S1: It's time for KPBS Midday Edition on today's show. A lot of people say they're burned out , but what exactly is burnout and how do you overcome it? I'm Jade Hindman with conversations that keep you informed , inspired , and make you think. From work to home , the job never stops. And how we manage that can prevent burnout. A panel of mental health specialists will break that down. Plus , we'll tell you about an upcoming event with resources to help you push through. That's ahead on Midday Edition. So by definition , burnout is a state of exhaustion resulting from chronic workplace stress. That's according to the World Health Organization. It could mean you're constantly exhausted at work. Maybe you can't find the motivation for tasks , or you're just numb and operating on autopilot. Well , when it comes to burnout , there's a lot of signs to look out for , and also a lot to unpack about the causes of burnout and how we can address them. Joining me now is Kate Morrisey. She's a co-founder and reporter with Daylight San Diego. Tomorrow , they'll actually be hosting a community conversation all about burnout at San Diego Maid Factory. Kate , welcome to Midday Edition. It's always good to have you on. Hi.
S2: Hi. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. So this this is one of those conversations that I'm sure a lot of people will find useful , especially the event that you all are hosting. Um , so I want to start with this , this event that is happening tomorrow evening. It's a panel about mental health and burnout. Why did you want to put this together?
S2: So , as you may know , Daylight San Diego started through community listening. We hosted listening sessions. We did surveys. We interviewed community members about how we could better serve them as journalists and what their information needs were , what their concerns were. And burnout is something that came up a lot in those conversations over the last couple of years. It continues to come up. Um , and that's sort of a wide range of , of , uh , ways that people are getting burnt out , whether it's through work , whether it's through volunteering , whether it's through , um , news intake and news burnout , there's a lot of different , um , things that can put those kinds of stressors on us to make us feel that exhaustion you were talking about make us feel like , you know , we just can't anymore with whatever it is that we that we feel this need to disengage. Right. And , and as journalists , our , our hope is to help people , uh , have the information that they need to make better decisions in their lives and to be able to engage in what's going on in the world around them and the ways that they want to. And if burnout is preventing them from doing that , then I think , you know , we have a responsibility to figure out what we can do to help with that. And so , um , one of the things that we do at daylight is to try to connect people together for in-person conversations , because we think that even just that , that community connection and empowerment through conversation can help alleviate some levels of of burnout that people are feeling because they feel more , uh , agency and able to to do something about it. So we'll be having that conversation tomorrow. We're going to open with a , um , sound bath meditation. We have , uh , panelists ranging from clinicians to workplace counselors , to , um , folks who will be talking about how. Uh , systems of oppression and identity can play a role in exacerbating burnout. Um , will have someone who has lived experience as a business owner and a mom and and a background in psychology , sort of talking about their experiences with burnout. So it should be a really great conversation. And then we'll be closing with a group activity to help people again , connect , because I think , uh , community is a really important component to figuring out how to navigate burnout.
S1: Something interesting that I thought you said is that when you , you know , or talking to people in the community , they point to burnout for a number of reasons. And I know typically when we talk about burnout , we're talking about it from the perspective of an occupational phenomenon. Um , but what I'm hearing you say is that people are talking about it outside of work. Absolutely.
S2: Absolutely. You know , I think about all of the people right now who are feeling this , um , intense pressure to volunteer or or take action in some kind of way to help their neighbors because of the times that we are in. Um , you can think about folks who are showing up for their immigrant neighbors , folks who are showing up for the LGBTQ neighbors , folks who are showing up , uh , to help those who no longer have access to , uh , food benefits. Right. There's there's a lot of people who are really going through it right now , and the people who are trying to show up for them kind of feel like everything is on fire. And it feels like this very like , you know , if I don't do this thing right now , like the world is going to fall apart. And that kind of pressure , even though it's not , um , you know , a paid occupation necessarily , uh , can definitely lead to burnout. And then even just in taking , you know , a lot of , of negative or heavy information can lead to news burnout. Um , and that's something that I think we as an industry also need to have a conversation about in terms of like , how can we responsibly balance the information that we're putting out there so that people can continue to take it in because we're not just asking them to take in heavy thing after heavy thing after heavy thing , because that's not healthy for anybody. It's not healthy. For those of us gathering the news , it's not healthy for the people taking in the news. And at some point people are going to stop listening because it's too much. Mm.
