S1: Hey there , San Diego , it's time for KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. 2025 brought us no shortage of headlines and major stories. Today , we take a closer look at a few of the biggest ones in a roundtable. Year in review. The Trump administration upended immigration policy this year with a focus on increased enforcement and mass deportation. Then housing is always a big story in San Diego , and 2025 was no exception. And AI continues to grab headlines in the tech world. But it's not the only change that could have a major impact on our lives. That's ahead on KPBS roundtable. No single issue or reporting beat has seen bigger change in 2025 than immigration since President Trump took office in January. His immigration policies have had far reaching impacts that have been felt all across the country , including here in San Diego. Here to talk more about his reporting on immigration this year is KPBS investigative border reporter Gustavo Solis. Gustavo , welcome back to roundtable.
S2:
S1: I think you've been here a lot this year , you know , and we're going to talk about some of the stories that you've covered. I mean , a lot of it has been focused on changes in immigration enforcement. And I want , you know , take us back to March when you covered , you know , an immigration raid at a paint company in El Cajon.
S2: Right. If you remember , the first couple of months of 2024 , there were a lot of stories about what mass deportations would look like. A lot of news was coming out of LA and New York. That's where a lot of things were happening. But San Diego was relatively quiet until that raid in the industrial paint shop outside of El Cajon. Uh , and I remember it kind of being a turning point here in San Diego the day it happened. It was March. I was in the newsroom working on another story , and I just got a bunch of text about it , and I just got in my car and drove over there and saw it for myself. Uh , followed some of the families in the weeks and months that followed and really started to tell the story of the impact of mass deportations on folks who weren't previously targets for for that kind of enforcement. Right. Folks who don't have a criminal record have been here for a long time , are married to U.S. citizens , have U.S. citizen children. And you could just kind of see how that impacts a lot of different aspects of our community.
S1: And another raid that sticks out to me. You know , shortly , I think it was pretty shortly after that happened at a restaurant in South Park. And I think it was almost , you know , right before the the dinnertime hour , a lot of folks were out. It's a very popular neighborhood.
S2: North Park versus El Cajon. Uh , it was a Friday night. It was late Friday. I remember , um , our producer , uh , web producer Laura McCaffrey lived nearby , and she went over there and recorded a lot of things , did a couple of interviews with employees over there. And the what I remember from that one is just the. Palpable sense of anger from the community that responded. It's like a South Park showed up for them. They didn't like what Ice was doing. There were a lot of people out there on the street protesting , um , passively blocking vehicles , shouting at ice , saying things like shame and things like that. Um , I , the federal agents had to or didn't have to , but they deployed , uh , bang grenades to disperse the crowd. And afterwards , there was a big pushback from the political class of San Diego , the mayor , city council members , a couple of representatives from Congress organized a press conference to speak out against it. And that was the first time the political class that kind of acted and spoke out against it. Now , all they did was speak out against it. And they wrote a strongly worded letter to DHS Secretary Kristi Noem asking them to investigate the incident. And that kind of went nowhere because the escalation just continued. But it was a bit of a sea change. And that's what all this year has been. Um , ice tactics becoming more aggressive , escalating and community responding to it. And my work has just been documenting that right from the workplace raids to other things we'll talk about , right ? Courthouse arrests , green card arrest , people checking in , the expansion of detention at the detention center. It's just been a steady progression of mass deportations.
S1: You know , when I dig more into that. But first , you know , earlier you mentioned how you know , this story in March , this immigration raid at that El Cajon Paint company was really where it kind of hit home in San Diego. But you'd been following , you know , some of these mechanisms being put in place in other parts of the country. I'm just curious how you balance your reporting with like , what's happening in San Diego , but obviously covering changes in migration , covering changes in immigration. And you know , how you approach that in your day to day work.
