S1: Hey there , San Diego , it's time for KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. Today , the city is reopening bathrooms in mission Bay that had been closed due to budget cuts. We get into the potty politics of it all.
S2: I understand the frustration that this has caused many. I share in that frustration. We all want to see public amenities open and operating for the public's benefit.
S1: Then , while the San Diego Padres are having success on the field and with fans right now , why some former players feel forgotten and are fighting for more equal benefits. Plus , for San Diego storytellers , how one local writer is bringing indigenous horror to the forefront. It's coming up with KPBS roundtable. Mission Bay Park is a special place. A winding path takes you right along the water. Perfect for running , biking , walking , especially during these beautiful summer months here in San Diego. In recent weeks , though , some visits have turned a little more stressful. The city closed nearly half of the park's bathrooms to help the city's finances , and as you can imagine , that made things a little uncomfortable for some park goers like Angela Rivera and her grandkids.
S3: The bathrooms were closed , so sadly we had to use an alternative , which was a tree.
S1: As of today , though , the city is officially reopening those bathrooms. And joining me to talk all about the whole saga is Claire Tracer. She's a reporter with Axios San Diego. Also here is Scott Lewis. He's editor in chief with Voice of San Diego , Claire Scott. Welcome back to roundtable.
S4: Thank you.
S1: So , Claire , you know , the city closed these 13 bathrooms back in July to save money for the city budget here. But how much would that have actually helped the budget deficit?
S4: I believe the claim was for a year it would save about $560,000 , which is like a very small drop in the massive city budget. And the and the savings came through just less staff time and less cleaning and maintenance costs was the line that that I was given when I asked about it.
S1: And Scott , the mayor , you know , at a press conference on Wednesday , announced , you know , this change here. And he talked about how hard this year's budget process was during his remarks. Um , as somebody who's covered , you know , the budget process here in San Diego for so many years , what made this year's budget , you know , like little kind of process back and forth. What made it unique this year?
S5: Well , you know , we've we've seen cycles like this before. The city admits it has a structural budget deficit , which means it's set up to spend more than it's set up to take in. Um , so they , you know , really wanted to tackle that more. They've raised trash fees , they've raised the hotel room tax , but it hasn't kept up with rising salaries , benefits , um , legacy costs , debt costs and other things that just really overwhelm the budget. And so , you know , when they start cutting , they end up getting so granular with it that it gets , you know , everybody wants to protect something. And and so they end up , you know , getting down to these like very small amounts , very small cuts they had planned. And they were very upfront and it was very clear they were going to cut bathrooms. I think , um , you know , which ones were a little bit , you know , lesser known. But I think if you dug deep enough , you would know that it was it was this plan. But when it actually happened and the way that the mayor did it , when he cut him any , any and then he put up a sign on the thing saying , we're doing this because of budget cuts , I think. It was just it was a really provocative way to do it. And now they're reversing it.
S1: And I want to talk more about that messaging piece. But but first , Claire , you know , with all this said , you mentioned it's about 500. What , 550,000 a year that this was going to be saving? You know , tell us about the money that you know is going to be used to reopen the bathrooms. Then at least until the end of the year , which is what they announced. Right. Right.
S4: Right. I mean , he's he definitely the way he presented it was like , okay , you can have this for now , but then we still need to find the money again in January. What they said was so council districts one and two , which both include parts of mission Bay , I believe we're each going to give $50,000 from their own , kind of like discretionary budget. And then they got a higher than expected state grant. Um , I don't have any more details on that , but I'd be interested to know what that was. And so that was going to total up , I think he said offhand , like at the end , that it would be $200,000. So I guess that's about half the year. And then they need to find more money in January. I , you know , I guess I could be surprised by anything. It seems highly unlikely to me that they go back and close them again in January because of how upset people were. And , you know , they'll figure out some other way to fund it before they have to close them at the end of the calendar year.
S1: Scott , you know , the sorry. Go ahead.