S1: Mm. Um , I want to talk about your experience with burnout. How have you how have you , you know , managed and navigated it in your , your own career.
S2: So I think our industry also , you know , is definitely one that easily leads to burnout. Um , because , you know , things like the 24 over seven news cycle , uh , just the amount of information that we have to take in all the time , we're , like , directly connected to that fire hose most of the time , and we feel like we have to be , uh. So I've definitely experienced , uh , burnout and secondary trauma through my work. Both of those things are things that come up for journalists very often , and I've had to learn how to set boundaries with my work so that I can continue to do it. You know , I really love my job. I feel a big responsibility , especially , you know , covering , um , immigration here in San Diego , uh , to be able to continue to do that. And so , you know , I have very strong boundaries with my phone. My phone actually hasn't made any noise since the spring of 2018. It doesn't vibrate. It doesn't it doesn't do anything. There's no notifications on the lock screen. I have to choose to engage with my phone , to unlock my phone , to see what's going on. And then certain apps like don't give me any notifications at all. So I have to open my work email to see that I have work emails. So that way it's not something that's interrupting my day and yelling at me to give it attention. I'm deciding when I have the time and mental capacity to give it attention. And I don't have any , um , you know , any , uh , breaking news alerts on my phone either. I've turned all of those off , and maybe I sound crazy as a journalist saying that. But I'll tell you what. I'm still here doing my job. And as far as I can tell , people seem to think I'm doing a fine job at it , even though my phone is on silent and I don't get those alerts. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. So what does rest in recovery look like for you?
S2: You know I think that's something that's personal to each individual person. But one of the things that I've learned in my own mental health journey is the importance of remembering the different kinds of rest and , and figuring out which kind of rest you need. Sleep is one kind of rest. Um , having social time with people you care about is another type of rest. Um , the thing that I do multiple times a week to help take care of myself is capoeira , which is a Brazilian martial art , and especially now working as a freelancer and as the co-founder of a startup nonprofit where I'm juggling a lot and working long hours , having that set class time , you know , 5 to 6 days a week where I know that I'm going to go , I'm going to be in community with people. I'm going to do something that brings me joy. It's something that gives me physical exercise. Um , and , and I set really firm boundaries where unless something is on , like a drop dead deadline , I'm going to set it down. I'm going to walk away from my computer , I'm going to go do capoeira. And then if I have to , I can come back and finish up afterwards. But that is my like , sacred time for myself.
S1: So there I mean , you've got a lot of great ideas about managing burnout. I'm curious to know , when did you first , um , discover that you were burned out? And what was your first line of defense? What was the first thing that you did? Did you reach out for therapy? Like , walk me through that.
S2: Oh , man. So prior to being a journalist , I worked in software. So I've been in industries where burnout is pretty common for most of my career , and I think the first time that I really , um , realized what was happening to me was back in 2018 , um , when when immigration news was , was really intensifying , and I did end up reaching out to the Employee Assistance program that my employer at the time offered , I was able to get some short term therapy , and they were able to talk me through some of these coping techniques and tools so that I could make some space for myself and try to get back to a healthy place.
S1: All right. Well , how does connection with others help combat burnout?
S2: So I think being able to be with people is an important kind of of rest. It's an important kind of refilling your cup. So for me , I'm , uh , I'm pretty extroverted , and so I need a lot of people time to refill my my cup. Someone who's introverted might need a lot more alone time in order to do that. But I think whether you're an introvert or an extrovert , there's a certain part of your cup that requires being around others and having that sort of socializing time , um , in order to rejuvenate yourself and , and remind yourself that there's there's joy , there's happiness , there's laughter. There's a lot of great things out there that we can feel , um , that aren't sort of connected to all of these things that are pulling us down , whether that's that's heavy news , whether that's , uh , long hours at work or trying to take on too much. And , and I think in community , we also have the opportunity to start to reframe how we think about work and , and calming down some of those needs to be so , uh , productive all the time , which I think is not the the healthiest habit of ours as a society.
