S1: Hey there , San Diego , it's time for KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. Reaction to the killing of a cartel leader led to violence and turmoil across Mexico earlier this week. What lasting impacts will it have for Mexico and Tijuana ? Then new reporting reveals efforts from federal officials to monitor local immigration activists , plus a story on how our expanding border barriers are harming wildlife in eastern San Diego. That's all ahead on KPBS roundtable. Mexico has settled from the unrest that struck parts of the country earlier this week. Vehicles were burned , blocking roads. Some buildings were set ablaze. All in reaction to the killing of a high ranking cartel leader Sunday. Here with more is Vicente Calderon. He's a veteran journalist in Tijuana. Editor of the Tijuana Press. Com Vicente. Welcome to roundtable. Hello.
S2: Hello. Thank you for having me.
S1: Great to have you here.
S2: In some areas we are still seeing problems of violence and even some blockades in some areas , although we've been learning little by little. More information , uh , thanks to the work of the reporters in the field and the different locations , because the government has been very opaque , very , um , not very willing to , to give us all the information. So things are way better than what happened on Sunday or even Monday. But still , there's cities with a lot of problems. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And take us back to to Sunday. Monday. Remind us briefly what happened. What took place.
S2: Well , after the surprising operation from the Mexican military to go after the leader of the cartel , Jalisco New Generation , one of the most violent and powerful drug organizations in Mexico , there was a big shootout , and they ended up killing El Manco with the AK , the name of the nickname of Oseguera Cervantes. But as a result of that , their minions , their accomplices , started to , um , trying to make some activity that will help them too. The idea is to capture recover the accomplices , but we saw more than 600 vehicles burn in around the country , more than 20 states. So the block roadways and burned cars and attacks them on businesses and even in banks that are run by the government. That that made a lot of terror. That is I mean , I don't think I'm exaggerating in saying that that terrorize many of the communities. People locked down on their houses and public transportation was suspended , many businesses closed. So that was the situation on Sunday. And in some areas , even on Monday , wasn't a high alert in many of these communities.
S1: And many of the images , reports , you know , you just kind of mentioned , we heard were from parts of Guadalajara , you know , the capital of Jalisco , other parts of Jalisco. But it did extend , as you mentioned , to other parts of the country.
S2: Most of those happened in Taiwan. The authorities , in my perspective , they kind of reacted rapidly. And also this situation , the reaction of the uprising of the people aligned with the cartel , Jalisco Nueva generation wasn't as strong here , but nonetheless. Also , people was very concerned here in Tijuana and in the adjacent communities Tecate , Rosarito and even in Ensenada. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And you've been speaking with a lot of different people about about these events over the past week.
S2: It's a very relatively , uh , term when you talk about violence , because we do have a big problem of violence regularly. Unfortunately , for several decades now , we have a more several homicides per day in Tijuana due to the drug trade and the fights between the different gangs and cartels that operate here in Baja California. So people is not that was surprised , but the fact that somebody that happened in 2000 miles out in Guadalajara , especially , or around the world , will have this impact in Tijuana. But unfortunately , people goes around their days like knowing that we went through this before and this could happen again. So people is going back to the relative normality , but also taking a cautious.
S1: I mean , before , you know , before last week's unrest , how would you sort of characterize the state of , you know , just how people were feeling ? You mentioned , you know , kind of people go about their normal business , but put it in perspective how things were looking before last week's events.
S2: Well , I mean , Tijuana has a very , like , different dimensions of their daily life. No. So there's the drug trade happening everywhere , but there's like a the beneath the surface. But and people is moving freely doing , going back and forth across the border and during their lives. This is a very still with all the problems of a very attractive city for many community. People from other parts of the country. So in general , people tend to move with always conscious about their surroundings because they know we have a long history that with the presence of different gang organizations and cartels , basically , uh , that some things can happen , change very quickly , very dangerously. But in general , I mean , if you are not involved with the drug trade , if you are not close to people , that is either laundering money , doing works or different works for the different gangs , you will be safe. Although , as in any other big city , we are around 2 million people in Tijuana. Uh , it's it's always danger can show up in unexpected places.