S4: I could be wrong , but that would be my that would that would be my prediction. I it seems extremely unlikely to me that they will close them again. Scott.
S1: Scott. Um , you know , one of the first things that came to mind for me , you know , when reading about this latest update was , you know , similar to the beginning of the year with the introduction to paid parking in Balboa Park and the sort of public pushback there. And then in July , the city council kind of , you know , pulling that back , I'm wondering , do you feel that's a fair comparison? Is that something that that you're reminded of? You know , looking at this , this what we're seeing with the bathrooms right now?
S5: Yeah , I think there was there was sort of two things going on. I think one , they assumed that it would blow over or that it wouldn't reach the sort of critical mass of public awareness and criticism that that it got to , to force them to switch , which obviously was just a poor calculation. Um , there are so many , so few things that we cover that , you know , really break through to the , to the what we call the normals that people just , you know , living their lives in San Diego , not obsessed with city politics like we are. And this one , you know , very quickly did I think it was just like it just felt like a , like the the city was kind of trolling the populace like , yo , you don't want to raise taxes here. You know , here's what you have to deal with. And I think there was actually a little bit of truth to that , where there's a lot of people in the city that feel like San Diegans have never had to , you know , reconcile their , their anti-tax , you know , preferences with , with the consequences for public services. And so they wanted to kind of hold the line and make them deal with that. On the other hand , we've we've raised taxes more than I've ever seen over the last two decades of covering this with the hotel room tax and the trash fee and , you know , other things. So I think , um , I think there's a , you know , further disconnect between the , the leadership of the city and , and the and the public and , um , and it just it , you know , it it finally just it collapsed. You're sort of collided , you know , the two realities together. And that's when change happens.
S4: I mean , yeah , that's I've , I've been kind of wondering that , you know , because these things like parking and bathrooms are just so in people's day to day life. I couldn't really think of. You know , other things that the city could take away or , you know , make worse that people , you know wouldn't notice even more. And I'm wondering if it's actually intentional to kind of say , like , okay , you know , you aren't willing to pay. You know , you haven't passed these increased taxes or whatever. And so this is what we're going to do. And then if the backtracking is also then part of that just to , you know , kind of show , I mean I'm like , there's no way to answer that. But I'm wondering , Scott , if you think that that could potentially be part of what's going on is like a threat or like a punishment , and then , okay , we could do this again if you guys , you know , don't help us out by passing higher taxes. Yeah.
S5: Yeah. I mean , it's the it's the operation of this city for the last two years has been the mayor , you know , and he's he's just super bitter about the city council passing these , this budget with these cuts. And then he goes and closes and follows through and executes it. And then they're like , oh yeah , how dare you do this? And I think , um , he just , uh , um , you know , really wanted to make that point and , you know , but in the meantime , people can't go to the bathroom and it's like , can you guys just like , talk or whatever? And then they put up the signs , you know , they they're really good at closing bathrooms in the community at night or whatever. They just lock them. But instead of just locking them , they put out a sign saying these are being closed because of budget problems or , you know , to deal with the budget. And it's just like it's just like a poke in the eye , like , you know , give us more money or you can , but there's no option to give the city more money right now. There's no they're not asking. There's no way to put money in the machine there. There's no tax increase on the ballot. There's nothing. So it's just a it just feels like a very petty sort of , um , dispute and just , you know , very characteristic of how the city has been run the last three years , basically.
S1: Well , to your point , Scott. You know , Mayor Gloria's comments on Wednesday , I think he did remind us that , you know , the city council did approve the budget unanimously. You know what I mean? In a little sort of like political reminder there. Um , Scott , usually you kind of you mentioned this just sort of the way these closures were communicated , saying it was due to budget issues. But also you write about , you know , I don't know , some of the ways it was communicated on on the bathrooms. There was a QR code , but you write that it wasn't the most useful to folks , right?
