S1: Hey there , San Diego , it's time for KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. After previous votes supporting the use of automatic license plate readers in San Diego , City Council member Steven Whitburn now says it's time to turn them off. What it tells us about the state of AI assisted surveillance tech in San Diego today.
S2: Today I am calling on the city to turn off its flock cameras. They are causing too much fear for too many San Diegans.
S1: Then we take a look at what recent state housing bills mean for the city and county of San Diego. And a Padres legend reflects on his career on and off the baseball diamond. That's all coming up on KPBS roundtable. Earlier this week , City Council member Steven Whitburn took a new stance on automated license plate readers , or Alpers.
S2: Today , I am calling on the city to turn off its flock cameras. They are causing too much fear for too many San Diegans. It is difficult for me to continue supporting the use of flock license plate readers. What I keep hearing from so many people who are afraid that these cameras will be misused by our Federal Government. Whitburn.
S1: Whitburn. Opposition now creates an anti flock majority on the council. On the council rather. But San Diego's mayor and police chief are pushing back. They argue that Alps are needed to help solve important cases. It's the latest in this debate around surveillance tech here in San Diego , as police departments look to incorporate AI in new ways. Joining me to break it all down is Jacob McWhinney. He is an enterprise reporter at Voice of San Diego. Hey , Jacob.
S3: Hey , Andrew. Thanks for having. Me.
S1: Me. Great to have you here. So why is Whitman's new stance on FLoC particularly significant here?
S3: It is important because it breaks up what was once kind of a calcified majority on the council in support of flock cameras. We saw this really kind of show up in June , when there was a proposal to pass a budget that stripped out funding for flock cameras that was opposed 5 to 4. Whitburn was one of the folks who opposed it. So his switching creates this new 5 to 4 majority of people who are interested in getting flock out of San Diego. It's also really notable because of his reasons for that switch , right. He in that press conference praised flock , said that it was doing a really good job helping folks solve crime. But at the same time , you know , he really wanted to draw a distinction between what flock can do and the way it's making people feel. It was a very political decision , right? For him , it was driving fear , the potential that the federal government would use this to track people down , despite the fact that SPD prohibits that. Now , while there is this new majority , there are kind of a lot of asterisks there.
S1: Right , right. One of being we're under like an election right now. Right.
S3: Right. We are. We are. So the balance of this council may change , but also , you know , this next steps that we're going to be watching are November and December in December. The privacy report or the surveillance report will go before the full council. At that point they have the opportunity to cancel the contract , but were they to do that , they would need to muster up six votes to override a mayoral veto , which we expect Mayor Todd Gloria to do.
S1: You know. And on the subject of Mayor Gloria , remind us what supporters of flock like the mayor , also SPD Chief Scott Wahl , what they say about Alpers and why they're in favor of technology. Yeah.
S3: Yeah. So their argument is very simple. Alpers flock in particular , has been super effective in helping them solve crime. They say , you know , Mayor Scott Wahl in a statement emailed after Whitman's press conference , said that Flack and Apr has helped to solve over 900 crimes throughout the city. He also very interestingly singled out Whitburn , saying that it has helped in investigating hate crimes against LGBTQ folks in Whitman's district. Now , Woll said that oversight and accountability is welcomed from from their perspective and necessary , but that getting rid of these cameras would not be a good idea for essentially public safety.
S1: And your reporting also notes that I think in Whitman's district , which covers downtown San Diego , I mean , there's like the largest concentration of these cameras in his district , right? Yeah. So how are advocates responding to this news of weapons? You know , change of mind here.
S3: Advocates are responding kind of how you would expect. Right. There's a lot of welcoming of this decision. But at the same time , there is this kind of caution that they are messaging. One of those big reasons is that FLoC isn't the end all be all of surveillance tech of police tech. It is certainly the most prominent company in a company that we have seen growing national backlash to , as people have started to sour on the idea of police surveillance tech. But there are a whole lot of other companies kind of waiting in the wings should the city council decide to ditch FLoC. You know , one is axon is a police tech company. They already produce the body worn cameras that that officers wear. And so I think that a lot of advocates are really hoping to ensure that what they're doing is not just making toxic the name of FLoC , right. The goal is to push a broader message that that this kind of surveillance tech isn't welcome in our communities. So to ensure that even if they get rid of FLoC , they won't have to fight another battle. If another company were to just come in and take phlox place.
