S1: Welcome in San Diego. It's Jade Hindman on today's show. Donald Trump has used social media to make bizarre attacks on the Pope. We'll talk about his pattern of mocking Christianity. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. So this week , the president launched a series of bizarre social media attacks against Pope Leo. He called the American born pope weak on crime and terrible for foreign policy.
S2: I don't like it. I'm not a big fan of Pope Leo. He's a very liberal person , and he's the man that doesn't believe in stopping crime.
S1: And just to be clear , the Pope is not a sheriff or a police chief or anyone else who works in the law enforcement system. But President Trump also posted an AI image on his Truth social account , depicting himself as Jesus Christ , which he later deleted and claimed he thought it showed him as a doctor. The Pope said , we will continue to promote peace. And here's what he said to reporters earlier this week.
S3: My message , the message of the gospel. Blessed are the peacemakers. I do not look at my role as being political politician. I don't want to get into a debate with him. I don't think that the message of the gospel is meant to be abused in the way that some people are doing.
S1: Well , many U.S. Catholics are expressing support for those sentiments. In a written statement , San Diego Bishop Michael Pham of the Catholic Diocese of San Diego said , throughout history , the papacy has served as a vital voice for peace , justice and the care of the most vulnerable. Pope Leo's leadership continues in that tradition , offering guidance that transcends politics and speaks to shared human values. May we all join Pope Leo in advocating for world peace. End quote. Now , of course , all of this brings up a lot of questions about the dynamic between religion and politics today. So joining me now to help sort of go through all of those things and answer some questions is Rebecca Bartel. She's a professor of religion at San Diego State University. Professor , welcome back to Midday Edition.
S4: Thanks so much for having me again.
S1: Glad to have you here for this discussion. You know , I want to start with some context here , because a lot of people are calling this rift between the US president and the pope unprecedented. Um , historically speaking , what does that relationship actually typically look like ? Good.
S4: Good question to begin with. Well , there's been a long standing sort of diplomatic relationship between the Vatican and the United States presidents. The first U.S. president to meet with the Pope was Woodrow Wilson , back in 1919 , on his tour of Europe post-war recovery effort , and there were some common points of interest between the Pope at the time with Pope Benedict the 15th , not the 16th , who was the more recent Pope Benedict , and then again in 1960s. Eisenhower also met with John Pope John the 23rd , who was the leader of the Second Vatican Council. And then , of course , John F Kennedy was the first Catholic president who met then with Pope Paul VI. And he was actually the first pope to come and visit the United States. In 1965 , he met with Lyndon B Johnson. So since then , the 1960s , every president has met with the Pope , the different popes that have been in the Vatican since then. There has also been moments of tension between popes and presidents , notably John Paul the Second was a critic of the Iraq War and brought that up with then-President George W Bush. He also criticized Bill Clinton's position on pro-abortion rights. And so there have been moments of tension. And even this president , President Trump , has had moments of tension with the former pope. Pope Francis , who he also criticized as being too political when Pope Francis was commenting on the building of walls and the the treatment of migrants and immigrants during the first Trump presidency. So there's there have been long standing relationships , but also moments of tension between the Vatican and the US presidency. However , I should mention there's never really been this kind of open public attack and , um , sort of tit for tat kind of conflict with the Pope that we're seeing in this particular moment with Trump and also other members of the executive. JD Vance has shared his opinions on what he thinks the pope should be saying or doing theologically and so on and so forth. So there's there's a long standing relationship and there have been moments of tension , but this is really a kind of I would yeah. The word you used is correct. Unprecedented kind of open public attack of the papacy. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. I thought JD Vance's ideas about what the Pope should and shouldn't be talking about , he told him to stick to the moral issues of morality , I think.
S4: Well , I think that's precisely what Pope Leo understands that he is doing. I think , um , the the way in which he's speaking , it's not a direct attack on Trump or the U.S. president. It's a it's a response to what is a moral question about the unjust ness of the war in Iran specifically. And so , speaking in terms of moral authority , he is taking a stance that distinguishes between the authority of moral principles and the authority that this government is trying to impose through force , which are two different sort of ways of understanding and understanding power and authority.
S1: Um , and in Jesus's teachings , uh , is he.
S4: So Augustine is also the sort of one of the Church Fathers who comes up with the idea of just war theory and just war theology and in. Well , then Robert Provost's father , Robert Provost's dissertation , he was clear on articulating that authority comes through service , not through power and impotence. And so when Pope Leo says things like , there is a delusion of omnipotence that's at work here , this is a direct moral critique of the way in which foreign relations are being conducted by this current administration.