S5: Um , yeah , it was really it was really good. If you if you go to the QR code link , it takes you to , um , a website that's about mission Bay. And then it says , like , click here to , you know , find the nearest bathroom. But if you scroll down and then you click on it , it's just a PDF map of mission Bay , which they could just post that instead of the QR code on the board. I just find the whole thing funny. It's just like a it was very reminiscent of the Balboa Park closed park parking fees because it was just not only like very controversial and and painful for the public , it also just was terribly run like it was just terribly rolled out. And I think they just keep and in this case , literally stepping in it. And um , and then , you know , people get outraged and they change it , but they don't get any benefit from changing it. They could have flipped it before , but they got so much pressure from the city council. Ocampo and Donna Frye , the former city council member , ended up sending the mayor a picture of poop that was on the side of one of these buildings. And just like what? Why did you let it get this far? It's just a couple hundred thousand dollars at this point. And the city , you know , obviously was able to find that very quickly. And it's just like , what are we doing? Like what game is going on here? It's very frustrating.
S1: And Claire , you talk about also how some bathrooms weren't even fully closed. Right. They just weren't being cleaned.
S6: I don't know what happened.
S4: With that , but it was disgusting. Like , I guess what the city told me is that maybe either someone forgot to lock it like one of the city staff , or someone climbed under the door and then unlocked it or something , which I don't even know if that's possible. So basically it was a bathroom that was just left open and not cleaned for an excessive amount of time. And I have photos , but I did not publish them because they were disgusting and people read my newsletter over breakfast. So , um , yeah. And then when I asked about it very quickly , then the bathroom was cleaned and locked , uh , back to the way that it was before. So , yeah.
S1: I mean , you know , reflecting on this saga , you know , these bathrooms should be reopened today. Um , Scott , you know , what lessons do you think the city should be taken away from this ordeal?
S5: Well , I think , um , personally , the , you know , a huge. The city relies on three main sources of revenue , um , property taxes , sales taxes and tourism. Hotel room taxes and tourism is a massive , um , you know , industry here. Uh , we spend upwards of $60 million a year attracting people to San Diego. Keeping the bathrooms open was like , what , one. You know , 1% of that or something like , just spend the money to make sure people can go to the bathroom when they come to your city , after you spend millions of dollars attracting them to the city. It's it's it seems like a no brainer. It seems like if even just a portion of the money that we , we fund Google ads with and all these , you know , spots across the country to get people to come here. The connection between that and and actually functioning restrooms. The other thing I would take away , the mayor has a personal sort of vindictiveness about the bathrooms. Like , he's he's always complaining about how poorly they're treated by people. He's always just very reluctant to open new ones , very reluctant to engage in that discussion about just the the horrific kind of lack of of public bathrooms. There's literally one place to go to the bathroom at night in downtown. Um , and , you know , there's a lot of people where they're homeless or tourism or whatever like that , that have to go to the bathroom. And his unwillingness to engage that as a , as a , as a priority in the city is just is bizarre and starting to reach like a level of just like , um , I don't know , it's just , it's it's just bizarre that he'd be willing to , to be that obtuse to it. And so I think that , um , you know , we need to care about this as a , as a city that wants to attract people here. And it's not that much money. And yeah , people treat , you know , if you if you only have a one bathroom open in a , you know , large area of square miles , it's going to it's going to be a tough place and it's not going to be a very pleasant place. That's why you need a critical mass to make sure you can take care of people if and you know , as a as a guy who's getting older and a guy who had kids and , you know , with grandparents , stuff like people need these facilities and it and it shouldn't be such a , you know , difficult thing to deal with every day. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. I mean , downtown , you know , mission Bay actually has plenty of bathrooms. It's it's great. Like I run there all the time. There's , you know , there always seem to be in very good condition for the most part. But downtown is a whole other story. And I've actually , like , gone into a restaurant and asked to use their bathroom , and they had a literal like a button on their cash register to charge me $5. They were like , oh yeah , okay , you can have it for $5. We'll have the code to the bathroom. And she already had like a pre-programmed button on the cash register bathroom button. Um , but yeah , it's downtown is is a whole other story. And so , you know , I think the consensus is there should be more down They're not what.