S1: Got it. So kind of like , I don't know if this example works , but I think , you know , thinking of Coke is one brand of soda rather than soda at large.
S3: Yeah , yeah , yeah , exactly. If you demonize coke , there's plenty of other options.
S1: Pepsi can.
S3: Fill at the fountain. You can choose. Yeah.
S1: Um , so just last week , you also reported that SDS is considering using AI to assist with police reports. What would that look like? And what's that? Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about that technology? Sure.
S3: Sure. Yeah. So this was an interesting story. I found essentially what is called a request for information. Now this is a step before even a request for proposal. And essentially what the police department is looking for is a program that can help assist officers in writing police reports. So police reports are essentially what what they , they produce after they go out and respond to a call. Um , and the department's goal is to create some or to , to find some sort of program that can help with efficiency , in their view , to make sure that officers can have more time to go respond to calls. Um , they say that they also are looking for something that ensures that the police reports are still , you know , managed and written mostly by by officers themselves. Control over the report , they say , is something very important to them. Now again , this is the first step. They describe this as an exploration phase and say that were they to decide to , you know , get this tech to , to , to bring this sort of thing into the department , they would have more broad conversations with community leaders and elected officials.
S1: Okay , so that's SD , San Diego PD specifically kind of exploring that. But what about other local law enforcement agencies and their use of AI and , you know , similar approaches? Yeah.
S3: Yeah. So so one example is Chula Vista. Chula Vista PD has has been kind of a trailblazer in this sort of police tech. They use , um , an AI tech to , to help , you know , assist officers in writing police reports. They've used it for years. They describe it as doing kind of exactly what SPD hopes , right? Something that can increase efficiency , that can get officers back on the streets , the program that they use , which is very likely what SPD would use should they choose to , to go down. This route is called first Draft and it's from axon , that very company that that you mentioned. Yeah , that produces , you know , SPD's body worn cameras because those body worn cameras are already moving around with officers every day. It's very easy for this tech to essentially be integrated , to be synced up. And these body worn cameras will go straight into this footage will go straight into axon. But it's not just Chula Vista , right? It is growing in popularity everywhere. And it's because it can kind of take off some of the , the , the difficulties of of writing a police report. And it does have some safeguards. Right. So for example , it requires that police officers , um , finish much of the report themselves , that they ride it , they author it themselves. It also as a safeguard can kind of like insert nonsense phrases into a police report requiring cops to read through it and ensure that you know they are doing their due diligence. Still , experts about this technology have raised concerns. You know , a recent study found that while these platforms may be able to produce writing that is technically better , it does decrease accuracy , which is a concern given the weightiness that we put on police reports in our legal system.
S1: You also spoke with Jared Wilson. He's the head of the San Diego police union. And he took you know , he took an interesting stance on AI in policing. What did you take away from that?
S3: Yeah , it was a very interesting stance. So so the day after this piece published , I spoke to Wilson. He is the president of the police of the union that represents San Diego Police Department. And he told me that he thinks this tech can be really good. It can help officers. But he was opposed to the department trying to get this tech right. Now , his main argument is that San Diego is so broke that we can't get the number of officers that we need , And if we can't do the basics right , we should not be dropping dollars on essentially shiny tech until , you know the city can figure out their money situation. But he also brought up some really interesting thoughts. One was about the the way I interpreted it. It was a sort of kind of predatory nature of these , these private companies. He actually literally compared them to drug dealers who who give people , you know , their product for free for a year or whatever and get them hooked and then start to charge. And by the time they start to charge , it's integrated into your system and you are reliant on it. It's much more difficult to pull out. Um , more than anything , though , he thought that an overreliance on tech and overreliance on AI is moving away from the kind of human centered policing that he felt was better. He he asked me , you know , do we want a future where we are kind of in this dystopian tech place where there are robots or AI responding to calls and not an officer that is , you know , known in the community. he said. That's not the future he wants and he doesn't think that it's the future a whole lot of people want.