S1: You had some breaking news yesterday. The federal prosecutor's office in San Diego increased the reward for the capture of brothers Rene and Alfonso asked. Tell me about them and the new charges they're facing.
S2: So that was very surprising for me because I've seen stories about these two , uh , individuals from , ah , even before 2008 , when we have a big feud that increased the violence in those years in to around 2007 , 2008. Uh , they are the older of their brother. One of the two were , um , indicted yesterday with narco terrorism charges. Was the representative of the main leader of the faction of the Sinaloa Cartel , who was fighting against what was the Arellano Felix drug organization that bring the , uh , spike of balance that in those years , in 2008 , we went to up to 840 something homicides per year. Unfortunately , these guys have been able to evade authorities on both sides of the border , and now they are still a player of dangerous players , both the Alphonso and in his René , his younger brother. But they are still a prayer players here in the drug trade. According to the federal authorities , I was surprised that they. I'm assuming that now they have more information to to press charges against them , and that's why they take them so long. But now they are seen also what they talk about the spilling over the border of this violence. And we see around 2024 a couple of homicides , which is very unusual because , uh , those um , we have , uh , at least another US citizen that is acting as a lieutenant for the rival of the gangs. And he was , uh , the victim of targeted attempts , assassination attempts in San Diego. According to the different sources in this country and in the US. So the fact that after going after the Mexican authorities went against or after the leaders of the cartel , Jalisco new generation. And now we are seeing the pressure from the federal authorities going and one of the factions of the Sinaloa Cartel. It can be considered as promising that they want to keep the pressure. And I think this is something we will be very good to see. The all the authorities from one side of the other of the border put on pressure , or these organizations that are transnational.
S1: And you spoke with Roberto Quijano , he's president of the Citizens Council for Public Security in Baja. Here's a little of what he said. Kind of just pertains to what you were talking about.
S3: The problem is pretty deep. I mean , it's not only the capture of one individual that will solve the problem. I think consumption , uh , trafficking of drugs , capturing of drug lords , both sides of the border. I think those those are the issues that both nations must work.
S1: And there he's kind of tapping into what you were just talking about. And the responsibility. Maybe the United States has here.
S2: At least that shared responsibility. But I commend Mr. Quijano because is one of the few that is willing with with a lot of caution , but one of the few people willing to talk openly about this problem that we have. We understood that , for example , in some of the cases , the authorities have been forcing their party brothers to leave town due to the pressure at certain moments , but nonetheless , they are operating from a distance and still a relevant player. But again , this is something that's going to be tackled only if both authorities develop some confidence among themselves and are able to share information , information , share intelligence and share resources. Because again , we do have a problem of drugs being produced in Mexico and being transported through Mexico to the US. But the largest market is still in the US , and we also have a big problem of corruption in both sides. Not as much. Probably we have more government corruption in this , but still , I don't think they're so smart that there's none government corruption in the US. And also we don't have to forget about the problem of guns and the availability so prevalent in the US that is fueling many of the power , the crime , the dangerous power of the drug organizations in Mexico due to the contraband southbound.
S1: I want to turn attention , you know , to the United States , but kind of at a different level here. I mean , much of the media coverage here in the US has focused a lot on the plight of Americans in Mexico , maybe whether they should , you know , travel there.
