S1: Hey , there's San Diego. It's time for KPBS roundtable. I'm Scott Rodd in for Andrew Bracken on today's show. State and federal Medicaid cuts could double California's uninsured rate over the next four years. A new documentary explores how hospitals are coping with these cuts and the human toll of losing coverage. Then San Diego caregivers are owed hundreds of thousands of dollars in stolen wages. Advocates say the state's enforcement system is broken , and why communities are rallying to oppose massive data centers in cities across Southern California. That's ahead on KPBS roundtable. Over the next few years , 2 million people could lose insurance in California. That means the uninsured rate could nearly double. Its a result of state and federal budget cuts and new restrictions on health coverage. The rollback on year unravels years of Medi-Cal expansion. A new documentary from Cal Matters and Evident tells the story of a health system in crisis.
S2: One of the biggest battle lines when it comes to the president's tax cut and spending bill are the cuts to Medicaid.
S3: What we're going to see is millions and millions of Californians who are going to lose their health care coverage.
S4: We certainly have compassion , but we don't have money.
S5: Good morning. This is Saint John Street medicine Dean. We are providing with medical health services. We do have a doctor on site.
S6: If Maria lost Medi-Cal , she would be at risk of homelessness. Again , health care is not something she can afford out of her own pocket.
S1: Joining me to talk about it is Kristen Wong. She's a health reporter for Cal Matters , and she directed and produced the documentary Inside California's Fight to Fund Health Care. Hi , Kristen.
S7: Hi , Scott. It's great to be here.
S1: It's great to have you on. Before we dive in , let's start with a quick refresher. This documentary focuses on Medi-Cal and Medicaid. Just in a nutshell. What are those programs?
S7: Yeah , so Medi-Cal and Medicaid are essentially the two names for the same program. Medicaid is the federal name , and Medi-Cal is the name that we have for in California. And those are publicly funded health care programs for people who are low income. So people who make less than 138% the federal poverty level , which equates to about $22,000 a year for an individual. So these tend to be , you know , very low income people who either are not getting insurance through work or just cannot afford to pay for health insurance out of pocket.
S1: Got it. And Medi-Cal coverage has expanded significantly in California in recent years. How has the how much has the program grown and why is that important?
S7: Yeah , California lawmakers and policymakers have spent , you know , more than a decade really substantially expanding the program. When the Affordable Care Act passed in 2010 , California moved pretty quickly to , um , expand both the income limit and some of the qualification categories that allowed about 5 million additional people to enroll in Medi-Cal. And then under Governor Gavin Newsom , the state has also incrementally expanded coverage to undocumented immigrant adults as well. Um , and so it's been a program that certainly has grown in terms of the number of people. And it has also , um , you know , a subject of much debate in the capital grown in terms of dollars as well. Um , in the past around , I think it's been the past 8 or 9 years , the medical budget has more than doubled , from about $90 billion ish to more than $2,000,000,200 billion.
S1: A substantial increase. Yeah , for sure. This documentary explores changes happening at the federal , state and local level. Let's start at the federal level. How did President Trump's one big , beautiful bill , which passed last year , impact Medicaid? Yeah.
S7: Yeah. You know , in our documentary , we spoke with a health policy expert , Mark Peterson from UCLA center for Health Policy Research. And he had just this quote , that kind of really sums it up. He said that , uh , why do you rob banks? That's where the money is. Why do you go after health care? That's where the money is. Right? Um , to in order to fund the the tax cuts and some other programs in the one big beautiful bill the federal government had. Congress had to find a way to cut spending substantially in other areas. And , you know , there are cuts across a variety of programs. But by far the largest cuts happened in the health care space for the Medicaid and Medi-Cal programs. So one big , beautiful bill cuts about $1 trillion from federal health care spending over the next decade. And for California , that's going to equate to about $30 billion lost per year. And that's about 15% of the state's current health care spending budget. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. And what cuts has the state made to its Medi-Cal program? And combined with the federal cuts , what has that meant for enrollment or folks who are on Medi-Cal?