S2: Yeah , it's a tricky balance because I'm not a national reporter. Right. I work here at KPBS. I report on things happening here in San Diego. I don't want to bombard our viewers with story after story. If things aren't happening here in San Diego because you get kind of trauma , fatigue , exposure , fatigue. I don't want to overwhelm people , right. Especially immigrant communities , especially our listeners who are in mixed status households or are undocumented themselves. You don't need the extra stress of hearing another story about something happening in another state. So I do keep track of it for myself just to know what's happening in this space. But I will , generally speaking , only write on it if it's happening and impacting people right here in San Diego. But in terms of tracking it , I mean , I have a running Google doc in my computer that goes back. I think it was like 15 pages at this point , starting in February , just grabbing different headlines , different academic studies , different tweets , trying to document , I call it the bibliography. And I've just been documenting every little , uh , little and big thing that happens in this space.
S1: And sometimes changing quite rapidly.
S2: Oh , day to day , day to day. There's like you asked somebody about legal advice and it'll be outdated in a month. You know. Yeah.
S1: Another story you covered , I think you mentioned this was the Trump administration's push to revoke student visas for international students.
S2: Right. The Columbia student in New York and the other student in Boston. They were outspoken critics of how the Israeli government was handling Gaza , the increasing death toll of civilians over there. And they wrote op eds and were actively protesting against what was happening over there. I thought that was very noteworthy because the conversation , at least in the campaign , has always been , you know , the conservative point has been illegal immigration is bad. We're going after illegal immigration. We're not against legal immigration. But here was a case of all these students were on student visas. They are legal immigrants , but they were targeted because of their speech and the State Department. Marco Rubio has the authority to essentially revoke these visas for for. Specific purposes. In this case , I think it was a sort of threat to national security purpose. But you essentially create a new class of undocumented immigrant from someone who was documented. You just removed that documentation. So I thought that was a really important escalation of what the administration was doing. And it had implications here in San Diego. So I spent a long time trying to find students willing to talk about this. Um , but they were rightfully terrified to speak out. They didn't want to be made an example of like , the folks in the East Coast. So I was able to finally get one student who , you know , thank goodness , was brave enough to talk about this. But we did take a couple of precautions , right ? Didn't share their name when we interviewed her , altered her voice a little bit and didn't show her face at all. And we were transparent about it , but it shows the what's at stake for some of these students , right ? It's your education. You've devoted years of your life to this. You're staking your future career , earning potential on this , and for it to be taken away because you disagree with a foreign policy decision or humanitarian decision. I it was I mean , I hadn't seen anything like this in immigration space before. So , yeah , it obviously stood out.
S1: In , you know , speaking to the interviews you've done this year , you've featured the stories of other families impacted by some immigration enforcement. Can you talk a little bit more about how you approach those conversations , as you said , with with necessary sensitivity and with people with a lot , you know , a lot on the line here as well.
S2: Yeah , it's tricky because I want to get the stories out there. But I'm also very conscious of the fact that I'm asking people to open themselves up and be very vulnerable in a time where that bowl , like being that open , could have consequences. Consequences for us. Yeah. So I'm , um. I grant them their agency. Right. Obviously , I will only talk to people if they want to talk to me. We'll have a conversation about what level of protection they want , if they want any at all. A lot of folks , thankfully , have said no. We want to be transparent. You can use our name. You can use our photo. You can welcome we welcome you into the house. But it takes a long time to build up that trust. Right. I've been in this beat for for almost a decade now here at KPBS the last four years. And in those four years of work , I think I've thankfully , I hope that the work kind of speaks for itself , and it establishes a certain level of trust in the community that people will trust me with those stories.
S1: You know , on immigration enforcement. The big story hasn't just been about the numbers of arrests , but also where the arrests are happening. One of those places was immigration courts here in San Diego. Another began happening at green card appointments , for example. Right. Can you talk about you know , what those changes mean ? And I don't know what we should take from them , as we're kind of wrapping up the year in this story of immigration 2025.