S1: And similar to conversations we're hearing in other industries as well , as you mentioned , there are certain really important aspects of being used in law enforcement. Sure. I want to , you know , zoom out a little bit. In the time we have left with just over about a minute , we've seen , you know , public opposition being raised around AI as well as surveillance technology and , and the limits they should have on our streets and our communities. One viral example happened here in the San Diego City Council meeting this summer featuring , I don't know , pretty famous Star Wars character.
S4: The Emperor is a fan of flock , and we must continue utilizing flock technologies so that we can follow and surveil the rebel scum.
S1: I mean , that was just sort of like a pretty , you know , over the top , but it got a lot of attention. That's pretty , you know , pretty effective. Just like dialing into the Galactic Empire and how they would feel about this technology. That was a I think his name is Anthony. Ralph's there. But , you know , what are these stories around the use of these flat cameras , this idea of police departments like , stopped using , you know , integrating AI more in , in their work , say , about how the public is feeling around this new technology.
S3: I think that we're in a really unpredictable moment. Right. We're seeing a growing backlash , both nationally and globally , against the kind of increasing encroachment of AI on people's everyday lives. And it is a technology that has the power to completely reshape how the world works. And I don't think companies have done a great job of building trust in the general public. And there are fewer places where trust is more important or where the stakes are higher than in policing. So exactly how this plays out , I don't pretend to know , but I'd expect these fights to only become more pitched.
S1: I've been speaking with Voice of San Diego Enterprise reporter Jacob McWhinney. Jacob , thanks so much for being here.
S3: Thanks , Andrew.
S1: Coming up , we get a breakdown of what new state housing laws mean for San Diego. Roundtables back after the break. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. Governor Gavin Newsom has signed a number of new housing bills during his last few months in office , meant to make building housing easier in the state. He wanted to talk more about what these laws mean for San Diego , specifically. And Philip molnar has a new story out all about it , and he joins me now. Philip , welcome back to the show.
S5: Thank you so much for having me.
S1: Great to have you back. So , you know , just first off , how would you characterize just the more recent suite of housing laws that Governor Newsom has signed this year?
S5: So they're sort of small in the grand scheme of things. No big broad , overarching thing that's going to change any of our San Diego neighborhoods. And one of the sort of interesting things about this year's laws is they are sort of targeted at places where it's much more difficult to build , like San Francisco and Los Angeles. So in some cases , San Diego laws are a little more aggressive in terms of pro housing than even what the state came out with this year. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And so some of these laws you're saying are might have limited impact here , but a pair of them , you know , are kind of specifically aimed at one particular project in San Diego. And that's Midway Rising. You know , a pair of those aim to allow that development to move forward on that sports arena site. This has been in development and talks for years now. What do those laws mean for Midway Risings ability to move forward at this point?
S5: So they removed a lot of the legal obstacles that had sort of dogged this multibillion dollar development for years. And the gist of them both is they allow the project to sort of skirt some of the California Environmental Quality Act , which had slowed it down with lawsuits and all that kind of stuff. So but in terms of residential housing , it's it's massive. And this is why it's probably the biggest law passed this year that will affect San Diego , because we're talking about 4254 apartments which are planned there. That would make us that would make it the largest apartment complex in San Diego County , more than double the other one , which is Castle Maravilla in Mira mesa. Also , it has the plans for 2000 subsidized housing units or affordable housing is there sometimes called. And that would be by far our biggest affordable housing amount in any single project ever in our history.
S1: Yeah , so pretty historic like level there. And today , the San Diego City Council is expected to hold a committee vote , at least on the Midway Rising project before going to a final council vote , which it would go through in this fall if it still kind of makes it ahead. I mean , what are your what are you looking for in this project as it moves forward here at the city level?