S7: Yeah , the state has , um , you know , grappled with budget deficit , four consecutive years of budget deficits that sort of predate anything that happened at the federal level. So state leaders were already looking at ways to scale back a number of state programs , including the Medi-Cal health care program. And so a lot of the first limitations to come in , there is an enrollment freeze for undocumented immigrant adults that kicked in at the beginning of this year. Um , later , that population is also going to have to start paying premiums. And um , the state has other also done some other sort of wonky things like introduce asset limit caps , which means that you can't have savings , very much savings in your account if you're , uh , low income , um , or anything like that. It makes it difficult. A lot of advocates say for people to try and , like , save up a financial cushion and maybe get themselves off of these programs. Um , a lot of these cuts are sort of on an ongoing rolling basis , and many of them kick in start to kick in next year. So we're going to continue to see people sort of fall off of these programs in waves as the cuts kick in.
S1: Got it. Let's go to the local level now. You spent a lot of time in Los Angeles reporting on the ground for this story , for this documentary. What patient stories stood out to you in your reporting?
S7: Yeah , I you know , we spoke with many , many patients who , you know , of course , didn't make it into the documentary. A lot of stuff gets lost on the cutting room floor. But I think one of the big things that stood out to me is because California has both expanded the program in terms of who is eligible and what benefits are covered that Medi-Cal , for people who are particularly , you know , fragile , either they have a lot of health care needs. Maybe they have a lot of mental health needs. The Medi-Cal program really wraps services around them to stabilize them. And so there are people , um , for which Medi-Cal , you know , keeps them in housing or it gets them housed. Kind of a service that you wouldn't necessarily automatically associate with health care. Um , and we spoke with both a case manager. Um , her name was Vanessa Duran. And , um , a patient , Maria , as part of the documentary to kind of learn a little bit more about that process. And I think we also have a clip. Um , to hear a little bit about what Vanessa has to say about that.
S6: Maria lost Medi-Cal. She would be at risk of homelessness again. She would probably be in the hospital frequently , multiple times in a in a month. And she doesn't have a job. She doesn't have an income. So all of these things , health care is not something she can afford out of her own pocket.
S1: And you got behind the scenes. You got behind the scenes access to one health care provider in Los Angeles as well. It's pretty remarkable just what you were able to see. What did you hear about how these cuts are affecting their work.
S7: Yeah , I think I , you know , I think to be clear that the documentary does focus on sort of a health care clinic in Los Angeles and Los Angeles County's fight to try and find different funding streams for their health care programs. But this is a story that is playing out across clinics across the state , right? Like every single clinic , every single county , including San Diego , is is faced with the same issues , um , when it came to talking to providers who see patients every day. Um , a lot of them really talked about the difference the Affordable Care Act expansion made in their sort of everyday work , and how much higher level of care that they could provide to patients , because prior to the Affordable Care Act expansion , there were lots and lots and lots of uninsured people. California had the highest uninsured rate in the nation. Um , and when people walk into a clinic and they're uninsured , it's really limiting because , you know , specialists won't see them. They can't get medications , you know , they can't get blood drawn or scans and all kinds of stuff. And so oftentimes providers just had very few options. And these days now when people are insured , they can really treat them to a much higher standard of care. Um , and so I spoke to a physician assistant for the documentary. His name is Jesse Hoagland. And we can hear what he has to say.
S8: When someone does not have insurance. It really comes down to what can they afford if they cannot afford insurance? Can they really afford these medications? If I had someone who was having abdominal pain or pelvic pain , and I needed them to do an ultrasound and I know I couldn't wait six months , I would have to send them to the emergency room , which is even more expensive than just getting the ultrasound.
S1: The documentary also follows the passage of measure E.R. in Los Angeles County in June. The measure is expected to raise $1 billion for county health services. Kristen , what impact will this have for these patients in Los Angeles County?
