S1: Hey there , San Diego , it's time for KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken , one of the leading figures of Trump's immigration enforcement operations , may be on his way back to his old Border Patrol post in El Centro. How community members are reacting.
S2:
S1: Plus , the San Diego Unified School District is one step closer to building housing for its employees. That's ahead on KPBS roundtable. Greg Bovino has become one of the most recognizable faces of President Trump's mass deportation efforts. He's led these large immigration sweeps in cities like Los Angeles , Chicago , and most recently , Minneapolis. But after the latest killing by immigration officers there , the second this month , multiple reports say Bovino is now returning to El Centro to lead the border Patrol sector there once again. But community members , they're pushing back. Andrew Dyer joins me now to talk more about it. He's the military and veterans affairs reporter here at KPBS. Andrew , welcome back to roundtable.
S3: Hey , thanks for having me.
S1: Great to have you here. So you visited El Centro yesterday. I mean , tell us more about how people are reacting to this news of his possible return.
S4: Well , you know , from when he led El Centro from 2020 to about to when Trump called him up to his latest job. And I think that from the time he left until now , when he's supposedly returning. Um , he's definitely a more notorious figure in people's minds. Um , he certainly wasn't a celebrity when he left. Um , and , you know , people are just wondering what is happening because , you know , we asked DHS about , hey , is he really coming back to the El Centro sector ? What's his job going to be there ? Um , they didn't respond , which is kind of normal for for them. Um , and , uh , yeah. So we don't even know what he's going to be doing there. But there's definitely a lot of , uh , concern , given the tactics that he encouraged his , uh , agents to , to utilize in LA , in Chicago , in Minneapolis. Um , you know , I talked to a Calipari mayor , Michael Llewellyn , who , um , who kind of talked about this , uh , this specific concern.
S2: My concern is with the chief , the self-proclaimed commander of the Border Patrol , returning home. Will these officers feel emboldened to do something different ? The El Centro sector is the premier sector for border patrol. Why are we treated as a wasteland ? As some place where they could send their their political scraps , their failed projects , so that we can deal with the consequences of emboldened and tyrannical federal agents ? Yeah.
S1: You hear some of the , you know , pretty strong words there. And as you mentioned , you know , we don't have a real clear picture. We don't know for sure like what role he's coming back if he is even coming back , as you mentioned , you haven't heard from Department of Homeland Security yet as to that. But you know , diving more into , you know , Vivino. Tell us more about , you know , his career. He's had a long career with the Border Patrol , as you mentioned much of it in the Imperial Valley. But tell us more what you've learned from about him in your reporting.
S4: Well , he's a little unusual , as far as I can tell , because usually you don't know who Border Patrol agents are. But Bovino is very different. You mentioned he's become kind of one of the most recognizable figures in this whole immigration crackdown. And that's true. And one of the reasons is he's basically the only one not wearing a mask. Um , you can actually see his face. And he hasn't been shy about being in front of cameras , and he's almost made it a point to be in front of cameras. Um , there's a clip from a few years ago when he was in El Centro , um , where he swam across the canal there to demonstrate how dangerous the current was. And , you know , he's just there with the cameras , very comfortable. Um , and I think maybe he seemed to like the attention ? I'm not sure. Um , but , uh , apparently he is , uh , on his way somewhere. There's been , uh , reports in other outlets and on social media. He's in a motorcade. It was seen , I think , in South Dakota and then Mount Rushmore. Right. Wyoming yesterday. Uh , in Rock Springs , some protesters showed up at their hotel. And , uh , so he's making his way somewhere , and , um , he does have a home in Imperial. So , um , I don't know where he's going. He hasn't told me , but.
S1: Um , you mentioned , you know , he is a resident of Imperial. Been there for for quite a while , as I understand. I mean , how is he recorded ? Sorry. Regarded rather by other folks in that community. Do you get a sense of of how some of his neighbors might be feeling about his potential return after all this fanfare ? Like you said , he's coming back much more a national figure at this point. Sure.