S5: Well , definitely , if they , you know , follow through with as much housing as they're expecting. Uh , that will be a very interesting thing to watch as it goes on throughout the years. And then also , you know , my email box has been blowing up with people that are upset about the project. I don't know if it can derail it much anymore after these two state laws , but there's a lot of concern because , you know , for any of us that have driven in that Midway District area , it's it's a pain. It's a it's a bottleneck. It always feels like chaos. So there's a lot of concerns about adding a lot of new people to be living in that area. And one of the concerns before any of this stuff even happened with the law is that it may impede coastal access , because that's a main thoroughfare when you're heading to the coast. So yeah , that's that's sort of what we'll be watching. I don't think the criticisms are going to go away. Okay.
S1: Okay. So now moving on to some of these other laws , you also write in your story that ADUs , you know , accessory dwelling units , granny flats. We hear a lot of them , you know , called often. They've been having a you know , they become a bigger piece of our , you know , housing picture here in San Diego over the last few years , what changes have been made there? Okay.
S5: Okay. So the statewide law is called SB 1117 , and it lowers fees for building ADUs in a very specific way. So right now , governments charge something called impact fees. When you put in the Adu , it's the same for like a house or even an apartment building. The idea is these impact fees pay for like improvements to roads and maybe some other infrastructure things that are in a community. So you're adding a dwelling unit , there's going to be more people living there. So we need to cover our bases here in the city to pay for it. Okay , that's fine. But what happens sometimes in the state with builders is they will pay all these fees , they'll build their project , and then a government at like the 12th or 11th hour is going to come to them and say , hey , you know what? We need an even bigger infrastructure thing. We need like a traffic light , and we need this and that. So one of the things with development fees , there was a law for development fees. So developers are supposed to know sooner up front what they're getting into now. Uh , sorry , I went on a tangent Adu fees. So right now these impact fees are , um , you don't have to pay them if you build , like a 750 square foot Adu in your backyard. Okay. But if you go over 750ft , you have to pay all these impact fees , plus whatever you would have saved on the 750 to begin with. So a new law makes it that you don't have to pay anything on those first 750ft² that you build. Uh , you only have to pay for what you went over. So if you go for 1000ft². Uh adu. So the main thing there is it will lower the cost , potentially by thousands of dollars for someone just building an Adu in their backyard.
S1: Got it. But that particular law won't impact. You know , I guess one question I had is , you know , how does it look different if I want to build an Adu , if I live in the city of San Diego versus , you know , in Encinitas , say , or in another city in the county? Right.
S5: Right. It's probably going to have more of an impact outside of the city of San Diego because the city of San Diego , believe it or not , doesn't charge impact fees for the first two ADUs you build. However , um , in a place like la mesa , which has a little more straightforward , you're looking to save. Like , say , if you wanted to go to the absolute maximum , you wanted to build a 1200 square foot Adu. Well , you're under this new law. You'd be saving about $3,000 to put that townhouse or to put that Adu in. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. Interesting. Um , another , you know , kind of target of some of these laws is around townhomes. This is another , you know , sort of way to build more housing in and around San Diego. Tell us more about what could be changing for the construction of townhomes here. Okay.
S5: Okay. So the new law makes it easier to build townhouses in single family zone neighborhoods. Uh , this is probably going to cause all the pitchforks to come out here because , you know , in San Diego , 75% of our housing is zoned only for single family housing. And people are always super worried about that going away. But this law makes it that if a home has been vacant for like five years , even those it's pretty rare in San Diego. But let's say a home's been vacant somewhere in San Diego County. No one's lived there for five years. It is possible under this new law to tear that down and put up townhouses on that lot. So not only has this law actually already existed for a few years , but the new law makes it a little bit easier to get them approved and places timelines on a city government to approve it rather quickly.
S1: You made a couple references now , you mentioned getting a lot of emails on one story. You mentioned the pitchforks there , and you're kind of touching on just like , you know , how the strong opinions around housing and the approaches both the state and local governments may have been having on housing here in San Diego in recent years. How would you characterize what you hear from folks , and how do you balance that with , you know , maybe , I don't know , those not emailing you and kind of like how they feel about the changes in our housing stock.