S1: I've been speaking with Claire Tregear from Axios San Diego , along with Voice of San Diego Scott Lewis. Claire Scott , thanks so much.
S6: Thank you. Thank you.
S1: Up next , San Diego Padres are being sold for a multi-billion dollar price. So why are some retired ballplayers crying foul over benefits? This is KPBS roundtable. Stay tuned. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. The San Diego Padres and their fans are having a moment right now. The team is on a five game winning streak and after some early season bumps , they currently hold a wild card spot for the playoffs. On top of that , Major League Baseball is soon expected to vote to approve the sale of the team at an evaluation of nearly $4 billion. That would be a record price for an MLB team. But not everyone who's played a part in growing the game is seeing the benefits. Recent reporting from NBC news explores the financial struggles of a group of aging former MLB stars who feel the game has left them behind. Gretchen morgenson is a financial reporter with NBC news , and she joins me now. Gretchen , welcome to roundtable.
S7: Thank you. Andrew. Great to be with you.
S1: So your story begins at this year's opening day. Down here , Petco Park here in San Diego. The day honored the legendary Padres pitcher Randy Jones , who passed away last November. He won the franchise's first Cy Young Award back in the 70s. He was a pretty seminal figure in Padres history and the community. How does he fit into this story on what you call the unlevel playing field of MLB retirement benefits?
S7: Well , well , Andrew , thanks again for having me. You know , the story of Randy Jones came to me from another San Diego Padres , Kurt Bevacqua , also from that era , who was reaching out because these guys who used to play back in the day and by the way , made a lot less than the guys that are playing today. They have a real beef with the Major League Baseball Players Association and with their pension. And so Curt told me about the situation , which affects people like Randy Jones and now his widow , Marie. So I had a great conversation with Marie and she told me that she was really surprised that after Randy passed last fall when she started getting his pension , it was half of what he had been receiving. And as she said to me , Randy went to his grave thinking I was going to be taken care of. Thinking that I was going to be receiving the full pension. So here was a story about what , as I said , an unlevel playing field where people who played , you know , years ago , decades ago have a very different and much reduced deal in the way of their pension benefits for spouses after they pass. Also , cost of living increases. They do not get cost of living increases as current players Automatically do , um , they have to pay up for their health insurance. And so there's just this kind of , um , reduced aspect of their pension and their benefits. That is , I thought , just a really important story to get out there.
S1: You are a financial reporter. You know , you deal with issues like this quite a bit. You kind of mentioned there I think a lot of us , when we hear the words professional baseball player , professional athlete , we see , you know , the big dollar amounts players make this , you know , in this day and age. But how would you describe the financial status of these former players and their family members that you spoke with for this reporting?
S7: Well , some of them , you know , they're still paying off their mortgages and they're not living , you know , high off the hog , as we would say. Um , you know , these are people who are , you know , trying to make ends meet on a fixed income. and anyone who is trying to do that now , um , given the inflation situation , given that , you know , the price at the oil pump , uh , the gasoline pump , when you go shopping for groceries , you see it every day. Costs are rising. And if you are living on a fixed income , that just makes it way more of a challenge. And when these guys , you know , they basically have their deal because of a collective bargaining agreement. And in Major League Baseball there are different so-called classes of players. So if you played during a certain period , you're in a certain class and your benefits are based on that class that you're in. And so these guys are saying , look , we love that everybody in Major League Baseball is doing as well as they're doing $12 billion in revenues in 2024. But hey , why can't we get a cost of living adjustment? And why do our wives get only half of our pension when we pass away?
S1: So , you know , you mentioned also speaking with Kurt Bevacqua , former padre , as you mentioned , and , you know , differentiating. You know him from , say , Randy Jones per se. These are not all star baseball players , right? Can you talk about how that plays into a role. Because this also you get into some of the details of the struggles of former players having of just like getting enough benefits based on the games they played. Right? Yes.