S4: Sure. I mean , they're not very comfortable with it. There's a lot of well , for one , they don't know what he's going to be doing. Is he going to be actually leading the sector again. And so they would like some answers from the government about that. But people also said , you know , they hope that he does. Um , it's been reported that he may just retire. Um , and they're hopeful that he does retire. And more than one person said they , they hope he moves away.
S1: And he is pretty close to the retirement age of Border Patrol , as I understand. Sure.
S3: Sure.
S4: He's 55 and they have a mandatory retirement age of 57.
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S4: If they want. To.
S3: To.
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S4: And so it pushed it because it's so secure kind of here. It kind of pushes people out into Imperial County , um , which is , you know , big and hazardous. So there's , you know , people put water drops and stuff out , but it's a place where if you're a Border Patrol agent , you are going to encounter a lot of migrants.
S1: Presumably you spent much of your day Thursday talking with people around the Valley to kind of hear more about , you know , their reactions to to China's potential return , as we've been talking about. Tell us more about just the overall sentiment , sentiment and what you heard.
S4: Um , you know , the Border Patrol has been part of the El Centro community for for decades , right ? Like , this isn't like I mean , this is a border city. It's a cross border Community. People are used to seeing Border Patrol agents. More than one person told me that , you know , there aren't a lot of jobs in El Centro and in the Valley. There's government , you know , there's , you know , education , um , there's agriculture and there's , you know , law enforcement. And that means Border patrol. So a lot of the folks that are in Border Patrol in the area are maybe local to the area. Um , a lot of them are relatives of some of the , the activists that I talked to. So it's , um , it's a pretty close kind of a relationship. You know , the Border Patrol is part of that community , right ? And , um , the overall kind of the gist of what people were saying was that they are worried that bovino , um , if he does come back and if he's given any type of authority that that that relationship could change the Border Patrol's relationship with the community because , you know , Border Patrol was not doing what they're doing in Minneapolis , in El Centro , right ? Like , we'd never saw anything like this in El Centro. But hey , all they've seen of Bovino lately is him standing in the middle of a bunch of mass guys throwing tear gas canisters. So , um , you know. Yeah , they're wondering what's next for their communities.
S1: And you spoke with a number of people , among them Francis Pope. And here's a little of what she had to say.
S5: Even though he's here and he lives in Imperial and he is or was the El Centro border sector chief , I find it very upsetting that he may not be held accountable , because his leadership has definitely been very abusive towards immigrants and towards US citizens.
S1: Andrew , I'm wondering , you know , about two minutes left here. You know , if this is indeed a demotion for Bovino , as the report seemed to suggest. If he does come , kind of come back to El Centro.
S4: Um , so , uh , yeah.
S1: I mean , you cover the military here. You know , KPBS , um , and a little bit we're going to hear , you know , more about this documentary film that kind of delves into Border Patrol and how it works , but there does seem to be at least a discussion about what kind of agency Border Patrol is ? I mean , it's not , you know , law enforcement. I think a lot of people are kind of thinking about that in terms of just what we've seen in the last few weeks over the last year. I'm just wondering how you view Border Patrol from that context. And , you know , as someone that covers the military regularly in the in the U.S..
S4: Yeah , it's really interesting because , you know , immigration and illegal immigration is a civil offense , right ? Like , this is not a criminal offense. You know , the Border Patrol will say that there's cartel members and stuff , but the vast majority of migrants are not. Um , so you have a civil police force that dresses in military fatigues ? Um , its commander , up until a few days ago , Greg Vivino , there was a great article in Politico about his this big trenchcoat that he wears. It's a it's called a great coat that has a long military tradition. Military commanders have worn great coats. And so you have the the optics of a military occupation. and you couple that with the fact that a lot of people in Border Patrol are veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan , and who have a history and experience dealing with an insurgency overseas. And when you watch these images in Chicago and Minneapolis and you know , I'm not the first person to draw this comparison by far , but it looks like , um , it looks like an occupying army. Occupying army , uh , dealing with an insurgency.