S5: Well , there's the classic phrase that real estate is that the the last housing development project you want built is the one you move into. And that's definitely true. As far as my responses that I get throughout San Diego County. Most , most people that reach out to me are um , I would describe as like anti housing. But , um , you know , I also cover the economy in San Diego County and our unemployment rate is higher than the national average. We have the second highest inflation rate in the United States. So and that's just all of September by the way. So it's there are a lot of stress as far as paying for housing. And I think there's sort of like a maybe a bit of a silent majority out there that doesn't maybe read their local newspaper , that doesn't call and email me at all times. That is actually probably happy that we're building a little more housing and making it a little bit easier. So yeah , there is there is a real push and pull. But what I what I will say about a lot of these laws is they're very incremental changes. And like I said at the start , I don't see it making a huge difference in San Diego County. I've been wrong before , but you know , even when I talk to you , a lot of the pro housing organizations around town , they're kind of like , yeah , it's more of just a kind of a slower year. Interesting.
S1: Interesting. Um , you know , in addition to writing about these more recent housing laws , you also kind of took a look back at one , you know , pretty highly touted law that passed a few years ago and that was SB nine. Um , and maybe , you know , just how it's not had the effect that many had hoped. You know , can you talk about what we know about SB nine and how it's looked in in San Diego housing? Yeah.
S5: Yeah. And I think there will be very good context for all these new laws that passed. So basically in 2021 , the governor signed something called Senate Bill nine , which would allow you to build up to four homes of properties for homes , basically two townhomes for the most part on a site that have previously only been permitted to build a single family housing. Now , this was a huge deal. On Fox News , Tucker Carlson had this thing where he called it the death of the suburbs in like , blood red ink and like how this was the end of California. Well , the the law , you know , had some really strict requirements , like you had to , um , designate one of those homes for 55 years is subsidized housing. There are so many different things that made this law , like seem when you really dug down to it. If you got away from the headlines of what it was trying to do , that would probably not be very successful. And then , sure enough , the next year , after the law had come out , just 300 builders throughout the entire state had actually used it , and none in San Diego County. So it definitely was seen as a policy failure , but it probably got some of the most press I've seen of a housing law in California in maybe my last , you know , 11 years at the paper. But , um , and that's kind of what happened with a lot of these laws that I'm talking about now , because , you know , when you when you break it down , like , for instance , the townhouse law , the chances that you're going to have a house in very expensive San Diego County that no one's lived in for five years , not rented or even sold as a fixer upper are pretty , pretty slim. So how much is it going to make a difference? We'll have to see.
S1: I've been speaking with Philip molnar. He's senior business reporter with the San Diego Union Tribune. Philip , thanks so much.
S5: Thank you for having me.
S1: We'll have links to Philip's recent stories on our website and show notes today. Up next , our conversation with San Diego Padres legend Dave Winfield. This is KPBS roundtable. Stay tuned. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. It's been about a week now since the San Diego Padres season ended. After a memorable , though two brief playoff run this year. And even without that elusive World Series title , the Padres remain a beloved franchise in San Diego. They play in a ballpark downtown , often called the best in baseball , in front of a passionate fan base. But the Padres lasting image in San Diego impact in San Diego did not come about overnight. It took star players like Dave Winfield , who laid the foundation for the team we know today. The Hall of Famer reflects on that legacy in his book Touching All the Bases A Story of Power , Purpose , and Surviving the Bronx. The book explores not only his incredible , sometimes turbulent life in baseball , but also San Diego history , as well as Wind Field's own reflections on race and culture. Winfield joins me now.
S6: Welcome , Andrew. Thank you. Good to be here.
S1: Great to have you here. So you began your career with the Padres in 1973. You describe it in your book as , you know , being a new team in a growing city. What were your first impressions of San Diego when you arrived?
S6: Well , here I'm freshly minted out of college , University of Minnesota , and it was only the second time I ever set foot in San Diego. And in life , I had probably been to three Major League Baseball games , and all of a sudden I'm on a field with major league players against people like Henry Aaron and Willie Mays and Tom Seaver and and the field was humongous. It was a very large field.
S1: What was it was San Diego Stadium at that time. Yeah.
S6: Yeah.
S1: Later became Jack Murphy.