S7: Yes. This is a really important element of the story , which was kind of surprising to me. Um , now , how your pension benefits are calculated is based upon your service record with your various teams that you played with as a major League Baseball player. You know , many of the people I spoke with or journeymen players , you know , they're not the. You know , Johnny Benches of the world or even the Randy Joneses of the world. But. They did their time. They played for the love of the game. They didn't make a fortune. They often went Andrew to have another job after they were finished playing baseball. Because , you know , they did not have a huge amount of savings set up. So you have people who. Were maybe not , you know , at the at the apex level , but did you know , played love the game. Did their thing , did a lot for their teams etc. and are feeling like they're just , as you said earlier , being left behind. And that when you take off the uniform , there's no one there to really negotiate for you at the bargaining table. That was another message that I got. But the discrepancies that some of these players are finding with the record that Major League Baseball's pension office has of their time in the game is really a problem. And as the story mentioned , we had one player , Johnny Dieguito , who found that his record of play was missing a period of time that he had played. I think it was maybe with the Oakland A's and that he was owed $80,000 because of that discrepancy. So if you're starting to talk about , you know , numbers like that , that can make a difference in people's lives when they're on a fixed income. And the idea that you're not going to make good on this kind of sort of , you know , discrepancy or problem , I think it gives them a real reason to be upset.
S1: What changes do these former players and their and their families because some of them have passed away now , right. What changes would they like to see?
S7: Well , a lot of them have been asking for their service records so that they can check the service records to ensure that they're accurate. Okay. That they played you know , they weren't on the injured list. They were on the injured list. You know , they were called down to the minors. You know , that kind of thing is all it's all very complicated and convoluted. But they want to be able to check it. And it's really been a stone wall that they've met with from Major League Baseball Pension Office. As far as helping them to see if there are even any errors. So when these guys ask for their service records , they don't get the old very detailed card , which was really literally kept with , you know , pen and ink on a on a cardboard piece of , you know , paper. They now get sort of a type written , you know , um , uh , synopsis of what the day's played were and they can't verify it. And four of these players , including Randy Jones , were asking Major League Baseball pension for their accuracy on their records. And they have really just been met with a big no.
S1: So the timing of your reporting here is , is interesting in one respect that the , you know , the players association collective bargaining agreement , the current one , it ends in December of this year and a lot of folks are expecting a lockout. Um , I'm wondering , you know , how that plays into what all these older players are fighting for and their , you know , possibility that their concerns might be raised in this , in this , in these labor discussions coming up.
S7: Well , I actually asked about that. If there are if there's any indication that the collective bargaining agreement is going to address any of these issues , and there just does not appear to be any indication that it is even remotely on the table. Um , the problem that these guys say exists is that there is it would it would require a very kind of powerful current player with a lot of clout to sit down there and say , look , we've got to do the right thing for these guys. They did right by us all those years ago. We've got to do the right thing for them now , and there really hasn't been anyone willing to do that. Andrew. And so that's one element I think that's that's really frustrating for them. But the other piece of the puzzle is the people I talked to , the experts I talked to. Not the players , but the experts. They don't think it's all that much money that we're talking about. And so when you're talking about , you know , caps on the , you know , teams of what they can pay in salaries and on the , you know , millions and millions of dollars. This is we're not talking about huge money here that can satisfy what these men believe they're owed. And so you've got to sort of disconnect. It seems like , um , at the players association level here.
S1: Gretchen , you know , I think we hear a lot about how our population is skewing older. There are more seniors in our population , more seniors among our homeless population. I'm wondering if you see any parallel between the struggles of these former players , like Kurt Bevacqua , like Marie Jones , um , you know , Randy Jones widow and what other seniors are experiencing in our society more broadly.