S2: Yeah , I think that's it falls under the story of escalation targeting different groups that previously were not targeted. Right. For for folks to understand throughout much of our modern history , Bush , Obama , Biden , the enforcement priority has been a recognition that we have limited resources at the federal government , and we can't deport everybody. So we're going to narrow the pool of people we prioritize to folks with criminal convictions and recent arrivals who haven't really established roots in this country , and we're going to focus on them. What the Trump administration has done. Well , they got more funding , $104 billion. But even before that , they removed the priorities and just said , anybody in this country without status is a criminal. And they're all. Since they're all criminals , we're going to prioritize all of them. And you see sorry , you see this expansion with the arrest in immigration court. I think that's really significant because you're targeting a population that is trying to , quote unquote , do it the right way. They're showing up to court. They are filing the paperwork , they are getting attorneys. They are trying to do everything by the book to legitimize their status here , by going to court and arresting those people and throwing them into detention centers. They still have the court proceedings. They just do it from the detention center instead of doing the freedom from their own house. But you're using it as a punitive measure. You're ripping families apart. You're removing them from the community. You're forcing them to live in a in a system that , you know , 30 people have died in immigration detention this year , more than during Covid , so it has real life consequences. And I think that expansion of targeting this class of people , who is doing everything by the book , doesn't have criminal records or showing up to court. That's something that I don't think most Americans would agree with. While most Americans polling shows most Americans do agree with prioritizing deportations of folks who don't have status and have been convicted of violent felonies. Hell yeah. Let's deport those people. Let's focus on those people. But it becomes a gray area and support really drops when you're talking about Gardner , who's been here for 20 years , has two children but really hasn't adjusted their status. Right. There's two different classes of folks we're talking about.
S1: You kind of touched on a little bit. Some like the legal aspects here , and I want to dive into some reporting. You did , you know in November you profiled this legal trend , I'd call it , of immigration lawyers filing habeas corpus petitions.
S2: That was one example of multiple , but of folks who disagree with what the government is doing and are trying to do something about it. Right. So if I break down my reporting from like the first half of the year to the second half of the year , I see the first half as documenting this escalation and seeing the real life impacts of what mass deportations look like. Second half is exploring a little bit more of the response , the local response from mutual aid networks , from even courthouse arrest. Right. There were volunteers going to the courthouse to at least witness and document them , and maybe put pressure on the agents to not arrest as many people in the detention space. There are people visiting folks in detention just trying to offer them emotional support. Right. Hey , you're not alone. We're we're here for you in this legal sense. I thought it was really interesting and almost inspiring to see that across the country there are these lawyers organizing and coming together to file this legal response. And what's great for from the reporter's perspective , what's amazing about that is that it's all playing out in court. I can see the documents , I can track it. It's all very transparent. So I can show exactly how many cases are being filed and how many district courts , what the story is , the habeas petitions they tell the story of , of how folks were detained. I mean , some of these people were day laborers in Los Angeles who got caught up in those raids. Other folks live in other states. I'm thinking Georgia and Florida , where local police in those states work more closely with Ice. So a couple of them got stopped for minor traffic violations. But because of that coordination between local and state , I'm sorry , local and federal agencies in those states , a simple traffic stop becomes an ice check and they end up here in Otay Mesa. They can't get out because the administration has made it a lot more difficult to get out of the detention. You some people don't have access to bond and parole hearings anymore. So you have to file these federal habeas petitions , which was also kind of another eye opening thing. Right. The idea in the US that you can be thrown in jail and not be given a chance to , to have your day in court , to pay bond , to have a parole hearing , to just be detained indefinitely. That just sounds un-American to folks who just grew up with with our system of justice. But you need to explain that immigration court is separate than criminal court and just how complex the system is.
S1: There's so much happening this year , and I imagine it's going to not let up for next year. And I know the courts are going to be kind of play a major role as well. Gustavo Solis is KPBS investigative reporter. He's also been one of our most frequent guests for 2025. And I want to thank you for that. You can find more of Gustavo's work , as always on KPBS. Gustavo , thanks so much and happy holidays.