S2: I mean , there's a lot of we have been complaining about has been an issue for many decades that many media outlets cover Tijuana from the San Diego Freeway. And that is a big problem. Uh , because , I mean , we do have questions about many of the Mexican reporters being cautious about the coverage because it could be dangerous. It's not that every day is dangerous , but could be become dangerous. I have a lot of colleagues that are very good doing great reporting. We have seen that in Tijuana and in this capital of the state of Sinaloa. Culiacan has been dealing with the violence for more than a year after the kidnapping of El Salvador , who was taken by the sons of El Chapo Guzman. So they are the US authorities , um , and and and around the country in Jalisco , the main the reporters of Mexico have been doing a great job , very brave and in very difficult circumstances. So I would like to see a better , more balanced coverage from the many media outlets. Uh , again , we do have some honorable , honorable exceptions from the US media , but also we have the same problem that you're seeing , like slanted coverage from some political issues in the US. We are seeing that towards Mexico , too.
S1: Uh , you know , as we wrap up here , we have about two minutes left. I'm just curious what questions you have in the coming weeks as the story developed.
S2: It's not an easy task. And also , we want to see if the pressure from the authorities in the US is changing to a more cooperative , cooperative , uh , approach , because that's when I think we can see some results. I mean , I know that if you take the heads , it doesn't guarantee you peace or the decreasing of the trafficking , but at least the balance can be subdued in a way that can allow people to do their normal life. Americans are not targeted in this case here in Mexico. But if you come looking for trouble and are not aware of your surroundings , this could be a dangerous situation for everyone and Mexicans and foreigners.
S1: I've been speaking with Vicente Calderon. He's a veteran journalist based in Tijuana and editor of the Tijuana Press. Vicente , thanks so much for being here and for. Yeah , just kind of sharing some of your insights with us this week.
S2: Thank you to you guys and your audience too. Thank you Andrew.
S1: When we come back , how federal officials are ramping up pressure for some local immigration activists. That's coming up on KPBS roundtable. Stay tuned. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. Four people were detained yesterday while observing immigration enforcement at a federal court downtown. New reporting also finds that Ice is monitoring activists who are documenting the agency's activities in San Diego. Daylight. San Diego's Kate Morrissey has been covering this , and she joins me now to talk more about it. Kate , welcome back to roundtable.
S4: Thank you for having me.
S1: I know this is strange for you. It's not the full crew of border reporters. We usually have you on poor. But , you know , you've been up to a lot this week and we wanted to kind of get to it. So , you know , you were at the federal courthouse yesterday. Volunteers were detained and cited there. How did that scene play out ? Yeah.
S4: So just to clarify , because I think this is something that confuses people a lot. There are three buildings down in that , like federal building space. Two of them are the federal courthouses where like judicial branch judges hear cases. And then there's the federal building where this took place. And the federal building is mostly offices , like the IRS is in there. Um , you know , different , uh , different federal entities , you know. Um , and so on the second floor , you have the Ice offices where people go for check in appointments. And then on the fourth floor , you have the immigration court , but immigration court is not a judicial branch court. It's an executive branch court , which is a little confusing. Um , and so just to sort of explain where this was taking place as a start was in that that federal building. Got it. Yeah. Um , it's supposed to be a public building. You know , you have to show ID to go in and say that you don't have weapons on you , but as long as you like , You're supposed to be able to go in and be in the public spaces and do your , your business with the , the federal government. Um , and so basically overnight at the , um , Federal Protective Service , which is responsible for sort of , um , protecting federal buildings in general , um , started , uh , implementing this new policy that they had put up on , on the walls and things like that , that said , um , it said no loitering. And then it specified no lying down , sitting or placing objects. Think like backpacks on the grounds in like , the hallways and other public spaces in the federal building. And so , um , that's a that's sort of an extension of these rules that came out in November that people were very worried about at the time that , um , sort of gave , gave some different powers to Federal Protective Service in terms of being able to charge people. Um , if they're going against federal regulations of how to behave in these spaces , um , and putting some limitations on , like , photography , videography , uh , if it obstructs official federal business , which is kind of vague. Um , and so activists have been worried since those rules came out in November whether something was going to change in terms of what's happening in the federal buildings. And all of that is important because , uh , since May of last year , these volunteers have been going to the Federal building because Ice has been arresting people outside of their immigration court. Hearings on the fourth floor , has been arresting people who show up for their check ins with the agency on the second floor. Um , they just moved a contractor office , uh , to that second floor as well , who also does check ins for people who are sort of being monitored while they go through proceedings. And , and there's been detentions there. And so these volunteers , there's there's two groups. One group does sort of like faith based accompaniment. So they pray with people. You'll see people huddled around a rosary in the hallway. Um , and then there's a second group that does more like documentation. So they take photo , they take video. They try to keep a count every day of how many people were detained. Um , offer support to the families. Uh , if the families are trying to figure out where did my loved one go ? How do I get in touch with them ? How do I find an attorney ? You know , they can provide point them to like the county's free attorney , resources for people who are in custody and things of that nature. Um , and so four of those volunteers were actually detained by Federal Protective Service yesterday. Um , they were told that they were loitering in the hallway. They were not blocking the hallway , but they were standing in the hallway not moving. And so initially they they left to go say , okay , what are these new rules ? They read the rules. They were like , well , we're not lying down. We're not sitting , we're not putting objects on the ground. They went back to their sort of Volunteer stations , and then Federal Protective Service said , you have to leave. Right now , the volunteers ask questions. Well , what does it mean ? Loitering. And Federal Protective Service said , okay , you're not complying. You're detained and we're going to cite you. And they ended up with tickets for about 280 ish dollars.
S1: And that that rule change kind of happened pretty suddenly. Right ? You mentioned this has been a longer process of these , you know , ice watchers developing their , you know , their approach of handling , you know , assisting , you know , folks. But these there was a pretty , you know , change there. And that's that loitering piece you were talking about. Yes.
S4: Yes. So that's the overnight change , these new signs saying no loitering without really explaining what it means , except for the the lying down sitting language , which is already in those regulations from November. Um , and so , you know , volunteers were like , what do you mean ? What is it that we're not allowed to do ? Can you please clarify and show us like where that is ? And so they were they were cited for noncompliance , basically.
S1: And you spoke to a few of the volunteers.
S4: They were frustrated in one sense because they feel , you know , called either by their faith or by sort of their First Amendment rights and to know , you know , know what's going on in the government and document , uh , what public officials are doing in public spaces. Um , and so there was a lot of frustration around not being able to do yesterday what they had come to volunteer and do. Also a determination to keep trying to do it. I know volunteers went back today. And actually , if you want to break a little news , a couple more people have been detained. Today I'm still , you know , trying to find out more information about the extent of it , but certainly they're not giving up on on this , this long term mission. And they also felt quite lucky that nothing more happened to them than a citation. You know , they watch people get taken down to the basement holding cells every day. And so , you know , to be able to still walk free and to not have had a more violent interaction when we've seen so many of those coming from federal officials recently. Um , yeah. They told me they felt quite lucky.
S1: And for more on that story. I mean , you mentioned it's it's changing score. KPBS border reporter Gustavo Solis actually interviewed one of those detained yesterday , and that'll be on Evening Edition program tonight as well. I want to move on to another story. You've had a lot of breaking stories this this week. And this is about something called Operation Road Flare. You look through court documents to discover that Ice is basically monitoring activists. Tell us more about , you know , what you found in those documents. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. So this was a law enforcement sensitive label document that was filed in a court case that I've been following in federal court , and this document had to do with a situation that happened at the 47th Street trolley station back in November , where a TikTok influencer was following ice ended up there Um , more um , people who document or protest Ice showed up to either document or protest. Um , and there was um , depending on which side you talk to. There was some violence that happened. The government sort of points at the protesters. The protesters say the government officials were the ones who were violent. Um , two of the the , um , people who had come to , to monitor ice ended up needing to seek medical attention afterwards. Um , and so this this document was sort of outlining the government's narrative of what had happened that day. Um , but what was noteworthy to me about it was that it was a document that was part of this thing called Operation Road Flare , which we had never heard about before. And according to that document , the operation started in October. It appears to be following particular activists who , um , document ice activity out in our communities. Particularly this TikTok influencer Arturo Gonzalez. His name was redacted in the piece , but it was pretty easy to figure out that they were talking about him. Um , Jean Wong her name was unredacted because it was in her federal court case. And then there were two appeared to be at least two other names in the document that were being redacted that I'm I'm still not sure about who those names are. And it's unclear how many more of these documents are in the operation , how many more activists are being monitored who might be in other documents related to the operation. But what this document does is confirm for us that at least here in San Diego , Ice , the federal government is monitoring the people who are monitoring it.