S6: Yeah , exactly , exactly. And the air was heavy and the walls were high and very far away. And I said , I think there's a lot that I'm going to have to learn , you know , because there were I was playing against men and I was still a boy. I'm 20 years old. Yeah , yeah. And away from home , really , for the first time , uh , starting my professional career. So there was a lot I had to learn.
S1: I think , even right , that when you started , you didn't even really have a place. You just kind of crashed with a teammate in Mission Valley. What was Mission Valley like at that time? Do you remember?
S6: Well , if I when I look at things now , everything is so built up now. I mean , there were empty hills , my drive up to Los Angeles , there were empty spaces along the way. Like if you're driving , you see Camp Pendleton. There's a few things on the side of the road , but now every space is taken. It's a new city. It's a new development. And so the city has grown tremendous downtown San Diego , you remember? Oh my gosh. It was really kind of a forsaken place. And , um , but it always had good bones to it. San Diego nowadays people say , what city would you recommend they come to America? I'd say , you know what? You might want to try San Diego first.
S1: But I mean , you also kind of , you know , talk about some of the struggles of being in an early franchise and some of the , you know , it kind of nearly left town early soon after you arrived , which I didn't even realize.
S6: Oh , yeah. Um , people remember when Ray Kroc , the.
S1: Founder of.
S6: McDonald's magnate , uh , bought the team at the beginning of the 1974 season. But the team was destined to go to Washington , D.C. , because it wasn't making it in San Diego.
S1: And I think the MLB had actually approved that.
S6: They did. In fact , there's some baseball cards somewhere where we have a W on a hat. You know , AI generated , I think now , um , but but the team stayed here. Ray Kroc owned the team for a while , and , um , it was different time. How about this? I'm a all star. Not in the beginning. Hall of Famer and all that stuff. But when I started my very first game , it was overwhelming. No , it's really underwhelming. There were 5400 people at the game. Think about it. Let me let it sink in. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Especially when you see Petco now. Right. And you were just there a few weeks ago , actually.
S6: Oh yeah. And there's no national TV. In seven years I played here. I think we're on national TV twice. Yeah. So people don't really. They didn't know who you were if you played out here.
S1: And you also talk about just like your own , I don't know , struggles here. And also just being in San Diego , you write about it. You said San Diego had plenty of soul Sol , but it didn't have any soul. So you'll talk about that. Well , you know , what was your experience like?
S6: Well , it was different. It was a diverse community , but it was different. It was just different. It was. It was white. It was Latino. There was a black community. It was , um , military. It was a lot of , you know , the surfing environment. It was totally different to me. Yeah. You know , even listening to the radio , I'm hearing the Spanish language and everything. So it was interesting to try to absorb everything while I was trying to learn to play the game at a higher level , because I was a pitcher largely in college. And then all of a sudden I had to play in the outfield the very first day.
S1: And not even not to mention , you were also a basketball star. I think you got drafted as a football like you have. You had a lot going for you , but you did find your , your , your game here in the major leagues. You played in San Diego for , for eight years. Um , and then you went on to sign a then record contract with the New York Yankees. Um , and a lot of your book kind of reflects on this period. And , you know , for people that may not remember just what the Yankees were , um , you know , we can talk about that , but the subtitle of your book , power , purpose , and Surviving the Bronx , I mean , just that word power. I just thought a lot about it when reading it. You know , you signed this immense contract , moving to the Yankees , and then a central character in the book came up. And that's New York Yankees owner George Steinbrenner. Um , talk about that relationship and why you wanted to reflect on it.
S6: Well , and and as people read my book , they should know that it's not just the normal sports book. Yeah. No , I drove in a lot of runs. I hit a lot of home runs. I was a world champion and all that. But a lot of people have that kind of story. Uh , growing up without a lot of money. Parents were divorced. You know , so I could have fallen , you know , by the wayside , all of those things. But as I'm making my way up the ladder , trying to do what I always envisioned as a youngster to be a professional baseball player , and all of a sudden I reached the ranks where I'm the number one pick. The Yankees wanted me , paid me more money than anyone ever made in team sports , any sport. And the owner of the team told me about a month after I was there , for no particular reason. I'm not going to pay you all your money , and if you don't like it , sue me.