S1: I've been speaking with Andrew Dyer. He is KPBS military and Veterans affairs reporter. Andrew , thanks so much for being here. Thank you. Up next , a new film revisits a border death from over 15 years ago and the Border Patrol's involvement in it. That's ahead on roundtable. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm your host , Andrew Bracken. A new documentary film explores the 2010 death of Anastasio Hernandez Rojas at the San Ysidro Port of Entry. He died after a violent altercation with Border Patrol officers in which he was beaten and tased. And the film highlights one family's pursuit of justice.
S6: I understood that with a civil case like this against the Border Patrol , it's like killing the king. You want to make sure that you don't miss. We knew this may be difficult , but we also knew from the very beginning that there was something more to this case , because the Border Patrol was requested to turn over certain evidence and information , and in certain critical respects , they failed to do so.
S1: That was San Diego attorney Jean Iredale featured in the film Critical Incident death at the border , and that's available now for streaming on HBO Max. I'm joined now by the film's director , Richard Rowley , along with investigative journalist John Carlos Frey. He's featured in the film and has covered the story for several years. I want to welcome you both to roundtable. Richard , I want to start with you.
S7: Thanks for having us on. Um , Anasazi was a , uh , was a San Diego resident for 20 years. Uh , he was a father of four children. He was worked in construction and building pools. He was a member of the community. Um , but he had a deportation. And , uh , when he crossed back over , he was apprehended. Um , he , um , uh , and , I mean , we he was beaten to death in public by a dozen Border Patrol agents. Um , you know , and , uh , and the cover up of this killing began from the moment , uh , that he was , you know , even before he before he was dead. I mean , the Border Patrol agents were , um , stopping witnesses on the pedestrian bridge. They were racing videos off their phones. Uh , they didn't preserve the crime scene. They didn't tell the police what had happened. They scared away witnesses. Then when they were deposed , they all lied. They all lied because they didn't know that there was eyewitness video that John Carlos Frey , who's with us now , managed to track down. And that video when it was released , kind of blew the whole case open.
S1: And John , you know , as Richard was kind of breaking down there , this happened in a really public place. And you see San Isidro. Right ? Kind of , you know , near a lot of the bridges. And there were eyewitnesses. But , you know , take us back to you started covering this pretty early on.
S8: Back then , there was a very big pedestrian bridge that people would either come out of Tijuana into San Diego and cross over this bridge , or go into Tijuana from San Diego. So there were hundreds of people that would walk over , right over a border patrol station. And this is where the beating occurred. It was late. It was dark , so you couldn't see that much. But a young girl , she was 20 at the time , saw something , heard something , flipped out her phone and started to record. And I went looking for this video. I had heard that someone had a recording. I had interviewed Mexican government officials , bystanders , people who told me that the Border Patrol had deleted evidence from their phones. So I started to piece together that there was an issue here. It wasn't just a simple killing or a simple death. As the Border Patrol had described. There was something that needed to be investigated.
S1: And you mentioned the video there , and there was actually multiple videos. And of course , this was a 2010 that's a much different sort of like picture you got from the video quality itself. Tell us more about what you know , how that changed the story. Obviously you said there were some eyewitness accounts and then there was , you know , the you know , what Border Patrol was saying at the time of his death.
S8: There was a young woman who had crossed over the bridge at the time of , of Anastasia being beaten by federal officials. She didn't want to come forward. She was afraid of retaliation. She thought that she had at least. She had said to me that she witnessed a murder , but she had it on her phone. It took me almost two years to convince her to come forward with the video evidence. By that time , Border Patrol agents had given testimony and depositions and had described what had happened that evening , and none of it seemed to match what was on the video. As Rick was saying , it was a lie. They were covering up the death of Anastasio and the video evidence proved it.
S1: Richard , this film really is an investigation into the inner workings , the inner workings of the Border Patrol. Um , you know , that's under the umbrella of U.S. Customs and Border Protection. I'm just wondering how you describe the Border Patrol and what makes them sort of distinct from other federal law enforcement agencies ? Yeah.