S2: Thank you , I appreciate it.
S1: Up next , we turn our attention from immigration to housing. What changed for San Diego's housing picture in 2025 ? That's ahead on roundtable. You're listening to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. San Diego housing has long been dominated by the single family home , but in recent years , we've seen a big push for new forms of housing that are more affordable and easier to build. 2025 was no exception , though it also was a year that saw some pushback to recent changes. Here to walk us through the year in San Diego. Housing is KPBS Metro reporter Andrew Bowen. Andrew , welcome back to roundtable.
S3: Thank you.
S1: Andrew , thanks to have you you know , great to have you here. So you've characterized the theme of San Diego housing , I don't know , over the last few years to be build baby build. Did that change in 2025.
S3: It did slightly I would say. So. I've been on this beat for a little over ten years now. And really , there's been a growing acknowledgment , a growing consensus among San Diego politicians and advocacy groups that San Diego really needs to increase the supply of housing if it's going to be serious about making it more affordable to more people. And so it's been updating community plans to allow more dense housing near public transit and on major streets and corridors. It adopted a new density bonus program about ten years ago that , you know , if a developer sets aside a portion of its homes as affordable housing , then it can build extra units and get relief from height limits and setbacks and things like that. And so , you know , that's where all of this has been going. Every housing reform that the city has adopted has been in pursuit of more housing. Well , this year was the first that I can recall where they actually rolled some of that back in a pretty significant way. And it was with the city's accessory dwelling unit bonus program. So most , if not all of the changes to the city's zoning have been in areas that are already zoned for apartments. So instead of 20 units , you can build 40 units , you know ? Um , it has not really , in a significant way , touched single family neighborhoods , except for the Accessory Dwelling Unit bonus program. So if you own a single family home , it's within a reasonable walking distance of a major public transit stop. Previously , you could build a technically unlimited number of accessory dwelling units in your backyard , and this has led to a lot of backlash from single family homeowners. So in January , that all came to a head in the city Council took a really surprise and kind of a sudden , unexpected vote asking for this bonus program to be repealed.
S1: And sort of the journey of it , because at one point it seemed like it was close to like an altogether ending the city's Adu bonus program. Right. But , you know , walk us through , you know , where we started with that and how we ended up. Yeah.
S3: Yeah. So , you know , it was a city council meeting on an unrelated topic , but there were a lot there was a lot of discussion of the Adu bonus program. And so it was just one motion from a council member that said , I think we should ask the mayor to repeal this program , and all the other council members were left and very they had to make a decision very quickly about whether they were going to vote yes or no on it. And and that motion passed. So what happened after that was that the city planning department decided , okay , we're going to come back in a couple of months and we're going to present some changes to the program , not a total repeal , but maybe scale it back a little bit. And there was a lot of back and forth between the city planning department and the city council offices about exactly how they should change it. Um , you know , I did some reporting , some sort of enterprise reporting on the initial changes that were proposed and where the city wanted to completely end the Adu bonus program , and most of those areas where they would , you know , reduce the opportunities to build this lower cost type of housing. We're in fairly wealthy neighborhoods and predominantly white neighborhoods. And so , you know , there are certainly some that raises some questions about equity and where the city is focusing its growth. Um , you know , if it's allowing more housing opportunities in , in high opportunity neighborhoods with good schools with low levels of air pollution , things like that. And so yeah. Ultimately what got past was was a pretty dramatic scaling back of the program , but not a total gutting.
S1: And so , you know , you mentioned some of this enterprise reporting. You did you did take a look back of like the last several years of , of San Diego , you know , housing , especially in the wake of a lot of these reforms have been happening to take , you know , tell us more about what you found. Yeah.