S1:
S4: Um , we have video in Minnesota of journalists being shot , like , you know , told you need to get back into your cars right now when they're on a public street filming ice. Um , we have heard so many people across the country claiming that , um , Ice or other immigration officials are taking pictures of their faces , telling them that they're going into a database or going on to a list. One of the people who was detained at the federal building yesterday told me that happened to him inside the federal building , actually here. Um , and , you know , the top officials in the Trump administration keep telling Congress that that there is no list , that there is no database. But why is it that so many of these officials keep telling people they're going into the database , and we're starting to see the ways that the federal government is trying to to sort of target and squeeze out and prevent people from documenting what it's doing.
S1: You mentioned , you know , earlier some of the breaking news , there's more happening. I mean , what are you following next ? Where do you go from here ? I probably have a busy afternoon after this.
S4: I have a very long list of stories that I'm working on , you know , but I am monitoring , like , what's happening at the federal building today. What's going to happen next week ? Is this going to affect , you know , people being able to get into immigration court hearings ? That's already been kind of a questionable area. I don't know if you saw last year , actually , when they first started doing arrests , um , outside the immigration court , um , I tried to go into one of the court hearings , which should have been a public hearing as a master calendar hearing. And there were there were other people in the room who were not having the case. That was before the judge. So it was open to the public per law , and I was tossed out. And so actually , the Reporters Committee for Press Freedom filed a letter with the immigration court saying , like , you can't do that either. Either it's open for everybody or it's closed for everybody. You can't selectively close it. And so there's still a lot of lingering questions around that. And so now that they're detaining , you know , detaining , citing people who are are waiting in these hallways or even they even tried to do that to some folks yesterday afternoon who were in the immigration court waiting room , which is where you're supposed to wait to be able to get into those court courtrooms if they're full at the time. Um , you know , it raises a lot of question about access to spaces that all of us are supposed to be able to see and watch and monitor.
S1: Well , it's been great reporting , and we appreciate you taking some time in your busy week to join us here today to talk more about it. I've been speaking with Kate Morrissey. She's an immigration reporter and co-founder of the news outlet Daylight San Diego. You can find all her recent reporting at Daylight San Diego. Kate. Thanks again.
S4: Thank you.
S1: Coming up , how expanding border barriers east of San Diego are cutting off bighorn sheep from precious resources. You're listening to KPBS roundtable. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. Often we bring you stories about the US-Mexico border and the divide it creates between nations and people. But that barrier between the U.S. and Mexico also impacts natural habitats that exist along the border and the animals that live there as well. I'm joined now by KPBS environment reporter Tami Murga , along with KPBS photojournalist Matthew Bowler. Welcome to roundtable , both of you.
S5: Thank you. Thank you.
S1: Great to have you here. So , Tammy. You have a pair of stories this week. Were you , along with Matt , report on how the border is affecting this population of bighorn sheep in the border desert region around Macumba ? Tell us more about those animals. And you know their life. Sure.
S5: Sure. Yeah.
S6: Yeah. It was honestly a really amazing opportunity to really get to see things firsthand in that border region. And so the big I mean , there are multiple animals that live in that region , but the bighorn sheep was really kind of the big focus of this group because they are endangered , I believe in the 1990s is when they were federally listed as endangered. And the cool thing is that we've learned a lot about them based off of GPS , caller data that these wildlife biologists have place , and that shows how they migrate. A lot of them , half of their life , they really spend on both sides of the country. Even now that we have this border wall , it really just shows us that , you know , like , uh , they were showing us from the sky. There's it's really one continuous habitat. And they for centuries have roamed that area for all sorts of resources. And even now , with a wall there since the 1990s , most of it , um , they still cross. They still depend on those , those sites. So it was really neat to , to see that.