S7: I mean , we made this film because , you know , border enforcement , Immigration enforcement has been one of the most important stories in the country for , you know , decades. But it has been a real blind spot for much of the media , especially for , uh , you know , for films. I mean , this when we started this film five years ago , there was no feature length documentary exposé looking at the Border Patrol as a kind of police force , as a , as a body of law enforcement. And that remains true to this day , even though there are Border Patrol masked Border Patrol agents on the streets of a half dozen cities. So the Border Patrol , the CBP , the Customs and Border Protection is the largest federal law enforcement agency , and the Border Patrol operates under that aegis. And it operates in this constitutional gray zone , where it has powers and authorities that no other law enforcement agency is given. They can surveil people without probable cause or without judge's orders. They can detain people , uh , they can interrogate them without lawyers present. Um , they can detain them indefinitely. I mean , they have a whole suite of authorities that , uh , other law enforcement agencies aren't given because it is not presumed that the victims of their , uh , of their overreach are U.S. citizens. The Border Patrol has killed hundreds , probably thousands , probably tens of thousands of people over its 100 years of existence. No agent has ever been successfully prosecuted for an on duty killing. Um , so , you know , it's a , uh , and it's it's massively corrupt. I mean , it's , uh , it's the most corrupt federal law enforcement agency as well. Um , uh , James Tomczyk , the former head of internal affairs for the Border Patrol , estimated at least 10% of Border Patrol agents were actively corrupt. Ron Haskell , who used to be a deputy director of the FBI , you know , cited , uh , statistics as high as 20%. I mean , that's an epidemic of corruption that is just unparalleled. I mean , that that signals a rogue agency. Um , and , I mean , this film was , you know , reveals a kind of culture of impunity and violence at the heart of it.
S1: And let's talk more about that , John. This led you to kind of look into the Border Patrol's investigative teams , these CIT teams , um , critical incident incident teams , critical investigative teams. Tell us more about those and how they play a role in the story of Anastasio.
S8: Imagine the San Diego Police Department firing their weapon and and , you know , by happenstance , killing somebody. And they themselves take over the investigation. They themselves collect forensics and take photographs and put up the caution tape and make sure that nobody else enters the scene. They themselves are responsible for the investigation of their own shooting. That's what the Border Patrol does. The Border Patrol has what is called a critical incident team that goes right after an incident that they know is going to probably become public , and they tamper with evidence and they create their own reports. and that's what we found. That's what the film is about primarily , are these teams that go in before any other outside investigator. In the case of Anastasio. The San Diego Police Department was charged with the investigation. They didn't even know about it until 24 hours afterward. And it happened to be a KPBS reporter who let them know that there was actually an incident. And by that time , a day later , after someone had died , there was no there was no crime scene. So that's what they do.
S1: And Richard , your film features an interview with a former detective from San Diego PD , Ron Nordquist , you know , who investigated the death. And he he expressed his frustration about access to evidence and other things. Tell us more about what he told you and what you took away from from what he had to say about these , you know , the way Border Patrol handled Anastasios death.
S7: Yeah , absolutely. You know , I'm just reading the police reports. You can feel the frustration of of the whole team of detectives who work on it. I mean , first of all , they didn't make any. They didn't preserve the crime scene. They didn't tell them about it. They didn't. Um , they shooed away witnesses and intimidated witnesses and destroyed evidence. There were multiple security cameras that they should have gotten video from. And in the end , the , you know , they sent them the wrong tapes. They said there was no footage from some of these cameras. This is one of the busiest border crossings in the world. Um , and , uh , you know , it is just it defies common sense that there weren't , uh , cameras covering this , but all of that , uh , is either destroyed or gone or wasn't preserved. Um , then , uh , yeah. I mean , and you can see they actually document over and over and over again , many , many times , them making official requests to the , uh , police department or to the Border Patrol to hand over these security tapes. And they and they never do.
S1: John , the film , you know , shows some of your efforts meeting with Congress members , other leaders to lobby to , kind of shed more light on these. These investigative teams. And it led to them being disbanded in 2022.