S7: That's an excellent question , and there is no doubt about it. I talk to people a lot. I talked to teachers. I talked to public workers. Um , you know , we all think of folks who have pensions as being lucky. You know , they don't have to worry about their 401 K losing money in the stock market , or they don't have to make those decisions about the 401 K or the IRA. They can let an experienced professional handle it for them. But you know , the fact of the matter is that pensions , a lot of pensions are underfunded nowadays. That means a lot of beneficiaries of these pensions are really kind of worried about whether they're going to continue to receive what they are owed. And so there is a lot of stress out there. It's we sort of call it retirement Anxiety , but there is a lot of stress out there about outliving the money that you have and really having nothing left. And I understand it because costs just keep going up. You experience it , I'm sure , yourself. And so these people who have done all the right things , you know , or so they think , and so they say who now are kind of owed this money , they're worried about whether it's actually going to be there for them. Now the Major League Baseball pension is very wealthy. It's got almost $5 billion in assets. And so this is not a problem for that pension. But I do talk to a lot of different people in different walks of life who are have a ton of retirement anxiety.
S1: I've been speaking with Gretchen Morgenson. She's a financial reporter with NBC news. Gretchen , thanks so much for joining us. And we'll have a link to her story on our website. Gretchen , thanks. Okay.
S7: Okay.
S1: When we come back for our latest in San Diego storytellers , we hear about one local writer bringing indigenous horror to the forefront. This is KPBS roundtable. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. So roundtable is a place for journalists to share , make sense of the stories they're telling. But we also do like to highlight the works of other writers and artists in our community with San Diego storytellers. Just a few years ago , indigenous horror writer Shane Hawke , along with some of his fellow writers , had a vision for an anthology of dark fiction , all by native writers. That dream became a reality in 2023 , when the book Never Whistle at Night hit bookstore shelves and immediately connected with both readers and critics. It became a national bestseller , spending well over a year on the indie bestseller list. And now Shane Hawke and his co-editor Ted van Aalst are back with a follow up. It's called back for blood , Never Whistle at Night , part two , and Shane Hawke joins me now to talk more about the book and his work. Shane , welcome back to roundtable.
S8: Hey , Andrew. Thanks for having me.
S1: Great to have you here. So before getting into the new book , I just wanted to take a moment to reflect on the first book's success , which you've you know , at one point you described it as a moonshot. I'm wondering , as you look back on that now as you get ready for this new release , what moments stand out to you?
S8: Oh , there are quite a few moments. Um , yeah. We thought it was a moonshot because , you know , a Native American or Indigenous anthology like this has never been published at this level , the big five level. You know , we published with Penguin Random House. So , you know , we took our dreams , carried them on our back and slingshot , slingshot them to the moon and we hit the moon. So it was pretty crazy. Um , you know , we thought we were going to self-publish this or maybe do a small indie , um , indie horror imprint. Um , but no , we carried it all the way. Um , some highlights are just going out into the world and , you know , talking to colleges , universities. Um , the students that are really analyzing these stories. The major impacts that I've had and all the writers in this anthology , this first one , um , on indigenous students and non-Native folks as well , just really being interested in the stories that we have to share. Um , along with recently in , I believe , may , um , Netflix , uh , they put out the second season of the fourth , uh , the second season of the Four Seasons , uh , which is a comedy show with , uh , Tina Fey and Will Forte. And , uh , a fan pointed this out and they said , hey , I recognize that book. And they posted a screenshot or a , you know , a picture of their TV and a character was reading. Never was last night at the beach. And I was stunned. I was like , whoa , this is on Netflix. And so I immediately since I have a subscription , I went to that episode. It was season two , episode three , and I believe that the character's name is Claude. And sure enough , you know about less than five minutes into the episode. He's literally on the beach is flipping through it , and then even better , later on he's reading it again at night. And that scene was about 10s straight of the camera zooming in slowly just on the front cover. So it was an amazing promotion. Like a , uh , we didn't pay for it. It was just a random thing that the producers , I guess , chose to do. But that was a really neat thing to do.
S1: But also really demonstrates how it just connected with the broader culture as well. Right? Yeah.
S8: Yeah. And we've had so many people reach out on Instagram threads wherever saying , oh my gosh , we just saw this book on Netflix , you know? And now I just ordered a copy and it's amazing.