S1: I want to talk more about that plane ride that you discussed. But first , Matt , I mean , I think you spent , you know , you grew up spending a lot of time in this area.
S5: But this desert is much further east and down the the mountain range from there , and particularly for the part when I did go to the Mexican side , that's a part of the desert that I haven't actually ever been able to visit before , because it's kind of inaccessible. We had to get a 4x4 to go out there and go down these jeep track roads. It was not it's not something tourists go. If you're going to hike on the other side. There's a whole series of hiking trails on the Mexican side that most people use to go hiking and camping and things like that. So it felt personally , it felt really kind of special. The the environment , it's like the mountains are like God made piles of rocks. There's no dirt. It's just it's just massive boulders. And they just go up for hundreds and hundreds of feet.
S6: It looks like a movie scene. It's unreal.
S5: It's totally otherworldly. And , uh , this was just the perfect time of year to go to with , uh , the weather was perfect. It wasn't hot. I , you know , going out in the summertime , it's a little much. We'll talk about the visuals there.
S1: There's also the visual of of the border barriers. Right. And it kind of a lot of points there is kind of where it ends. And this is sort of where we get to the story of , um , you know how this is impacting the , you know , the sheep. So , Tammy , you know , talk more about what's been changing. You know , as far as the border barriers there. Yes.
S6: Yes. So as I mentioned a little bit earlier , a lot of the border wall really was was taking shape. The steel bowlers taking shape in the 90s. Um , and there have been gaps along that border wall. And just specifically talking here. Right. San Diego Imperial area. Uh , and where it ends , it's almost like really abrupt. It's where nature kind of connects , where the ball , the border wall can't go up. It's these , like , really steep , uh , rugged walls , uh , mountains , as you were mentioning. And the wall stops there. But now , uh , under this larger plan by the Trump administration is to close a lot of those gaps. And right now , what they're doing before they can really get through all of the construction contracts and all of that officially going. They're putting these really large coils of concertina wire and , you know , we were there. I don't know , I would say maybe Matt , if you think like five feet or so. It's hard to tell.
S5: It's like there are at least two meters high. And I counted one section had I want to say six coils of concertina wires. And it's hard to understand. Like the wall goes into this mountain and the mountain is not it's not this gentle sloping like , you know , mountain scene. It's it's rocks. And and you did a stand up for the television piece in front of this and she couldn't we couldn't climb up any further because it was so steep. We kept sliding down the hill , and then you could see these concertina wires , and they had to run in order to lay this concertina wire up the entire mountain. Whoever did it , I don't know exactly who did it , but whoever did had to run guidelines. So they basically had to go mountain climbing up this mountain.
S1: Just to access.
S5: Just area. Yeah. Just to access.
S1: Concertina wire , just to kind of paint the picture. The way I was thinking about it , it's like what I see in World War Two movies , it's that , you know , that kind of like.
S6: It's very coil , large coils and.
S5: Barbed wire , I guess , is how most people understand it. But concertina wire shaped a little different. It's sharper. It's much sharper.
S1: So how is that than impacting the sheep that you all want. Right.
S6: Right. Well , like we mentioned in this area , these animals can pass through those really high mountains right where the border wall stops because they're really narrow. They can't get through there. But the mountains , that's that's totally their , their , their environment. They can do that. But a lot of what these wildlife biologists told us was that with these coils , these concertina wires , they don't understand that as a barrier. They don't think like , oh , I can just pass through this , right. They're going to attempt to cross it. And they could get stuck. They could get injured. And they're worried that they may even die if they're just stuck along that. So yeah , it was really kind of eerie to see to be out there. And you know , all the the only thing we were really seeing were crows that were flying , flying right over that.