S9:
S8: I want to laugh at that question. And I don't mean that you're posing a joke , but I say , you know , in in quotes , they've been disbanded. But we can even take a look at evidence today with , with the killings in Minneapolis. There are no investigations into the shooting of Renee. Good. State officials , local officials are not given evidence from the federal government who collected at the crime scene. There. There is no participation between federal authorities and state authorities. So how are we going to get to the bottom of what happened there ? I mean , we certainly can see video tape evidence of it , but the actual investigative pieces of it doesn't seem like it's going to happen. So it doesn't appear to me maybe they're not called critical incident teams , which the Biden administration had disbanded , but the federal government is being very tight lipped about this.
S1: So that accountability may still be missing there.
S8: Well , I have not heard there have been nine killings by Border Patrol agents since Trump took office , and we have had these raids. Not one of those agents has been held responsible to date.
S1: And Alex Peretti , I do think they announced a federal investigation might be going on for his killing. But as you mentioned , not yet for for the Nicole. Good.
S8: Well , we'll have to see. I'm not holding my breath.
S1: Richard , your film , you know , tells this ongoing story of the search for justice for the family of Hernandez Rojas. Um , they settled a civil case years after his death , but the journey didn't stop there. It also led to human rights court , the Inter-American Commission of Human Rights. Tell us that story.
S7: Yeah , well , so the the civil settlement was not justice for the family. They never considered that to be the end of the the road for them. Um , they want the , uh , the people who killed Anastasia to face criminal charges. So because the Justice Department wouldn't investigate , they took the case to the only place they could , which is kind of a higher international court on human rights. It's part of the Organization of American States. It's a it's a it's where you go if you cannot get justice from your , uh , from your your government in the Americas and the United States is a member of it , there's a , you know , State Department lawyers who were there taking the government side. And this is the first time that the Border Patrol has been kind of put on trial in this international venue and that and so it was it took a long time. It was very difficult to get the case before them. Um , and Maria , you know , uh , stood before the court and testified. And , I mean , it was just incredibly dramatic and moving. I mean , this , you know , woman who has been through so much and has managed to take on some of the most powerful institutions in the in the in the world and and they I mean , when the verdict came down , it was incendiary. I mean , it has now been found in court that the Border Patrol tortured and killed Anastasio and that there was a cover up afterwards. And it is the demand was made by the court for the US to open an investigation in order to criminally punish the the people who murdered Anastasio and everyone involved in the coverup. And as you'll see in the film , the man in the leadership in San Diego sector who presided over this torture , this killing and this cover up is Rodney Scott , who Donald Trump named to be the head of the entire CBP.
S1: In light of kind of the , you know , recent events we've seen out of Minneapolis this past month and immigration enforcement , you know , overall over the past year. Richard , I'm wondering how the lens has changed for you on this story that you're telling in this film.
S9: You mean you're looking at me , John. Oh , no. Richard. I'm sorry. Yeah.
S7: Well , I mean , it's only become more urgent. I mean , this is , you know , we have we have mass border patrol agents in a half dozen cities. They're killing people in the cities and there , and we don't. I mean , this is a secretive , violent organization that Americans don't really understand. And so the purpose of this film , the value of this film , I hope what this film does is pull back the veil on this organization that tries to hide itself in secrecy and reveal the violence and impunity that's at the heart of it. I mean , this is a this is the Border Patrol is like the NYPD before Serpico or the LAPD before Rodney King. It's like this is a corrupt , violent organization whose day of reckoning is long overdue and hopefully will come soon.
S1:
S9:
S8: Hate to think about somebody horrible , brutalized beating , but he has become a cause celeb for for the Border Patrol for the most part. What we're seeing today in cities and inner cities in Los Angeles , Chicago , Charlotte and Minneapolis is what's been going on at the border for decades. That's how Border Patrol operates. They pull people out of their cars , they beat the crap out of them , and then sometimes they kill them and they're not held accountable. That's exactly what we're seeing. That's how they're trained. And I think the story of Anastasia , the documentary , which which Rick did a beautiful job of of getting us to see how life is like for undocumented people at the border. There's a parallel today. We can see what people were treated like before and how they're being treated now.