S7: I think the passage of measure ER is going to have a significant impact in Los Angeles County in terms of preserving services. It's kind of going to be split up between clinics and the public health departments and , um , hospitals in need in L.A. County. Um , but I do think , you know , $1 billion sounds like a lot of money to everyday people. Um , and certainly there are affordability concerns about , you know , the measure is , is levying an increased sales tax on people who live in LA County. Um , but I think one of the things that came out very quickly , even after the measure passed , was that hospitals and health care clinics , everybody is still expecting to lose just hundreds of millions more dollars than the measure is expected to raise. So that just kind of gives you , I think , a sense of the scale of the loss that these funding cuts are causing for the health care system.
S1: In the documentary kind of ends on a sobering note where , you know , you have this passage of this measure in Los Angeles , but it that passage does that that measure won't do anything for California's 57 other counties. So so where does that leave them? Yeah.
S7: Yeah. It does not leave them in a very in a very good place. I think we are already seeing across the state a lot of layoffs happening. There have been more than 3500 layoffs at hospitals across the state. Um , there are health care systems up in the Bay area that are sort of , you know , debating doing more layoffs. Um , California has over the past several years seen just a massive wave of labor and delivery. Labor and delivery departments closed. Um , because those are high cost , expensive services. And I think that as this moves forward , because counties are going to be facing these very big deficits in the healthcare arena , we are going to see more of those effects , um , sort of rolling out. And of course , that that affects everyone , that sort of like loss of services and loss of access affects everyone , not just people who have Medi-Cal.
S1: In the minute we have left here. What questions were you left with after all of this reporting?
S7: I think , you know , this reporting was really eye opening to me. Even as someone who's been the health care reporter for about five years , um , it was still really eye opening to me to see how sort of tenuous a lot of Medi-Cal patients grasp is on their health insurance. Um , and that also goes for sort of middle income Californians , two on on who have covered California insurance. Uh , people sort of churn through these programs and really go through a lot of repeated periods of being uninsured. And that's before the bulk of these cuts have really kicked in. Um , and so as we sort of hit different dates on the calendar starting January of next year and then July of next year , when more and more of these cuts roll out , um , I really want to keep reporting on the story and staying on top of it , because I think different populations like , you know , seniors , undocumented immigrants and people with disabilities , these groups are going to start to see different impacts over time.
S1: I've been speaking with Kristin Wong. She's a health reporter for Cal Matters. She directed and produced the documentary Inside California's Fight to Fund Health Care. From Cal Matters and Evident. We'll have a link to the documentary on our website. That's KPBS. Kristen. Thank you.
S7: Of course. Thanks so much.
S1: Coming up , we explore why some caregivers in San Diego County are owed hundreds of thousands of dollars in stolen wages. KPBS roundtable is back after the break. Stay with us. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Scott Rod in for Andrew Bracken. Our next story takes us from healthcare to stolen wages. A new investigation from IE news source examines Widespread wage theft at a string of elderly care homes in San Diego County. The story also exposes the cracks in a statewide enforcement system that's meant to protect workers. Joining me now is Greg Moran , investigative reporter for I News Source , also freelance reporter. Jenna Misko , welcome to roundtable.
S9: Nice to see you , Scott.
S10: Excited to be here.
S1: So great to have both of you here. So , Jenna , I want to start with you. This reporting started with a question you were trying to answer about how wage theft is affecting the caregiver community. Tell us more. Yeah.
S10: Yeah. So I actually started off like this idea with the broader idea of just caregiving in general. At San Diego State , I double major in journalism and Asian American Studies , and from one of my classes , I attended this public library event that talked about the normalized exploitation within , specifically the Filipino caregiving community. And that's how I landed on the topic of wanting to learn more about caregivers. That's when I connected with the Filipino Worker Center , and they gave me the opportunity to really kind of like shadow them and to go to these residential care facilities , basically like homes within care homes within neighborhoods , and see , like the outreach that they were doing. And when following along with them , I noticed that they were talking to these caregivers about their rights as workers and wage what wage stuff is and informing them about that. And that really piqued my interest. Um , and I just felt like very inspired to follow that story. Um , knowing that a lot of these caregivers were Filipino and being Filipino myself. Um , and then that I took that idea kind of to Greg not really understanding how to navigate , um , the like , legal like document side of that.