S1: All right , Kate , I so appreciate your insight. I've been speaking with Kate Morrissey. She's a co-founder and reporter with Daylight San Diego , head to KPBS. For more information about the community conversation they're hosting tomorrow at the San Diego Made Factory. Kate. Thanks again.
S2: Thank you.
S1: Still to come , the conversation continues as we explore what research says about burnout and what it looks like in practice. When Midday Edition returns. Welcome back to KPBS midday Edition I'm Jade Hindman. Burnout is often treated like an individual problem , something we can solve within ourselves. Do some yoga , take a sick day. Set boundaries. But while those things are great , they don't always address the root causes of burnout , which often come from our surroundings. So what can we do about it? Well , joining me now are two experts. Lisa Nunn is a professor of sociology at the University of San Diego , and Nellie Tran is a community psychologist and professor at San Diego State. Welcome to you both.
S3: Thank you. Yes. Yeah.
S1: I'm glad to have you here for this conversation , Nellie. I'll start with you and start with some definitions. How would you define burnout?
S3: Burnout , I think , is something that happens over a long period of time. I often teach my students that when you say the word burnout , it's a recognition that something in your environment has gone wrong , that you've been under a lot of stress for a long time , and that you probably lack control over what's happening. It's something that self-care does not solve. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. And how would you describe it? Yeah.
S4: Yeah. Um , the people in my research study talked about all sorts of ways that they identified for themselves that they were burning out on the road to burnout or definitely all the way burned out. And um , a lot of it is just this feeling of like , I cannot face this. I cannot muster the energy to do this anymore , and it can have physical consequences. Lots of physical ailments can come out of burnout. It can manifest that way. It can manifest as just exhaustion and fatigue. And also this it can be this sense of kind of hopelessness for what you're doing , that it even matters , or has any value or a disconnection between yourself and what you're doing.
S1: And Lisa , I mean , I know there's there's debate over how to even define burnout and if it applies in different contexts. Um , what's your opinion on that?
S4: Yeah , the W.H.O. , the World Health Organization has a very clear definition of burnout. And , you know , they have it included in the latest International Classification of Diseases , ICD 11. Um , they don't classify it as a medical condition. They're very clear about that. The W.H.O. , they call it an occupational phenomenon. And they're the W.H.O. is very clear that it is limited to the workplace context , and I respect the W.H.O. a great deal. And a lot of people really , you know , hold firmly to their definition of burnout as a , you know , leading authority on things. But but I just disagree. I really see in my own research study and in just the life that I live and the people that I know , I really see how burnout can happen and is happening in all the various communities in our lives. It is not just a workplace thing. You can burnout as a family member. You can burnout as a soccer team member. You can burn out. Or maybe you're not the maybe you're the coach of the soccer team , right? There are so many places and ways that we can burn out. It's it's not just at work , is it?
S1: Does it have to do with culture , though , you think like , I mean , Western culture versus , um , eastern cultures , and we're more individualistic and individualized and other cultures are more community driven , and so labor may be maybe more shared in other communities than they are in Western societies. I don't know.
S4: Yeah , well , you're really touching on something that drives my thinking about burnout , my approach to studying it. I don't do international comparisons , but exactly what you're talking about , this idea that when we're in a community that genuinely cares about each other , right. Us as people and our holistic well-being , then that community does whatever it can to make sure that the driving factors of burnout are just minimized. And a lot of times , if we're talking about work overload , which is one not the only , but one of the driving factors of burnout , possible right drivers of burnout. If we're talking about work overload , then yeah , if we're in a community , whether that's a family or a workplace or a church community , If we're in a if we're in a community that is doing the work to make sure that no one is unfairly overburdened or burdened beyond their capacity , that we're stepping in for each other , or changing policies or changing expectations to make sure that work overload is not happening , then yeah. That's it.
S1: Nellie , how do you think about about it? I mean , how do you feel culture drives burnout?