S1: I've been speaking with Richard Rowley. He's the director of the film. Critical incident death at the border , along with John Carlos Ray. He's an investigative journalist and host of the podcast The Raid. You can watch the HBO original documentary Critical incident now on HBO Max. I want to thank you both for joining us today.
S9: Thank you.
S7: Thank you.
S1: Coming up , the San Diego Unified School District is one step closer to its plan to build housing for employees. Hear more when roundtable returns. You're listening to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. The San Diego Unified School District has taken big leaps in its effort to create housing for its employees. Earlier this week , the district approved four proposals that could bring thousands of affordable housing units to school land. Joining me to talk more is Jacob McWhinney. He covers education with Voice of San Diego. Jacob welcome back.
S9: Hey , Andrew. Thanks for having me.
S1: Great to see you. So bring us up to speed. You know , the district's moving forward with these new proposals. Tell us about. Them.
S9: Them. Yeah. So it is a quite a big deal , as you referenced there in recent years , the prospect of building education , workforce housing has really been gaining steam across California. That's kind of because it's this sort of two birds with one stone situation , right ? School district staff can , who are often very significantly rent burdened , get access to cheaper , you know , homes helps school districts retain and recruit new staff. But also on the housing front , there are a there's a whole lot of school districts with land that that can be developed. And so for developers , for people who are worried about the affordable housing crisis , and for school districts who are worried about recruiting and retaining staff. It is really helpful. In San Diego Unified , the district has for a while now started to bat around this idea of affordable housing. It's been kind of building up for these moves for for quite a while. Since December , they've approved four proposals , and these approvals just moved them into the negotiation stage that could yield nearly 2500 units of affordable education , workforce housing , which by itself , that's a lot. That's like 30% of what the whole city of San Diego issued permits for in 2024. Oh , wow.
S1: Yes , a big yeah.
S9: And then. Absolutely. And then when you look at at you zoom out to the statewide level , you see that the scale is even crazier , right ? So all across California , only 850 of these sort of units have ever been built. So this is the potential to pretty much triple the amount of education workforce , housing units that have been built in California.
S1: I mean , you mentioned some of the other parts of the state that have tried something like this. I mean , how does this compare ? What are some other examples of where we've seen this in the state ? Yeah.
S9: You know , again , there has been nothing at this scale throughout all of California. And there are kind of two ways to look at this. One. There's like the raw number scale , which there's nothing that's been like this ever. But the other way to to think about this as sort of a percentage scale , right. So like I mentioned , only around 850 units have been built. And LA unified , for example , has 185 , nearly 200 of those units. That district , though , has like 775,000 employees. It's the second largest employer in Los Angeles County. And so the percentage of employees that that housing can , can house is a very small percentage. It's a bunch of numbers behind a decimal. But other school districts have have been housing , you know , greater percentages of their staff up to the 30% range. San Diego Unified , when setting out to build these projects , initially decided they wanted to build housing for 10% of their staff , but through this approval process , they kept upping how many units they were going to build. They essentially with every project that came before them , every proposal , they chose the proposal with the most potential units. And that meant that instead of 1500 units as they initially planned to to approve , they approved 2500 , which amounts to about 17% of its staff.
S1: So obviously , how you know , housing here is is very expensive. I imagine a lot of that for , you know , educators for what they make and , you know , all school employees. It can be a challenge. Tell us more about , you know , that cost of living piece and how that fits into what they're trying to to strike at here ? Sure.