S1: Getting out in the community , listening to community members , an excellent way to find a good story. Greg. So at this point , tell me about your involvement. How did you jump in?
S9: Well , we were talking. Gina had just begun her work at a news source , and we were just chatting in the newsroom and she mentioned this story to me , and it was kind of interested in it. And she , um , we ended up just she ended up showing me the county of San Diego , which is one of the things we found out , as I mentioned in the story , is is kind of a leader in this field of trying to assist workers in getting the money back that that has been stolen from them. They have a web page and a website that is dedicated to to wage theft. And one of the things on the website is a database that of all the companies that I think since 2017 that have had formal wage theft judgments against them , and just looking at that database , one thing that jumped out was a single company here in San Diego called Wealth Plus Management Group , LLC , that had several six figure wage theft judgments against them. And we kind of looked at it and quickly edited it up. And it was. It was $2 million in wage theft. So I thought , well , that's a story. You know , we should find out who this is , what they're doing and what's happened. And we both. And she was kind enough to let me kind of bigfoot her a little bit on the story and jump in and begin working on it.
S1: Well , it sounds like an excellent combination. You're getting voices from the community , you're digging into the documents and seeing a tremendous amount of wage theft ingredients for an excellent investigation. Tell me more about Leslie Wang in the various elderly care homes and companies that she operated. Maybe Greg will start with you. Yeah.
S9: Yeah. She is the owner of Wealth Plus Management , and we can't really tell you too much about her because we have not been able to find her , locate her or talk to her , which is not terribly unusual in a lot of wage theft case , but she is owner of a number of homes here in San Diego. These roofs , it looks like she started him more than a decade ago. She promotes them a little bit on her LinkedIn page as an investment vehicle , particularly geared towards Chinese citizens , nationals who are looking to to come to the United States. She says they are lucrative. They can throw off a lot of cash. Um , what we found out was that most of these wage violations occurred with a seven , I think seven workers at at a collection of homes in Poway , five homes , a kind of a raid around a cul de sac where there were all licensed CFDs with the state of California , and where all of these people worked at one time or another , and also lived there while they worked , which was one of the the real sources of the wage theft. So she , uh , you know , in kind of trolling through the records , these people made their complaints. You go through this very laborious process with the state. Um , they have a hearing and things like that. She never showed up for the hearings. Uh , she is not , uh , I think she showed up in for some of the court actions , but she's very difficult to track down.
S1: Jenna , what did you discover about , like , how frequently this is happening? And what were you hearing from the community and advocates about this? Yeah.
S10: Yeah. So , um , hearing from the advocates , I heard that it was normalized that this this is happening. And , um , that's kind of what piqued my interest because I if it is consistently happening , but I'm not seeing reporting on it. That's why I wanted to pursue the story. Um , and the advocates , they , um , talked about how the conditions , like Greg mentioned , it's there living out these residential care facilities. And with that means that the caretakers are living in the homes. Um , 2020. Like for 24 hours. They live where they work. So it's not just a place of income. It's also where they're working. And that creates that cycle of exploitation or opens up that door for , um , abuses to happen. Um , yeah.
S1: Let's jump into some of the individual stories , because they really were shocking. Maybe let's start with Paul Serato.