S1: And this was related to payments to your your foundation. Really? Right.
S6: Oh , that was only one of the there were , there were two there were two other elements. We were going to do a joint , uh , marketing relationship and , um. It just as I , as I say these things and you see , as I talk to you , even though it's a smile on my face , it's a a wry smile. And it's not because I was happy and then not because it was funny , but every day I went to work for the next decade. It was a very toxic workplace , as what people would call it today.
S1: And , you know , reading it , you could really feel that. And , you know , and you said , this is not your typical baseball memoir when it really comes through , but particularly in this period of time. Um , you know , I think George Steinbrenner , for those that may not , you know , know him , some of them may only know him from Seinfeld in this sort of like , you know , cartoonish character. But he was , you know , re kind of revisiting what he did. He would like fire managers and rehire them. You really get a sense of just someone , I don't know , very a very turbulent space. And you talk it as a toxic workplace. Mhm. Um , you know , how did you think about it then. And I mean like how did you approach that especially , you know , being a professional athlete , having those , you know , stressors and responsibilities on your shoulders as well.
S6: Well it's something that I never imagined would happen because I knew that I brought value to a ball club , I came there , I'm a serious worker. I was like I said , bring value , I brought leadership , I brought community service. I put big numbers up on the board. If you wanted to win , you'd look. You look for a guy like me and , you know , totally committed to the service of that organization and for whatever reasons. And we never got to the bottom of it , even in his later years , later life. And we had a face to face discussion to bury the hatchet , if you will , or at least man to man talk. I asked him , you know , why did you do these things? And he could never answer. And it's like if somebody doesn't know why they do really despicable , underhanded , illegal , improper things to another individual. And that's the way you manage your Ballclub. That's not really the best way people would. Many people would say he does it because he wants to win. You don't treat people the way I was treated.
S1: And you're not exaggerating. There was literally criminal complaints like there was.
S6: Yeah , that's that's why he was excommunicated or he was. They took away his leadership role as owner of a ball club. He was going to be banned from running his team , the New York Yankees , forever.
S1: What did you learn about power and leadership? I mean , you've been kind of talking about this through what you went through with George Steinbrenner , because it's also a book about you exploring your own power , right?
S6: Yeah , well , it works both ways. It's like , how did I survive? How did I thrive? How did I deal with negative circumstances? Every day I went to work year day after day , season after season , year after year. And then on the other hand , you look at somebody that's as powerful and as visible as this individual was , because most people around baseball would know his name , and they would know who the Cincinnati Reds owner is or anything else. Why would you manage a multi-million dollar organization and you're hurting your best assets. You're trying to destroy , demean , undermine them. That is not the best way to succeed at business. But he had the history of the Yankees behind him. They've won 27 championships. There are many teams that never won once. So they figure whatever you do , let him slide , let him treat people the way he treats them and they've been successful. So be quiet and just keep playing baseball. But that wasn't me. Especially when you're doing things to me that affected my career , my vision , my legacy , my purpose in life. I'm trying to leave that small window of time. I'm trying to accomplish my dream , and you're intentionally standing in the way of it. So there is a serious rub , as we would say. And I had to battle it , and I did , and various different ways , and it changed all the time.
S1: So among , you know , these bases you touch on in this book repeatedly comes up is that of race? Um , you say , you know , you started writing this book , I think in 2020 , you know , around the time of George Floyd's murder , leading to a lot of reflections on , on race in America in our history. And I'm just wondering , how did that period reshape how you thought about your own experience as a black ballplayer in , you know , in your time?
S6: Well , when I played the let's see , the people that that performed in the game , African-Americans were 18 , 20 , 20%. So I was always comfortable , you know , with the diversity and the inclusion of people that played in the sport. But , um , I , there was a part of me , I wondered , why would this gentleman that owned the team treat me in the way he did when I am his best asset? There's something more to it. It never was , uh , discussed publicly. It never was put out there in the open. But in the back of my mind , of course , I thought this. Does this have something to do with race or whatever? And and on one hand , I could see him , the owner of the team , doing things for the HBCUs , the historically black colleges he.
S1: Contributed money to. Yeah.