S1: Yeah , that's really cool. And then also just to not to add on to all the accolades on to you , but um , the the book is also , you know , been selected as part of the Barack Obama Presidential Center to in Chicago. Right?
S8: Yeah , that Presidential Center just opened on Juneteenth this year in Southside Chicago , and my friend and co-editor , Ted Van Elst , he was just browsing the Chicago Public Library's online system just to see , you know , his books are published as well. And he likes to see , you know , how many copies are out there , how long the holds are. And then he saw an everywhere at night had a non circulatory copy. And he said , what the heck is this. So he clicked on it and it said location. Um Obama presidential reading room. And so he looked into it immediately. You know , this was late at night , you know , because he's in Chicago. I'm in San Diego here and , you know , Wellington midnight , I was researching , what the heck does this mean? And it turns out that the Obamas selected titles to include in the specific reading room within that new presidential library where titles can't be checked out , but the public can enter that room and see all of the favorite books that the Obamas enjoy. And sure enough , it's in there. Wow.
S1: Wow. All right , so let's talk about the new book here. Tell us about the vision for back for Blood Never Whistle at Night , part two. It comes out this Tuesday. But yeah , give us give us the vision for it. And why you you wanted to follow it up with this collection? Yeah.
S8: Yeah. So it's out Tuesday. Um , and we really wanted to kind of put our foot down and put the pedal to the metal , because across all of these book signings , readings , university talks , what have you. Um , a lot of people come up to us and they say , hey , we love these stories in the first one. But you know what? If we crank it up a notch or , you know what? If we give them the real , real , real stuff? And so , um , we've also seen across online reviews that a lot of people had , you know , a bit more , um , a bit more push and pull for more horror. Because the first one was labeled as dark fiction. And so being a horror writer and editor myself and so is Ted , we thought , you know , hey , we have to do it this time. So it was , you know , from the start , it was the intention. You know , we need to have a horror anthology through and through. So we were very , um , meticulously curating this thing from the invitees , um , the established authors that we maybe were not friends with , but we know of them , and we reach out to them and say , hey , you know , a lot of these people aren't horror writers , but , you know , we want you to write a horror story. What's your version of a horror story? And it really has to at least somewhat comport to , you know , the genre's conventions , at least a little bit. And then we did the same thing for an open call. I even wrote an article and published it , you know , hey , this is what dark fiction is , and this is what horror is. and we are looking for the ladder and we can't wait to read your stories. We got over 150. It was pretty amazing.
S1: You know , briefly , can you talk about that distinction? How do you see that distinction between dark fiction or.
S8: Yeah , dark fiction I would say , is largely an umbrella term for any speculative story that delves into melancholy , heavily dark vibes. Um , it's really the darkness. You know , you can get into the sadness , you know , things that , you know , you probably don't really normally talk about in polite discussion. But there are things that we need to discuss. Uh , whereas horror , I believe , uh , is a lot more visceral. Um , you know , there's blood and guts , of course , but , um , you know , but it's , uh , I mean , it's also changing as a genre. So , you know , you see more creatures. You see , you know , the monsters , you see more horrific acts that are not just human. Um , you see a lot more supernatural things. Or as , um , in Western literary conventions we call supernatural , where a lot of us natives and indigenous folks , we just see it as reality or life. Um , and so horror we see as a bit a little bit crazier , a little bit less of the mundane. Um , and we tried to really hit those , those sweet spot for all readers.
S1: Uh , you know , I want to talk a little bit about the introduction to this anthology , which you wrote along with your co-editor. Yeah. I'm wondering if you can just , you know , briefly read a piece from that introduction and tell us more about what you wanted the reader to take from it. Sure.
S8: Sure. So here's a little excerpt. Carry the understanding that horror is not a detour from serious literature. It is one of literature's oldest modes , built to handle what polite forms refuse to hold. Bring a willingness to be unsettled not only by monsters , but by systems , by histories , by small choices that become habits and then become laws. Wow.