S10: Um , yeah. So , um , I'm very grateful that Paul was willing to share his experience with me. Um , Paul worked at the Solaris caregiving facilities for five months. Um , but just like , more background context about him , he was born in the Philippines and moved to the US when he was 19 years old. He worked in Alaska , um , for for years. And then it was in 2012 or 2018 when he moved to California. But in 2020 , when he started to work at the caregiving facility. Um , and he kind of gave me more context about , like , why he took on this job , and it was because he lacked transportation , but he also wanted a way to make income. So , like I mentioned , he saw this live in part of caregiving as an opportunity for him. Um , it was told to him that he would only be working during the day. Um , but when he started the job , it was not like that. He was working nearly around the clock and in in his labor board judgments , it says that he got at most three hours of sleep because of the care that he had to provide for these patients. And like the constant cleaning and other efforts that he had to do as , um , a caregiver. And it was just like , really , um , move moving to learn about his story and learn about what he went through. Um , but like , he ultimately ended up quitting and then he his wage claim is over $170,000 in wages.
S1: And you could see how someone who was looking for a situation where maybe they could work somewhere and lived there , that could have been a perfect arrangement , but clearly it turned into a nightmare where he was actually just living at work 24 hours a day. One thing that jumped out to me in the story is just how much Paul cared about these folks that he was providing care to , and so even while he was having all of these wages stolen from them , he really still felt a commitment to the work. Is that right?
S10: Yes , yes. I like one quote or something that he said that has really stuck with me ever since I interviewed him was he said , I take care of everyone. And at these facilities he was taking care of six patients , and he talked about like he was angry at the job for taking advantage of him and for his time , his labor for not giving him like the money that he is working to earn. But he he told me that he was never mad at the patients , and he really talked about how with the patients , He felt like the strong sense of duty to be there and to care for them. Because without that , like these patients , these elderly patients that are really dependent on care would feel might have felt like lonely without him , or he didn't know what was going to happen to them if he wasn't the one that was there to care for him. I think , like I mentioned earlier , he never got or he it says in his labor board judgment that he got at most three hours of sleep. He also didn't have like a bed of his own. In the five months that he worked there. He was sleeping on the couch , and it was arranged in a way where it was around like a buzzer , where he would be notified if a patient needed help. So he was not receiving that sleep because he would get up to help the patients at night. Remarkable.
S1: Remarkable. Um , this story is certainly a very close examination of what was happening at this , um , cluster of elderly care homes. But also look at the system more broadly. Why is there such a backlog of these wage theft cases at the state level. Maybe Greg will go to you with that.
S9: Yeah , that's a good question. You know , it's it's been known for a while that that particularly in California , the wage theft enforcement system is broken. In fact , the state auditor said that I think a couple of years ago they did a report on this and said that the system is not working. It's , uh , there's an enormous backlog of several hundred thousand cases each year in California. The news is , I could tell they get about 30,000 new claims from workers. And at the end of this very long process that you have to go through , if you have the stomach to go through it , the , the the payoff is , is pretty slight , I think. I think I'd read that about 12% of all workers who have a judgment in their favor actually collect money. It's extremely difficult. Um , it's broken for a couple of reasons. There's a lot of exploitative employers. Uh , it's difficult to , uh , Process these cases there. There's a lot coming in. There's not enough personnel in the in the Labor Department to process them in the case. We looked at a lot of the the actual wage theft occurred in 2021. They would file a claim. It would be a year , 18 months before they even got a hearing. It would be another six months before they got a decision. You're now two years down. Companies go bankrupt. They change ownership. They they do things to avoid or to obscure their ownership or their location. It just becomes very difficult. Then at the end when you get a judgment in your favor , then it's up to you to go collect collecting. It can be difficult. I mean , most of the people are exploited in these cases are working class people , you know , low wage , minimum wage workers or slightly above that , who really don't have the wherewithal. There means to go out and hire a collections agency or a lawyer or something like that. So the legislature has tried to address this with limited success. There's always a lot of pushback from business groups and employer groups to any kind of attempt to strengthen the system locally. Uh , San Diego County has been doing more than most places to help workers. Uh , they have an office that's dedicated to this. They have a program where workers can they can assign their judgment to the county , and the county goes and becomes the collection agents and can go to court and do all these things. But , um , it is a system much in need of reform. Uh , I think tougher laws on employee employees , but mostly , um , resources to process these claims faster and and a better way for people to collect. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. I can see how after going through all of that , having all these wages stolen , then you have to almost start a second job to try to go and get them back , while you're also probably trying to just make a living in the meantime. Exactly.