S3: Yeah. So we partnered with Voice of San Diego and a news source for this series called In Whose backyard. And it all really ? Um , this series was built on a large data set that we got from the state of California with housing permit data from 2018 to 2024. So we were able to see in very great detail where each city , not just San Diego , but all the suburbs as well , where they have permitted new homes and what type of homes as well. So where are the ADUs getting built ? Where are apartments getting built where our duplexes and townhomes getting built. And so it provided this really detailed picture of where our city is and our region is growing. And one thing that I found is that the vast majority , or the highest concentration of growth is happening in the city's urban core. So downtown , Bankers Hill , Hillcrest , North Park , these are the areas where we're seeing , you know , we created this 3D map where you've got little vertical stacks that represent , you know , how much housing is being built or permitted in a , a specific geographic area. And so you see these , you know , towers in downtown and Bakers Hill and these really walkable urban neighborhoods that show , you know , this is where these are the results of all of these policy changes that we've adopted over the past ten years. So the city , you know , removed parking requirements for apartment and condo buildings if they're close to public transit , and they also adopted a lot of community plans. I mentioned the density bonus program. And so we're seeing , you know , a real concentration of growth in these really from a policy perspective where we want to be seeing that growth , where , you know , you can assume if they're building 100 units in Banker's Hill , right next to bus lines and bike lanes and things like that , really close to job centers , we can assume that all of those people who live in those homes are less likely to depend on a car for every single thing , every air in they have to run or every , you know , getting to work and back , things like that. So , you know , it's it was a great opportunity , I think , to sort of take stock of all of the reforms that have been passed in recent years and see how they're shaping up.
S1: A lot of the stories you do on housing , I know , get a lot of reaction.
S3: I mean , certainly a lot of advocates have been pushing for this type of change. We want , you know , wanting to see more home building and walkable neighborhoods. There's it's not just sort of an environmental reason for for wanting that type of growth , but also quality of life. I think people a lot of people enjoy living in a neighborhood where they can walk to cafes or restaurants or more. A doctor's , a market , yeah , farmer's market , doctor's appointments , things like that. And so , you know , I think it was a validation of a lot of of what people have asked , been asking for and hoping for.
S1: One thing that can get a little confusing about San Diego's housing picture is just there's , you know , local housing reforms like we've been talking about , but there's also ones at the state level and they don't always correlate , or sometimes they kind of cancel each other out. Can you talk a little bit about how , you know , how that relationship works and how we should be thinking about that ? Yeah.
S3: So , you know , there's this really long tradition in California that land use questions are a matter of local control. So , you know , a city and a mayor and a city council know best better than those politicians up in Sacramento how to plan for growth in their communities. Well , the the sort of , um , uh , the downside to that approach where really giving cities and counties a great deal of authority is that , um , housing is a regional issue. So , you know what , what San Diego does impacts what Chula Vista does , and what Encinitas does or doesn't do can impact what Oceanside does. You know , so these are these are things that , you know , the the lines on the map of where city boundaries exist are not always , um , you know , the there's there's a lot of interplay between those things. And so we've seen to a growing extent , a lot of state lawmakers or state legislation coming forward and saying , we need to level the playing field here. It's not fair for the city of San Diego to be taking on all of the housing obligations in San Diego County. Suburbs like Encinitas and , you know , and Escondido have to do their part , too. And so , you know , some of these ideas have actually come from San Diego. The city's density bonus program , which I mentioned , was expanded into state law. And so , you know , there's a lot of this is sort of like the policy innovation lab of local government , where when an idea is working pretty well , it tends to , you know , be adopted elsewhere. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. I mean , talking about , you know , the state level piece this fall , Governor Gavin Newsom signed another housing related bill into law , and that was SB 79. And that eases housing restrictions near public transit in certain areas. You spoke with UC Berkeley housing expert Ethan Elkind in October , soon after he signed that. And here's some of what he told you.
S4: Well , I think this is the most significant housing bill that's ever been passed in California. There certainly have been a lot of bills that have , over time , restricted the housing growth in the state and led to the extreme shortage that we have. But to my knowledge , there is no bill that is as impactful as SB 79 in terms of just its broad effect in some of the state's key regions , the high transit frequency neighborhoods that have traditionally been squelching housing growth.