S3: Well , I think a lot about workplace culture. And , you know , I think what you're thinking about in terms of kind of the international or individualistic versus collectivist like , is the extent to which we care about each other , the extent to which we're watching out for our most vulnerable. My work has always been in the area of microaggressions or subtle types of biases , and so I'm working a lot with folks who are on the margins of the groups that they're working with. Right. The workplaces , the first of their kind. They're first generation. And and so there's not many people looking out for them. They're not someone's typical protege because no one there looks like them. And so I think that for them , there's no one looking out changing policy. They're getting messages on a regular basis that they don't belong. Now , despite the fact that many people have the degrees , the credentials , the know how to do the job , there's a hypervigilance that's happening. And we often talk about this as invisible labor. And so it's it's a labor that it's a weight that you're carrying. And you don't get to put it down. Right. I think that that has always played into how much weight we're carrying in the workplace and how much burnout is happening if you have people caring for you. Right. Taking the load off , making sure that you don't have to feel as though you don't belong , or that you're not smart , then the load is less right. You're less likely than to be burnt out. You're more likely to enjoy being at work. But that vigilance is exhausting , right?
S1: So how can workplaces address that and how can people cope with that or overcome it , I should say. Yeah.
S3: Yeah. I'm so thankful that you asked how can the workplace , um , you know , work with that? Because oftentimes , you know , my work has stemmed from thinking about the imposter syndrome. And much like burnout , imposter syndrome , burnout , these words have been used to put the blame on the victim. Right. And and we're asked then to both take care of ourselves and to be productive in the workplace. And so I think that workplaces really need to think about how can we make sure that each of our employees , each of our members are cared for? I have a new idea that I've been working on called the Infiltrator Experience , where it's really it's really helping individuals who come into spaces where they already know they don't belong , hold on to their knowing about that space so that they can recognize the microaggressions , the environmental microaggressions that occur within that space , and that they can then look for community. That makes sense because oftentimes the advice is put yourself out there , you know , get people to like you , they'll like you and then they'll and then you'll feel as though you belong. That doesn't often happen , right? And again , it's asking the individual to assimilate , to become like the others in their environment.
S1: Extra labor.
S3: Yes , yes.
S1: Lisa , what are your thoughts on that? Yeah.
S4: Yeah. Um , well many things. One , I just really want to echo what Nelly and Jade have been emphasizing that burnout is not something that we cause for ourselves , and it's not something we can solve for ourselves. And there are lots of , um , misguided ideas about there , about all the things that we ought to change about ourselves in order to minimize or to resolve burnout. But really , those strategies , um , help us cope with the symptoms , and that's useful , right? I do need boundaries. I do need good time management. I do need mindfulness , rest , relaxation. But those aren't going to solve the root problems of burnout. So in workplaces , again , like any community we're a part of , the solution is to pay close attention to the realities of what our colleagues or our direct reports or our team members , the realities of their work experience. And check in , find out what's needed. Do what you can to have reasonable expectations asked of people. Do what you can to resolve situations where people feel like they don't have control of , or enough control or autonomy over their work. Do what you can to make sure that people feel appreciated and valued at work. I've so far touched on three of the six main drivers that burnout scholars identify. Um.
S1: And I want to talk more about that , too. I mean , what are some of the root causes here? Can you expand on that a bit more? Yeah.
S4: Yeah. Um , Christina Masak is a leader in burnout research. She's been doing this since the 70s. Um , if you have ever heard of the the assessment tool , the burnout , the burnout inventory , she's behind it. And her , not just her. She works with colleagues , but , um , her ideas center on six main driving factors. One is work overload. Another is a lack of control. Another is insufficient recognition and reward. There's also a breakdown of community that can drive burnout. Absence of fairness. And when you have value conflicts between yourself and the organization. And Matlack does focus on workplace contexts. So there are these six ways. It's not just having too much to do if you're doing even a reasonable amount of stuff , but there's an unfairness in the dynamics or an unfairness in who's getting credit or compensated properly or all of these things. Um , those are additional drivers of burnout , and you don't have to have all six to burn out. You can have just one. You can have a little hodgepodge of a few of them working in tandem to push you , push you , push you toward burnout. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And , you know , we hear a lot about those , those drivers now , uh , especially depending on what generation you're talking to , it seems. Um , Nellie , have you have you noticed a difference in how different generations speak about and recognized burnout?