S1: So , you know , I mean take us into how is Customs and Border Patrol responding to these concerns over the Big bighorn sheep ? Yes.
S6: So , um , a lot of of of the feedback that we got from the scientists and conservationists , even , uh , residents who live in that area and really value this habitat is that they've been putting in a lot of public comments. They've been emailing CBP. Hey , we want to see there's got to be a compromise. There's got to be a way for , you know , these animals to still be able to cross because that's working in other states. So they've asked CBP if they can incorporate small openings into the steel wall and also remove the the the concertina wire. CBP has , uh , has responded to them. And I also asked them to confirm. And they they confirmed , yes , they are looking for locations to install these small openings and just imagine them like the size of a piece of paper that are kind of like cut out on the wall. And there's camera footage in other states where they do have them. Animals like mountain lions are almost like squeezing. They're like snaking through these openings. And these conservationists also want larger ones large enough to accommodate animals like the bighorn sheep. But that's something that CBP is not open to. At least now what we've seen. But I think that they've they're really happy that these small openings is something they are willing to , to look into.
S1: And one of the experts , this conversation , you know , you spoke with was Christina Ayo Aiello , biologist with the Wildlands Wildlands Network. Here's a little of what she had to say.
S7: I think asking for no new border barrier is unrealistic , and we've kind of accepted that. But I think that doesn't mean we totally give up the effort for making things better for wildlife. I think we just adjust what we ask for and that is going to involve compromise.
S1: So , you know , you kind of broke down some of this compromise with the small wildlife passages. But I guess my question is , you know , well , what did the sheep do ? Right now , right now , they don't have access to that mountain pass. So you know what happens to them now. Right.
S6: Right. So I think it's important to understand that this this habitat really , again , without these walls , it's one area where they roam. And a lot of their I guess , to put it very simply , their water sources are in Mexico and their food is in the US per se. We really want to simplify it that way. And so when you cut off this axis , that means that at least let's talk about the Bighorn here. They're going to move further up north to try to find , you know , these water resources and more food , their lambing grounds , etc.. And in Mexico , as Matt found out , it's the same thing over there , right ? The animals there , when they have that access cut , they're going to trying to look for food further out south , and there's also a highway there. So on both ends , the further they're away , they go out of their home range. They're going to reach these highways that , at least in the US , are already considered a hotspot for roadkill. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And you mentioned this is pushing them further to the eight , right. Yeah.
S5: Yeah. Yeah. And the eight is , you know , super fast right. People go 75 miles an hour when they're when they're on the eight freeway on the Mexican side , the Rosa kind of winds down and it's a 40 K an hour speed limit. So it's a much slower rate. So the researcher that I was out with on on that on the Mexican side says that they have less roadkill because people are going slower so they can actually stop. And that's just the nature of the road. Although once you get all the way down the mountain into the desert , it's a it's a straight shot to , to Mexicali. So it definitely does speed up on that end of things. But through the mountains at least it's significantly slower on the Mexican side. Right.
S1: Right. And Tammy. Yeah. Talk a little bit about , you know , because there is a project hopefully to kind of address that and to minimize the impacts there on the eight. Tell us about that. Right.
S6: Right. And that's kind of what our story we decided to do like a two part thing here right in this part two really just takes us to that highlights that project. Like what are these efforts that are going on in the I-8 that as we mentioned , there's data that shows it's one of the most dangerous highways in California for bighorn sheep. So one of those efforts is to create a wildlife overpass. There are some underpasses in that area. But , you know , animals don't have , you know , these alerts or signs that can say , oh , I can. I know where to find this underpass. Right. So and they don't have these , these , uh , way to say , okay. It's safe to cross the road now. So , you know , an overpass is one of the projects that , um , a lot of , I think UC Davis is spearheading with , um , California agencies and a couple other non-profits and part of that project involves fencing pretty much this entire region of where the Interstate eight splits between the east and the west side. I believe it's between Ocotillo and Hot Springs , and this is a really , really important habitat for this subpopulation of bighorn there , because depending on the seasons , they will kind of cross back and forth to eat , to have their lambs there and their babies there. And so this area is where they want to add this , this crossing to pretty much divert where protect how how they cross this this road.