S1:
S3: It's a really significant housing bill , has the potential to do a lot of change to how our cities are growing. Um , what SB nine does SB 79 does just to kind of lay it out on the table is within a half mile radius of a major public transit stop. So a rapid bus stop , a light rail , heavy rail , uh , a developer or property owner can build multi-family housing. So if there's a single family zoning from a city This S.B. 79 law will overrule that zoning and allow additional density. And so this is you know , there have been various efforts in Sacramento to pass a law like this. And this was the one that finally actually won approval. And in San Diego , you know , I think it's definitely going to have an impact , particularly in those neighborhoods that are close to light rail. So our trolley system , you know , has a pretty good ridership among the best in the in the country. And , uh , you know , in those areas where you've got a trolley station and then across the street or 1 or 2 blocks down , you've got really low density zoning , those properties will be up for , you know , for potential growth. And so I think that's really where the potential could be. And and we saw , you know , some resistance from the city to actually up zone those areas and allow for that transit oriented development that it says it once but doesn't always follow through on. And so , you know the SB 79 , I think it'll have probably a bigger impact in LA and San Francisco , because those cities have actually been more resistant to the kind of zoning changes that that would allow growth near public transit. San Diego's done a lot. But , you know , we could also look at North County in the sprinter stations and the coaster stations. I mean , Solana Beach has permitted very little housing , and yet it has an Amtrak station and a coaster station. And so I think we'll have to watch what happens in those communities as well.
S1: We have just a few minutes left here , but I want to , you know , at least touch on one more recent story you've covered. And that has to do with new community plan updates for the neighborhood's Claremont and College area.
S3: And , you know , both neighborhoods with access to the trolley. And so certainly potential for. you know , a capitalizing on the public investment in that , in that high quality public transit infrastructure in Sdsu or , sorry in the college area that that. Okay. So both of these community plans were last updated in 1989. So obviously a lot has changed in the city since then. And the needs of those communities have changed and in particular in the college area. You know , you have a lot of students who are crowding into multi bedroom apartments , even doubling or tripling up in garages. And so the community plan update , there was an effort to build the kind of a safer and more high quality housing for students. Um , and you know , I'll just also note that this SB 79 could really come into play in both of these communities , because while the city did zone for higher density near these trolley stops , there were some there were large parts of the community that they chose to leave intact that not change the zoning at all. And that's particularly true in Bay Park in a sort of western area of Claremont. Within walking distance of the trolley. There has been a debate in that community for more than a decade , even before the trolley extension got built there. Of whether or not the city should allow higher building , taller buildings , you know , on a slope. So a lot of people love their views of mission Bay. And there's a lot of resistance to , you know , allowing a multi-storey development there. And so , you know , we saw in SB 79 kind of the state really losing patience with cities like San Diego where , you know , you have this high quality infrastructure , and yet the city's not choosing to zone for a level of density that would really provide the , the , the people within walking distance of that transit to live there. Interesting.
S1: Interesting. So we'll be following that. I'm sure , into the new year and see where that goes. I've been speaking with KPBS Metro reporter Andrew Bowen. Andrew , thanks so much and again happy holidays.
S3: My pleasure. Thank you.
S1: Coming up from artificial intelligence to the prospects of limitless energy. We take a look at some of the biggest science and technology stories of the year. You're listening to KPBS roundtable. You're listening to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. So each week on the show , we sit down with San Diego journalists covering some of the biggest stories here in our region. And many of the journalists work right here in our newsroom at KPBS. Their names , you know , voices you recognize. Longtime KPBS listeners are familiar with the name Thomas Fudge. He's worn many hats since he started at KPBS back in the late 90s. For years , he covered important San Diego issues as a reporter , also as a talk show host on These Days. Now you know him as KPBS science and technology reporter , but that soon will be changing. In just a few weeks , he will be calling it a career here at KPBS , and we wanted to chat with him a little bit before that happens. Thomas joins me now to talk about some of the biggest stories of the year on the science and technology beat. Thomas , welcome back to roundtable.