S9: Exactly. And the amount of money , I mean , that this this example , I mean , yeah , she's an outlier. I mean , these are very large judgments , but a lot of them are eight , ten , $12,000 , $15,000. But that's you know , that's a lot of money to , to to me. But but if you're a working class person , that's , that's a significant amount of money and the amount of money it would take to go hire somebody and , and troll through the paperwork and all the tactics that employers use , uh , to , to hide their assets and to and to hide themselves is probably going to cost more than than what you than what you're going to get. So that's why that county program is is good. I mean , it can the county can step in and kind of do some of that work on a , on a limited basis for people and get some money.
S1: Well , we're going to have to leave it there. I mean , a tremendous investigation. Really well done , both of you. You can you can read the reporting on news sources website. I've been speaking with freelance reporter reporter Jenna Misko as well as Greg Moran , investigative reporter for I news source. Jenna. Greg , thank you for joining me.
S10: Thanks , Scott. Thank you.
S1: Coming up , why so many communities are pushing back on data centers? Roundtable is back after the break. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Scott Rodd in for Andrew Bracken. Data centers are a huge source of debate these days. As the demand for artificial intelligence grows , so does the demand for computing power , hence massive data centers. But many communities are pushing back. They're rallying to pause or outright ban them. Joining me now are two reporters who are following that trend in Southern California. Corey Suzuki covers the South Bay and Imperial Valley for KPBS. Corey , welcome to roundtable.
S11: Hey , Scott.
S1: And Anthony Victoria is a reporter for KVK in in San Bernardino. Anthony , thanks for joining us.
S12: Thanks for having me on.
S1: Corey , I'm going to start with you. Let's run down some of the recent efforts to push back on data centers in the Imperial Valley. Last month , the town of Callopistria decided to take a step towards banning data centers. What's the significance there? Right.
S11: Right. Well , this is kind of the latest in a long running debate that's been unfolding over the last. I mean , it's almost close to a year now. There's been lots of public outcry over several at one in particular , large high profile data center project and Imperial County concerns about potential environmental costs and transparency. There's concerns about noise and air quality and health effects , and there's concerns about artificial intelligence broadly. And the town of Callopistria was really the first city in the county to start discussing actually pausing data center development. Now it's one of the first to be discussing advancing a potential ban. Interesting.
S1: Interesting. And so and there's also Imperial County , which has suspended all data center projects through May of 2027.
S11: Right , right. The county government and this is a big change in direction for them. They were previously advancing this large project that's been getting a lot of this attention. But in May , they sort of reversed course and decided to temporarily freeze development of all data center projects on county land. And last month they voted to extend that pause through next summer.
S1: There's a few other cities in the Imperial Valley. Why don't you run through a couple of them briefly and just summarize what's going on there? Right.
S11: Right. Well , in the city of Imperial , which has been pushing back against or questioning , raising questions about this data center project since the beginning. It's a little confusing. There's the city of Imperial. The county of Imperial. The city of Imperial has paused data center development and is also suing to try and halt this data center project that has been planned right next to residential neighborhoods in the city. The city of Calexico , to the south , second largest city in Imperial County , is also now considering an outright ban on data centers , which was sort of a surprise decision. And then the city of Brawley has also had conversations about a pause , and is planning to revisit those at sort of an ongoing discussion there kind of a little bit unclear where that's going to land , but those those are some of the conversations taking place right now.
S1: A lot of activity in the Imperial Valley on this topic. Anthony , I'm going to go to you. You covered a data center moratorium in Coachella. Were you seeing similar themes there as well? Absolutely.