S6: Yeah. And he had friends across the board. But , you know , I grew up in a time it was very turbulent in America. I mean , you turn on TV and the governor of Alabama saying Segregation today. Segregation tomorrow. Segregation forever or. You couldn't go to any school that you wanted to go to. You couldn't have any job you wanted to. I saw that in my community. I saw it with my family , intelligent people and their limitations on jobs that they could get. So of course , I that that's always a part of your thinking. But it didn't carry out into my actions the way I dealt with people , because where I grew up , my friends , if you look at any picture , whether it was in my church , whether it was on my teams , it was always a diverse group of people. So to me it never really mattered. My friends were everything , but still in the back of my mind , when I was working for my job , my career , I said , what's going on here? There's something a little bit off.
S1: So when you were inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame , you had a choice of of which team to go in which you wanted to wear. Um , and you ended up choosing the Padres hat. You became the first Padres player to be inducted in the Baseball Hall of Fame , not as a Yankee. Um , I don't know. Was that a hard decision for you to make?
S6: Yes , it was a it was a hard decision. Um , even though I had. Look , I played 22 years , six teams , both leagues , both coasts , both countries. And I started here. The Padres gave me my chance right out of college. I did my first everything here. Base hit , home run , RBI win. You know , All-Star game , uh , captain of the team , all kinds of things. And , um , the Yankees , people thought by the end of my career. Because that's when I was a mature ballplayer. I'm all star every year. One of the best in top ten. Probably every year that I played for , you know , 12 All-Star games in a row , people would think , oh , you want to be associated with the Yankees. But when I finished my career , the truth of the matter was it was between the team that brought me there and invested in me and believed in me. Or do I just go to a team that has treated me very badly for a decade , for the most , for 40% of my career? Do I want to just go along for the ride and say that I'm a Yankee? Or and I had no relationship. The owner of the team determined if there was a relationship and we had none. And so I didn't know. Even if I had chosen New York , would they even show up to support me? That's how different the situation was. But I made the right choice going to San Diego , and I have no apologies or anything like that.
S1: And I think Padre fans would agree with you and appreciate that as well. Um , you know , this book is you're kind of coming to terms with a lot of this this. You know , I don't say trauma , but like the toxic environment you talked about in your , um , complicated relationship with the not just George Steinbrenner , but other owners and just , you know , kind of the difficult positions you were put in. But , um , being an athlete today , I don't know , I think it's a lot more common for athletes to come out and , um , you know , be accepted , to be talked publicly about their mental health struggles or like , talk about them as their lives. A lot of athletes have podcasts now , right? Like they have a voice. How do you think? Like a professional , being a professional athlete has changed in your view? And do you think it's , you know , better , harder or easier? Like how do you see it? Wow.
S6: Wow. That's a that's a broad question. And I will say this things that I did in the 70s , um , athlete advocacy I was a member of the Players Association , the union , when I started. You made nothing. $15,000 a year. That's not meal money. That's for the entire season that we would make. There was also , um , there were things related to the all star game that I started here when I played for San Diego. Like , all of the festivities during , you know , people see the all star week that started here in San Diego because of something that I did. Um , support of the Negro League players. They never considered that. That's another thing that I was involved in , in making happen. Um , there are so many things that are different. There's technology , uh , in terms of the way they teach guys how to play the game , and it's not always correct. I wouldn't recommend going simply to the computer and using analytics and statistics to try to teach a person to play. I know you.
S1: You're going for the old fashioned way.
S6: Oh , yeah. Yeah. So a lot of things are different , but I would always recommend to young people it's a great game. It's something that I loved. And I would tell parents , let kids play another sport because they may not be any good in baseball and they should play soccer , tennis , football , anything else too?
S1: Well , I've been speaking with Dave Winfield. His book is called Touching All the Bases A Story of Power , purpose , and Surviving the Bronx. He'll be signing copies of his book Downtown at Hey Books at 921 East E Street , rather downtown , beginning this afternoon at two , and we'll be sure to get a link up on to that event. Dave , thanks so much for being here.
S6: My pleasure Andrew.
S1: And that'll do it for Round Table this week. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next week.