S9: Yeah. And it's an interesting sort of dynamic here. Right. We generally understand that teachers are pretty underpaid. And that is true for many of them , especially those at the at the early , you know , part of their career. And so building housing for these kinds of folks would be pretty transformative. It would mean that not only would they be able to stay in a place that's as expensive as San Diego , which is because it's so expensive , chases away a lot of sort of early educators , and makes certain parts of education , like special education staff or para educators , where maybe they get paid even less. It makes it pretty precarious for them to stay here. So it's very useful on that end. But again , you know , as educators gain more seniority , move on up the pay scale , they often end up in this sort of in-between zone , right ? These middle income folks for whom , you know , they don't they no longer qualify for traditional capital , a affordable housing that's like rent restricted based on , you know , how much , what percentage of the area median income you make. And so San Diego Unified approached this in a different way. They didn't use the traditional definition of affordable. They created their own definition of affordable. That basically meant if a , you know , unit of housing costs a worker 30% of their income , that is affordable , it's not tied to the area median income. This meant that the housing , the housing units they built , they may be more expensive than a traditional affordable unit , but they would still be affordable to staff members who , you know , are higher up on the pay scale. And that's useful because we've seen in other districts like Los Angeles Unified , the housing they've built , their teachers didn't even qualify for it because they were making too much to actually , you know , move into this , into this housing that , that that was rent restricted. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. I mean , so the district is going to be using landed loans for these projects. I guess one question I had is , you know , how is that land being used right now ? And what is the district , you know , tend to , you know , what do they might lose by kind of losing that office space or whatever. Yeah.
S9: Yeah. So that's a good question. Many of these spaces are sort of like underutilized or the the buildings have kind of moved past their their useful date. Um , The main site. The site in University Heights that currently houses the district's headquarters. Um , that is kind of the most utilized piece of land at this point. That is where the biggest project was approved. This is a 1500 unit project that would include a whole bunch of additional uses a public pool , uh , sports courts , a little dog park , even a kind of teacher training center , and a child care center for those employees that , again , currently houses the district's headquarters. The district has been for a number of years , retrofitting a different building to move their staff into. And so that's kind of where we're at right now. The building they're moving staff into is actually the former headquarters of Jack in the box over in Sierra mesa. And so in a couple of years , when they make that big shift , uh , you know , their that land will be empty and they'll tear everything down. And I think that's a relief to a lot of district staff. I reported a couple of years ago about how there were a whole lot of frustrations with just how that that district headquarters was working , that there were vermin , that the AC didn't work , that everything was breaking down. It is an old space.
S1: So it's really not. Yeah , not like you said , pretty underutilized at this point. Yeah.
S9: Yeah. Not not a huge loss. Yeah. And because they're using this joint occupancy model , they're not actually selling the land. They're leasing the land to developers who are then put , you know , ponying up the money to , to build this stuff and then also paying the district a lease sometimes.
S1: You know , you call this I mean , this does seem like a big deal. You call this the start of San Diego Unified GMB era , you know ? Yes , in my backyard. Um , you know , I guess I'm what kind of what criticism have you heard about this project ? Obviously , this is something new. Seems pretty bold. What are you hearing about the tractors from this are people with concerns ? Yeah.
S9: There has been some opposition at , you know , the board meetings and the special workshops at which the board was considering , you know , doing this kind of housing. There were people who came up and were concerned and I think their rightful concerns. You know , currently the land that that the big project is going to be on houses , the district staff headquarters , and soon it will have house 1500 units. That's a big , big change. But I think even board members were surprised by how much the landscape around this stuff has changed. I mean , 7 or 8 years ago , when the district was first starting to consider some of this stuff , you know , the opposition side was much , much louder and much , much more activated than the people who were supporting these projects. And so at these board meetings , there were people who showed up all dressed in red and wearing , you know , stickers that that said that they supported the smallest of these housing projects. Those people were there. But also , you know , folks who were , you know , young urbanists who are really excited about the potential for this very , very large complex that featured all these amenities. They also showed up in force. I mean , ultimately , they were pretty evenly matched. And when it comes to folks who have kind of like a fiscal budget hawk concerns with this , I think the fact that this is a private developer using their money makes a big difference , right ? This is not the district using taxpayer money. I mean that just to drive this home again , that's a pretty wild aspect of all of this. The district is not spending a dollar of taxpayer money to build or operate these these things. And if everything goes to plan , the leases that that these buildings would entail could bring in billions to the district. That model , that joint occupancy model is a very , very new one. The district is the only district in the state that currently has an operating version of this , and the only one to to continue to try to innovate and iterate with this model.