S1: And you spoke with Frazier Schilling from the , you know , director of the Road Ecology Center at the University of California , Davis. Here's a little of what he had to say on the project.
S8: And if we think about it , this is a nursery. This is a kindergarten. This is a the birthing room at a hospital. That's what this is. We need to protect the whole thing.
S1: So that kind of just puts an exclamation point on what you were just describing there. Tammy. Right. Um , this idea of. Fencing the highway there. Matt. I want to kind of zoom out a little bit with you both , literally and in the reporting here. Um , you know , I want to get your take on how you told the story visually. I mean , you have some beautiful images here. You both also took a plane ride to see the region from above. I'm wondering what stuck out to you from from seeing the border there in that perspective , seeing this habitat in , you know.
S5: Well , the the wall just cuts it in half. This is a desert shared by California and Baja , the Colorado desert area on that side of the on the east side of our mountain range there. So you can see , I mean , the line that the border wall draws and you can see the the wall going right up to these mountains and where they can't cross. It's it's really impactful to , to , to visualize that. Right. A lot of people I don't think who don't go to the border a lot really understand What a presence that wall has when it kind of cuts those deserts in half. Yeah.
S6: Yeah.
S1: Tammy , you know , this border runs , what , nearly 2000 miles long , runs.
S5: Right across the continent ? Almost.
S1: I mean , I imagine this impacts so many other habitats , uh , many other species. Obviously , you even mentioned some of the other , you know , animals other than the bighorn sheep you've been talking about , but wondering what questions you're left with after reporting on this story.
S6: Yeah , I think there's it'll be really interesting to see if what these conservationist scientists right now think is going to happen , if it will in fact happen. And at what number will these populations be impacted ? You know , there's a lot of efforts , even in Mexico. They're trying to put cameras right along the border to see what migration looks like right now. And when you permanently seal those gaps , what happens really and will , uh , vehicle collisions with Bighorn in fact jump because of these closures. So I think that's something that I'd really like to follow along.
S1: Well , it's great reporting. I encourage everyone to go check out the peace. I mean , we have just about a few seconds left. Matt.
S5: It's just such a special , delicate environment. Yeah , yeah.
S1: Well , you can find more of their work on KPBS. I recommend everyone for checking it out. I've been speaking with KPBS environment reporter Tami Murga , along with Matthew Bowler. He's a photojournalist here at KPBS. Matt , Tami , thanks so much for being here.
S6: Thank you so much.
S1: Before we go , we have a quick message from the KPBS newsroom. San Diego District Attorney Summer Stephan is disputing a story KPBS reported this month on racial disparities and special charges that can lead to life without parole. KPBS story relied on a data analysis from a researcher who attributed cases to Diaz based on disposition date. The DA's office provided an analysis that attributed cases to Diaz based on filing date. It showed no racial disparity in making these special charges against black and white defendants when looking only at multiple murder cases during da Stephan's tenure. KPBS has clarified the story to include more detail about the analysis and the data it used. Go to KPBS to learn more. That'll do it for this week's roundtable. Thanks so much for being here. You can always listen to the show anytime as a podcast. If you want to support the show , you can always leave us a review there as well. KPBS roundtable airs on KPBS FM. Noon on Fridays again Sundays at 6 a.m.. If you have any thoughts on today's show , you can always email us at roundtable at KPBS or leave us a message at (619) 452-0228. Roundtables. Technical producer this week was Brandon Truffaut. The show was produced by Ashley Rush , Brooke Ruth's Roundtables senior producer. I'm your host , Andrew Bracken. Thanks and have a great weekend.