S3: Yeah , I think our college students now talk about burnout a lot. And actually , you know , we've watched students burn out for a long time. I think that , you know , schools want more and more in order to get into college. Students are in more clubs. They're in , you know , they're participating in Greek life. They hold a job. They're helping with family. At San Diego State University , we are seeing , um , you know , we serve our local community. So I have a lot of students , especially those who gravitate towards the helping professions , who are giving of themselves more than ever. Right. They don't they have not yet learned boundaries , but they're also dealing with a family that is struggling. I have many students who are really struggling within kind of this political climate. They're worried about family members. They need to hold a job in order to pay for school and for their rent. And so they're they're extra stressed out. And so then to the lack of control over what's going to happen when they graduate , the lack of control that they feel around family members. All of that is contributing to how much burnout they feel. So I think that my colleagues and I have to do more suicide assessments than we ever have. I'm sending more students to counseling services. I'm worried about more students than I ever have been. And I think that that's the reality of the the times that we're in there using the word burnout. And it it it's appropriate for many of them. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. And Lisa , did you have.
S5: Anything you wanted to add to that? You.
S4: I echo everything Nellie has just been describing in my experiences with students at the University of San Diego to there is there is just an , um. Different kinds of responsibilities and commitments for different categories of students. But students are they have they take on a lot and they really strive to live up to excellence in every , every single thing they take on. And often it's impossible. And it , um , uh , not just being overcommitted. That's one way to end up burned out , but all kinds of other layers , like lack of control and all the things that Nellie was just describing play a part.
S1: One thing I think people probably struggle with is actually recognizing that they are , um , burnt out as well , especially , you know , when you've got a culture that places value on labor and the hustle , um , from where you all sit , you know , like , Nellie , why might people be in denial over feeling burnt out? I mean , we'll talk about some of the things that drives that.
S3: You can't be burnt out. Who's going to who's going to go to work? Who's going to pay the rent? Who's going to take care of the children? You know , and a lot of that is what takes the workers have to go to work. Right. We're talking about some of our most vulnerable populations. And if you have to make ends meet , you will do what is necessary. Um , the language that my students , you know , some of them use the word burnout , but the the word that I actually hear most frequently is stuck. You know , that they feel stuck. And so I think working with students who feel unstuck in the smallest possible way , I think has been really helpful that if you can just , you know , imagine what the smallest next step might be. Right. We're not going to fix the entire system , but sometimes going out and making sure that you feel as though you have a voice in the system can help just a little bit. Because the truth is , they have to still go to work , they have to still go to school. And , you know , that's where I think it helps them to know that we see their whole life , that we care about them. And I think this is true for the workplace as well. When we care for the whole person , we all win , right? We build that community and we'll get more productivity. You know , companies will make more money. You know , everyone will get what they want so long as we care for the whole person , the whole community.
S1: Lisa , you also study belonging as an antidote for burnout. Talk to me about the relationship between those two things.
S4: Yeah , thanks. Um , those same six drivers of burnout that I was just describing. It turns out that when those are flipped from something negative or something absent to something positive. Uh , those are the exact same kinds of factors or dynamics that create belonging among a group , a team , a family , a workplace , any kind of community. So , um , when we do the work of building belonging and by belonging , I have , I have a kind of a , um , a hearty definition of what belonging is and how you build it. But when we do that work , um , we're at the same time automatically mitigating these driving factors of burnout. So belonging is about being made to feel known and valued by the other people on our team , in our group , in our family , in our neighborhood , at our school , in our workplace , you name it. Being known and being value that people like what we bring to the table. They appreciate us. And then also a second layer of belonging is about really feeling like we're part of the US of the we. And that involves my community making it clear to me who we are , what we stand for , what we believe in , why we do the things the way that we do them , and convincing me that these are the good in the right ways to to live life or to do this work or to practice our faith or whatever it is. So when other people in my community do things that make me feel known and feel valued , that goes hand in hand with making sure that my well-being is safeguarded by not giving me unreasonable workloads or offering me autonomy and creativity in the way that I approach my work , for example , and having us clearly on the same page about things staves off other factors of burnout , like value conflicts between me and my organization , or an absence of fairness or a breakdown of community. That's one of my driving factors which just can't exist. If I am really made to feel like I am one of us. The key is that I can't do this for myself. I can't walk into a workplace or to a new faith community or anywhere and just demand to belong. The group has to make me feel like they genuinely value me , know me , and that I'm part of the US.