S12: Absolutely. And I actually started reporting on data centers because residents in our region here in the Inland Empire were raising some of those same concerns that Corey was bringing up around water use , energy demand. And I had actually been following Corey's reporting and also paying attention to what was going on. And I noticed that some of that same pushback that we were seeing in these same communities in Imperial and Monterey Park were also , um , pushing back around those same reasons. Um , stepping back in time in February , the Coachella City Council , this is the city of Coachella , not the Coachella Valley approved , um , in agreement with , uh , with the data center developer and utility company Stronghold Power Systems. And in that agreement , um , the city had agreed with , with this data center developer to establish a utility , a city around utility. Um , but many people didn't realize that data centers were a part of the discussion until after this agreement had already been approved. And in fact , one resident had told me that they learned about the proposal only after seeing an advertisement. Um , in in a Business Insider story. And so by May , residents were packing city council meetings to raise their concerns. Many said that they felt excluded from the public input process and , as I mentioned , raised a lot of environmental concerns. And , you know , it wasn't until after this public pushback that the council actually voted to also implement a temporary pause on data center approvals. And just last month , the city's planning commission actually recommended a permanent ban on new data centers. Right. And , Scott , this isn't the only city in the Coachella Valley. Indio has also passed its own temporary pause on data centers. And a little bit farther west in the city of Paris. They're also considering a permanent ban as well. So we're kind of seeing that same pushback here. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. In that that storyline that you were describing in Coachella of local facilitation or approval and then push back , and then a band that seems to be kind of a familiar storyline playing out in a number of places. What are some of the biggest concerns that you're hearing from residents with data centers popping up in their communities? Corey , I'll go to you.
S11: Well , again , I think , you know , like Anthony mentioned , a lot of it comes down to in some ways , um , the the biggest , uh , potential needs of these data centers , which are these massive computing warehouses and which primarily , I think , I think first and foremost take a lot of power , a lot of energy to power these , which are some of the most powerful computer chips and just just a massive , massive facilities filled with them. Um , the data center project planned in Imperial County , uh , could use it would be a 300 and megawatt facility , which , um , taken kind of over the course of a year , would use more power than the entire county of Imperial. Used in a year. So I mean , that's kind of the scale that we're talking. And I think that beyond that to Imperial County is a place with this sort of long history of industrial extraction and pollution. And I think that is also raising these concerns for people as well. People think about the the legacy of a place like the Salton Sea , which is slowly drying up and which has raised a lot of fears about increased air pollution and and toxic chemicals potentially entering the air. And they look at new industries like this that want to come to the valley. And they have some serious questions about what the benefits will be to people who actually live , live here versus what potential needs these projects will have and what what potential negative effects they could they could have. And then I think people just have concerns about artificial intelligence broadly , too. It seems like this is something that we're seeing more and more as part of this data center debate. And this is something that , to be honest , I've been hearing from the beginning , also from people just questions about how necessary they feel like this technology is how much it's really going to to do for them if it's going to be replacing jobs , replacing people's livelihoods , while at the same time taking these , these dramatic costs.
S1: So a lot of concerns on the minds of residents in these communities where the data centers are being proposed. Anthony , what are the data center developers and maybe some local officials saying to convince folks that these data centers are a good idea? Yeah.
S12: Yeah. Just to briefly add on Corey's point , right. And this kind of speaks to your question about the city official perspective. So this pushback has actually convinced a lot of lawmakers , at least in the Coachella Valley , to reconsider the impacts of data centers to reconsider their impacts on the environment if the economic benefits outweigh the impacts. That sort of stuff. And a lot of them have actually changed their opinions. Now , the industry perspective is that they're doing their best. I've heard from scientists who have explained how technologies like closed loop cooling systems help recycle water and reduce water consumption. Um , but these same scientists say that , you know , transparency is key. And at least one industry group , um , the data Center Coalition , has shared with me , um , that they're doing their best to uplift transparency and encouraging their members to , you know , consider community input. Um , early on as they're moving , um , as they're moving projects forward. Now , with that said , Scott , um , I have heard from people in Coachella who feel like the city did take a good step forward and , you know , kind of moving towards a pause. But they feel like this is coming way too late in the game. And I think , you know , what I'm hearing a lot from both sides is transparency and information , right? I think the industry is frustrated that the public doesn't necessarily have a good understanding of how these renewable technologies work. Um , on the other side of that , I think the public feels that these developers can do way more to disclose information. Right. And this I have to add that this debate , we've seen this debate , uh , carry over in Sacramento. Right. Um , industry groups last year opposed a bill that would have required , um , the public disclosure of , uh , water use for , for these larger scale data centers. But Governor Newsom actually vetoed the measure. And so , you know , I think these are important questions. And , um , yeah , hopefully , you know , the industry does a better job to address them.
