them. You should look up the De FLoC app on your phone and that'll help. The police occasionally also will will publish a PDF on their website with some location information on them. So yeah , you know , it's a great question and I wish we knew better and more quickly where surveillance was deployed in San Diego. And I think maybe that's an important change that we need to make for the future of San Diego.
S1: Well , I've been speaking with Seth Hall. He is an advocate with the trust SD coalition. And Seth , thanks very much for joining us today.
S2: Thank you.
S1: And that's our show for today. I'm your host , Andrew Bowen in for Jade Hindman. Thanks for listening to Midday Edition. Have a great day.