S1: And it's not just this the war in Iran , is it ? I can think of many instances where Christianity has been used to push policy , um , and , and ideas.
S4: And so in terms of thinking about environmental issues , thinking about immigration issues and the ways in which for Pope Leo , I think what's important is thinking about how the victims and those who are being hurt by these policies are being affected. that's where the morality stems from , especially as thinking about his authority as the vicar of Christ on earth. In other words , the representative of the gospel on , you know , in in ways that transcend politics. I think it's important also to note that what the the sort of limits and boundaries on politics and power that the Pope is articulating. So when these kinds of extreme violations of humanitarian law , international law , there's sort of a dismissal of a of a sort of a moral order. The Pope's responsibility is to call that out and to provide some understanding of what the boundaries of this earthly powers should be. Right.
S1: Right. Well , I mean , Catholics worldwide have really been outraged by this whole saga. And even before this , in March , an NBC poll from that time found that Pope Leo is more popular than Donald Trump.
S4: Um. Bishop Joseph Strickland of Texas also has criticized another very conservative Catholic bishop. And so you've got conservative bishops who are speaking out against this conflict and this sort of , um , the kind of vulgar language and imagery and symbolism that's being promoted by the BI. Not just Trump , but also others in the administration. And it's also not just Catholics that are upset about this , but Protestant Christians. I mean , you really cross a line when you're posting images , no matter how they're generated or who posted it , representing yourself as a divinity that crosses a line with with Christians across the spectrum , I think.
S1: But this wasn't the first time he's done that , though. Is it true ? What do you think ? Why did.
S4: I think that there's a sort of justification of this kind of. Oh , he does , you know , don't what ? What is the. Don't take him serious. Don't take what he says literally , but take him seriously. Um , he doesn't need to be perfect as a Hugh. He's just a human. But , like , he's been divinely appointed. So there's sort of these , um , logistical , you know , gymnastics that are happening , I think , or theological gymnastics that are happening to , to to sort of pardon that kind of activity. Something happened here though , and I think part of it is that the Iran war is generally extremely unpopular throughout the country. And so you've already got Trump at something like 39% approval ratings , I mean , down in the dumps. And so now there's a kind of momentum that I think the critique can have has somewhere to land where earlier there were sort of these justifications perhaps being made for policies that there's more of a split on within the Christian electorate. But I should mention , I mean , the Catholic Church is one of the largest in the United States. You've got 1 in 5 Americans identify as Catholic. And while the Trump vote captured about 62% of that Catholic vote in this second round of of of of of elections , that number has fallen below 50% at this point. So the , the , the sort of fallout of this is , is quite real. And yeah , no one is in favor of the Iran war.
S1:
S4: They're going to have to be really careful , I think. I think this is going to come to a head in the midterms. And if you they're already sort of floundering with the Catholic Christian vote. Of course , there's variety within that electorate , but it's sort of split , uh , three ways amongst Democrats , Republicans and independents , where Catholics sort of sit on the spectrum of the on the electoral spectrum , uh , within the evangelical circles. I think walking back this kind of imagery that that's taken down and , um , might there might be some damage control that can be done. We'll have to see what happens in the next few weeks. On the way in which this president tries to amend the relationship with not just the Pope , but also other religious leaders who have criticized this kind of disrespect of of religious authority.
S1: All right. And , you know , again , this is this this pattern has been going on for such a long time. Um , what does this say to you about American Christians fundamental understanding of Christianity and who Jesus is ? Wow.
S4: I think I think we're at a in a very interesting time of reckoning. I think there's a needing to be a real kind of recognition of the ways in which religion , especially Christianity , is being weaponized , utilized. And as the Pope , Pope Leo said , um , abused. Um , and I think it needs to transcend politics , so I , I it will be very interesting to see how this plays out electorally. Um , but I , I don't know. I think that there I can't speak for all American Christians. I can say that the vote has it's always been an electorally , um , you know , diverse kind of , uh , um , population. However , as we know , as we talked about last time , the large majority of white evangelicals voted for Trump. And we'll see what this what the fallout of this kind of conflict will actually lend itself to. If you've got people like Tucker Carlson , who is incredibly popular within certain evangelical spheres , being very outspokenly critical of the way in which Trump is is approaching , and this entire administration is approaching ideas of Christianity. What that kind of influence will have , will remains to be seen , but I , I think we are in an interesting moment of a reckoning. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Well , from politics to the pews , it's going to be really interesting to see where this goes and and the conversations that will be had. I've been speaking with Rebecca Bartel. She's a professor of religion at San Diego State University. Professor , thank you so much.
S4: Thank you. Always a pleasure to be here.
S1: That's our show for today.
S5: I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