S1: Corey , you've reported that there are some some unions that have expressed concerns about losing out on potential jobs if these data centers are built or if there's a ban in place. How does that complicate this story? Right.
S11: Right. That's true. And that is a real part of this. Imperial County , in particular , is an area , a part of California , that doesn't have a lot of well-paying and stable jobs. And , um , the projects that we're talking about , this , this one particular project , but other data centers that that are planned in the , in the Valley could potentially bring , for sure , a large burst of construction jobs , temporary jobs , and then also some level of long term jobs. That amount is , um , is a little less clear. But when it comes to the actual number of or the kind of quantifying the amount of work that we're talking about here , Imperial County did an economic analysis of this specific large data center project next to the city of Imperial. They found that it would bring in between 1600 and 1700 construction jobs over the next two years , and that it would also bring potentially between 100 and 200 permanent operational jobs , with average salaries of between 85 to $120,000 a year. Now , I think people have questions about like , who would these jobs go to? Would they go to people , um , local who are trained to , to work in these centres? And then also , I think , again , people weigh these , these potential , um , opportunities against all of these other potential costs. But it's it's true. That's a that's certainly a part of the conversation that's happening. And it's , I think something that the local officials who were supporting the project had very close on their minds.
S1: Anthony , what's the significance of covering this story in Southern California? Because it's happening all over the country , both the proposal and development of data centers , but also the public outcry and the pushback and potential bans. So again , what's the what makes SoCal , um , unique in this conversation?
S12: I think it's something that Cory actually brought up earlier , and that's that a lot of these communities have legacies of toxic pollution or legacies of , um , being underserved , right? Um , Coachella is not much different than Imperial County in the sense that it's also close to the Salton Sea. And many residents there are also exposed to contaminants that have severe impacts on their livelihoods and their health. Um , the same thing could be said for places like , um , San Bernardino and the city of Paris , which for context is in Riverside County , southwest Riverside County and Monterey Park is a little unique in the sense that it's , you know , it is sort of next to. You know , a large freeway corridor. But many of the people that live there. Are , you know , educated , um , you know , have shown the ability , as we've seen , to mobilize and make an impact. Um , and I think that that is creating a movement among the public , especially in these communities that have been historically harmed. Um , that gives them hope and that gives them inspiration to , at the very least. You know , speak out and see if they can influence , um , you know , lawmakers to reconsider. And I think so far , um , we're seeing that here in the larger SoCal area. Um , you know , I think what folks have told me , at least in Coachella , is that they don't expect , um , the industry to , you know , kind of go away. Um , and I think that's what I've heard also from Stronghold Power Systems is that while they're disappointed in how or where the city of Coachella is headed. They are still looking to see if they can be a stakeholder , right? So I think it's an important conversation. And , um , yeah , communities will will continue to face these tough conversations moving forward.
S1: I've been speaking with Anthony Victoria , reporter for KVK in San Bernardino , also Corey Suzuki. He covers the South Bay and Imperial Valley for KPBS. You can find links to their to their recent reporting at KPBS. That'll do it for this week's roundtable. Thanks for listening. And thanks to all of our guests today. Roundtables. Technical producer is Brandon Truffaut. The show was produced by Ashley Rush. Brooke Ruth is roundtables senior producer. And I'm Scott rott in for Andrew Bracken. Stay cool , San Diego. Have a great weekend.