S5: Hey , Andrew. Good to be here.
S1: Great to have you. So it's impossible to really talk science and technology in 2025 without the two letters that I think , you know are coming.
S5: AI , artificial intelligence. Yeah. It's been a big.
S1: Focus of your beat. I know this year.
S5: It it is in our lives already. It's already affecting the things that we do , the games that we play , the work that we do. And one big concern about artificial intelligence , of course , is whether it's going to eliminate some jobs because it can do certain things better than humans can , certainly much cheaper than humans can. And that is happening. I talked to some folks at UCSD who are spending a lot of time thinking about this. In one example that they gave was , um , computer science people. There used to be a lot of computer science people who would work on codes to create software. Well , you don't need those people anymore because AI can do that. And there are lots of other examples of repetitive kinds of tasks that humans really don't have to do anymore because it can be done by a learning computer.
S1: And I think , you know , some of the impacts , particularly the concerns , are impacting more junior employees. You mentioned computer programmers , and that's one thing I hear is , you know , those entry level , you know , computer science majors , you know , not being able to finding the jobs that they might have found a few years ago because of some of these AI tools. Yeah.
S5: Yeah. And it's and it's going to change some , some more from that. I mean , we're we're really sort of in the beginning of artificial intelligence. Uh , what what they call the stage we're at today is narrow AI , where artificial intelligence can do one task really well. But then after that , what we're expecting is what they call general AI , where , uh , an AI program can multitask and do lots of things much like a human can. And then in the future superior AI , where , um , artificial intelligence is actually superior to us intellectually.
S1:
S5: Okay , but but data.
S1: Oh , sure. Yeah.
S5: Yeah. Commander data is sort of the , uh , a very good example of how science fiction writers imagine the future of artificial intelligence. And it's coming.
S1: So , Tom , according to your reporting , UC San Diego has created an artificial intelligence major made AI literacy a big part of learning goals right now.
S5: Because AI ChatGPT is available to students , students know how to use it. Although one of the professors I talked to there said not necessarily. All students are excited about AI , There's some that are that there's some that really don't want to have anything to do with it. But it's but it's there. And of course , the big concern is whether students are going to use it to cheat on papers. A more nuanced approach to that is to ask the question , well , what can AI do and what is left for the student to do ? One example was a student who wanted to analyze a lot of different sort of a period of time when people were coming out with theories about a certain thing , and she used AI to sort of summarize all that , and then after that chose what she really wanted to focus on. And I think that's a good example of how maybe AI should work in education , that it does kind of the grunt work and the summary work , but then identifies the thing that you really want to focus on , and that's the thing that you focus on and you analyze. That's the way AI could work and maybe should.
S1: Work , sort of like a research helping tool. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
S5: Right. And and that's true of journalists , right ? Because , you know , there's a lot of stuff that we just kind of have to Google and research to get background. Well , you know , maybe we can just use AI to do that. And , um , is that cheating ? I don't know. Yeah.
S1: Yeah.
S5: And we'll but it's a possibility and it's something we're going to be using. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And it'll be interesting to see how those develop over the coming years. Um , you know , one aspect of AI that's hard to ignore is that it just requires a lot of energy. I think a lot of water as well , but a lot of resources. And with that means money. And that kind of connects to another big story that you've covered quite a bit this year. And that's nuclear fusion. Yeah. Can you , you know , just remind us what exactly does that mean in sort of layman's terms ? Yeah.
S5: Just getting back to the energy use of AI. I mean , like , I've , I've heard that one data center , AI data center can use as much energy as a small city , so there's a huge demand for energy to run this thing that we call AI. And yeah , that's maybe where , um , nuclear fusion comes in. Nuclear fusion , for those who are just real beginners on the subject , is when you fuse two atomic nuclei together and create a heavier nucleus , and that forces the atom to release a huge amount of energy. This is what happens on the sun. This is what happens , you know , in the stars we see in the sky. And nuclear fusion is something that scientists have known about theoretically for a long time. But the question of how do you harness it ? How do you create it on Earth that doesn't have nearly the gravity of the sun ? How do you do that ? And that's been very tricky. And that's been the challenge.