S1: Wow. I mean , yeah , talk talk more about , you know , what you wanted to convey there in those words , but also the introduction more broadly. Yeah.
S8: Yeah. So with that excerpt , I was really kind of answering this. This thing that we see in , in real life in online communities that say , you know , horror is kind of a joke of a genre or it's just like this silly thing that has creatures in blood and monsters , and let's not take it seriously , you know , versus literary fiction or memoirs or , you know , even crime fiction and such. Um , but I argue that , hey , it's one of the oldest ways that humans have , you know , confronted fear in the unknown. Um , and also , um , You know , it's you should also not just be afraid of the monsters in these stories or any other story that you hear from a Native American. But you should also think of the I would say it. I would call it the banality of evil in that , you know , everyday actions and complicity , you know , can accumulate into large scale , legalized injustice. And so these things that we kind of leave on the table , things that , you know , a lot of people ignore. They can grow into laws. They can really lock people up. They can take away land. They can have corporations swallow up water rights , what have you. My friend and co-editor , Ted van Aalst , he just shared with me that he was doing an event and a woman , um , associated with it said , hey , uh , I thought all the Indians were dead , you know , and that statement is very common to us. You know , it might be shocking to listeners , but that's kind of a thing that we come across. I came across it as a high school history teacher a lot , too. Um , but , you know , that's that's kind of a product of the system , you know. What school does she go to? Where the district guidelines. What the what guidelines are the teacher have , you know , how how does society treat these subjects? Are we just relegated to the past when , you know , are we just , uh , past tense people or are we real breathing right now? Present tense and future people?
S1: You know , we're we have just a little over two minutes left here. Um , and I just wanted to mention , in addition to curating the stories included in this new anthology , you also have a story of your own in it. It's called ivories. Yeah. And it touches on your life as a father of a young child. Um , you know , do you tend to get your ideas from everyday life? How do those ideas for stories evolve for you? Yeah.
S8: Yeah. For me , I like to incorporate real stories from my dad's side of the family. Um , and I like to either share stories that he's told or my grandpa or grandma is told and down the line , um , or just my own life. And really , it just kind of trickles in. Just any little thing can become a horror story if you think about it. You know , the way someone looks at you , the way you like. Last night I was taking out the trash and to the trash bins to the curb , and I was looking out into the the dark woods in front of me. And I was thinking , oh , you know what is out there? What's staring at me right now? So it can be anything , any part of your life. You can flip it and turn it into a horror story.
S1: Um , you know , you say you're a fan of ambiguous endings , and I think that's the case here with ivories. Why? What is it about ambiguous endings that you find? So I don't know. Intriguing.
S8: Well , I think I don't like stories that wrap up and give you a nice red bow. And you carry on with your day. Like a , say , a Disney fied ending. Because life , real life doesn't end that way. And even though we are writing fiction and some people see it as escapism , I do like to somewhat mirror real life and know that , you know , especially in the horror genre , horror continues. It's a cycle. Just like time is a circle. It it rotates and it comes back. Just like the monster never dies , it comes back again. That's what I think horror endings should be.
S1: I've been speaking with San Diego author Shane Hawke. Shane will be appearing this Tuesday , August 18th at the Book Catapult in South Park to celebrate the release of his book Never Whistle at Night Part two , back for blood. It's called. That starts at 7 p.m. and we'll have a link to that on our website. Show notes. Shane , thanks so much and congratulations on the new book.
S8: I appreciate it , Andrew. Oh.
S1: That'll do it for this week's roundtable. Thanks so much for listening. And to all of my guests today. If you have any thoughts on today's show , you can always email us at roundtable at PBS.org. You can also leave us a message at (619) 452-0228. Roundtables. Technical producer is Brandon Truffaut. The show is produced by Ashley Rush. Brooke Ruth is roundtable senior producer. I'm your host , Andrew Bracken. Thanks again. Have a great weekend.