S1: You know , just a few weeks ago , Mayor Todd Gloria , in his state of the city speech , mentioned sort of plans to develop , you know , city land for housing , kind of similar to this. I guess , you know , I'm curious , what are some of the challenges that may come from from building Housing on this school owned land.
S9: So in 2022 , there was this this report that really kind of drove a lot of momentum and enthusiasm for this. It said that across California , there were about 72 more than 70,000 acres of developable land , upon which more than 2 million housing units could be built. That would basically zero out the sort of housing deficit that that that housing experts say that California has. And from that report , there was a lot of momentum and enthusiasm to start to try to push this , this , you know , educator workforce housing thing forward. And so lawmakers started to pass laws that meant that , oh , you don't need to rezone here. Oh , maybe you get an exemption from Sequoia , which is the California Environmental Quality Act that requires a whole bunch of hoops to jump through. So there has been a sort of greasing of the wheels for these kinds of projects. And even , you know , at the board meeting on Monday night , there was a representative from Mayor Todd Gloria's office who came up and lauded the district for taking this step. And beyond that , I think that , again , the fact that there's this twofer situation is really exciting to people , and it's much easier to get people to get on board with building housing for a teacher than just , you know , affordable housing in general. But all of that being said , like I said , this is a very experimental strategy. There's only one such housing complex like this in the state , and it's up in Scripps Ranch on San Diego Unified land. And so they are diving full headfirst into this experimental housing strategy. And there are a million ways that this could fall apart. I mean , one of the big things that district officials are looking at is whether or not developers will actually be able to secure the financing. They've they've said they would be able to develop to secure in their proposals. So between that and cost overruns and construction hiccups , all these kinds of things we're going to have to keep an eye on. But I think for them , the exciting part is it's not their money that's on the line.
S1:
S9: I would imagine the next couple of years , um , the what's next ? In a broader sense , the district again , is very excited about this , this strategy. Um , board President Richard Barrera told me that they're already eyeing for additional potential sites and could potentially issue requests for proposals from developers for these sites within this coming year. That would be , again , a whole lot of movement for a strategy and and an initiative that is still just pretty groundbreaking. Beyond that , the district has also entered into a partnership with the San Diego Community College District to create something called a regional Housing Finance Authority. Uh , this is the , you know , I'm saying a lot of unprecedented and firsts in this interview. This is another one of those , uh , this is the only the third of these housing authorities to exist in California. And the first time that , uh , two school districts have combined powers to create one , it would allow districts to it would allow these districts to kind of collaborate more closely on building housing , would allow them to to potentially put bond measures or tax measures on the ballot to fund this housing. And both the chancellor of the San Diego Community College District and Superintendent Fabio Regula of San Diego Unified , have said that they really want to be ambitious and go big with this. While this education workforce housing stuff was sort of an inward looking thing to build housing for staff , they want to look outward and are drawing inspiration from places like Vienna that have really long established public housing initiatives that house , you know , 50% , upwards of 50% of the people in the city. Wow.
S1: Wow. So a lot to cover there. And we haven't even gotten to all the other. You mentioned Richard Barrera , and there's a whole nother story with him seeking Statewide office. But we'll have you on again to talk more about some of those stories. I've been speaking with Jacob McWhinney. He covers education with the Voice of San Diego. Jacob , thanks so much.
S9: Thanks for having me , Andrew.
S1: That'll do it for a roundtable this week. Thanks so much for listening. You can always listen to our show anytime as a podcast. KPBS roundtable airs on KPBS FM. Noon on Fridays again Sundays at 6 a.m.. If you have any thoughts on today's show , you can always email us. Roundtable at KPBS roundtables. Technical producer is Brandon Truffaut. The show is produced by Juliana Domingo. Brooke Ruth is roundtable senior producer. I'm your host , Andrew Bracken. Thanks , and have a great weekend.