S1: As you mentioned , this is kind of concept has been around quite a bit. We've known how to do it , but to kind of harness it.
S5: That's what they say , virtually limitless energy. But of course , the step you've got to take before you can get there is very difficult. You need to create an oven , so to speak , that can get so hot that it's as hot as the sun , even hotter than the sun in order to fuse these atoms. And then you need to capture the energy , and then you need to channel it out to a place where it can boil water and run turbines and create electricity , just like we do now. But you're doing it with a with a different source. So the promise is great and it does look like we're getting closer and closer. They have developed enormous magnets. I mean , magnets that are , you know , whose power you can barely even imagine to contain , um , what they call that plasma , or those plasma shots where fusion takes place. And they have developed lots of different technology , and a lot of people are working on it. We're working on it here in the United States. Here in San Diego. General Atomics is a big player in this game. They're also doing it in China. As a matter of fact , I've heard that China is the government of China is spending twice the amount of money on fusion research as we are. So they're a big competitor. Lots of people are working on this , and the anticipation is that we may actually be producing fusion energy for American customers Sometime in the coming decade , sort of , sort of at the end of the coming decade. That's that's the hope.
S1: So , Tom , you know , transitioning away from your most recent role as science and technology reporter. I want to talk a little bit about your career here. I mean , you're retiring at the start of the new year. I want to say first , congratulations. I know a lot of thank you. Miss you. Your reporting , your great reporting as you've just been talking to us about.
S5: I mean , nobody knows what the future is going to bring. I guess one thing I would like to say about being a journalist is it's it's been a privilege to be able to spend my career continuing to learn , meeting all sorts of interesting people and telling their stories , and sometimes getting close to that thing that we call the truth. It's really been a privilege. And and I'm so grateful that I've been able to spend my career this way now , in the future , it's kind of hard to tell , because journalism used to have these economic models that worked really well. I mean , the daily newspaper , they sold ads , they sold , they had classified ads. They made a lot of money. They did very well. But ever since I graduated from journalism school in the late , um , in the late 80s , employment to daily newspapers has just fallen and fallen and fallen. And so that economic model is just not working anymore. Now , here in public radio , we've got a pretty good economic model , but we got a hit recently , just this year when the federal government said they were going to defund the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. And so there's a chance that that funding may come back , you know , when we have a different administration or we may just have to get used to it. So it's always that tricky thing figuring out the economic model. But I do believe that facts are important , and it's important to have some people who are dedicated to , uh , at least trying to find the truth. And I think there will always be a demand for journalism. We just don't know what it's going to look like.
S1: Well , Thomas , I want to thank you for joining us , not just today , but also for all you've given , all the facts you've unearthed here at KPBS over the years. I know it's meant a lot to me personally , but also so many KPBS listeners and viewers as well.
S5: So thanks. Thanks.
S1: Thanks for being here. And yeah , best of luck and happy holidays. Okay.
S5: Okay. Happy holidays to you and to you all.
S1: That'll do it for this week's roundtable. It's also our final episode for the year , and we want to give you all a sincere thank you for listening. You can listen to the show anytime as a podcast. If you want to support the show. You can also leave us a review there as well. KPBS roundtable airs on KPBS FM at noon on Fridays again Sundays at 6 a.m.. If you ever have any thoughts on today's show or future shows , you can always email us at roundtable at KPBS or leave us a message at (619) 452-0228. Roundtables technical producer is Brandon Truffaut. The show is produced by Ashley Rush. Brooke Ruth is roundtable senior producer , Quinn Owen is supervising audio producer , and I'm your host , Andrew Bracken. Thanks again for listening and happy holidays.