S1: So Nellie , what happens when the group or the workplace? um , is incapable of changing in that way.
S3: Yeah , I was just thinking , as Lisa was talking , I was like , what a privilege to be able to , you know , feel included because so many of the folks that I work with never get that experience at work or at school. And so I think it's a difficult thing when you've carried that weight for so long , for your entire life to not be able to feel a sense of belonging. And still there are things that people have done to cope with those environments. Right. That you can still take the risk to show up authentically yourself. Right. Sometimes I think I help my students to say , well , maybe you can throw in a , a , you know , a piece of your language and see who else is in the room who might gravitate towards that. How can you still find community within these spaces , and how can you design a career in a life that maybe your top values are not present here in this workplace , but is there something else of value here for you. Can you get that while you continue on this other path in search of what could be , you know , alignment towards other goals that no one setting , no one job is going to fulfill all of your needs and nor should it. We should have buckets , buckets of mentors , buckets of social support networks , buckets of places where values are filled. And I think that's how we , you know , how we don't rely solely on any one workplace or any one group to , um , to support our life goals. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And in the last 30s , is there a point where one should step away or is working through burnout? The answer which which one is it?
S4: There are a lot of factors that need to be weighed in such a decision , but I am a hearty advocate of stepping away , quitting a job , backing off of a community that is not doing right by you if you are giving more than you are getting in return. That's your first sign that I at least I recommend you evaluate what what's worth it.
S3: I think walking away is all about timing , so it's about truth telling for me. Can you see the truth of what's happening here? And if you can see the truth of what's happening , you can start planning your next steps. And it could be just about timing. When can I leave?
S4: Exactly right. Yep.
S1: Yep. All right. What an informative conversation. I've been speaking with Nellie Tran , community psychologist and professor at Sdsu , along with Lisa Nunn , professor of sociology at the University of San Diego. Thank you both so much.
S4: Thank you. Jade.
S3: Thank you.
S1: And if you're struggling with burnout or want to learn more , we'll have resources up on our website , KPBS. Up next , from work to home , we'll look at what a mayor the American Psychological Association calls parental burnout. when KPBS Midday Edition returns. Welcome back to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm Jade Hindman , so this hour we've been talking all about burnout , what it looks like , and how to combat it. Well , now we take a look at the topic from the perspective of parents , particularly working parents. Some people say life is. Say life as a working parent rather can feel like an unsolved puzzle. You know , get the kids to school , then on to work. Pick up the kids , maybe onto a sport activity or something after school , then back home. Homework , cook dinner. I mean , it goes on and on and on and on and on. And , you know , if that sounds like a lot for a parent to tackle , you're not alone. Um , recent data actually found nearly half of parents feel overwhelmed by stress most days. Joining me to talk more about parental burnout is Erin March-May. She's a lead clinical psychologist at sharp mesa Vista Hospital. Aaron , welcome back to Midday Edition.
S6: Thank you for having me again.
S1: So glad to have you on. So listen , the World Health Organization defines burnout as being a , quote , occupational phenomenon , unquote. We've been debating that definition on our show today. So I got some it got me to thinking about how parenting fits into that. Is parenting a job? An occupation of sorts?
S6: I suppose it could be here only because we know that burnout occurs with parenting , and certainly with the competing demands of working parents and needing to be 100% and show up for their kids , for their jobs , and for other areas of their lives , it can be really difficult to keep that up consistently , and burnout often does become part of that challenge.
S1: How does burnout tend to show up for parents?
S6: Burnout for parents looks often like wanting to spend high quality good time with your kids , but feeling pulled to do things that you need to do for work. Answering emails. But then on the flip side , while you're at work , you might be missing things for your children performances , soccer games , things that you really want to be able to show up for and that can really cause an emotional strain. It can increase your stressors. This desire to want to be all these places at once , and ultimately being perfect in all of those places doesn't exist.
S1: So what are some signs of burnout parents should be on the lookout for?
S6: So when we're thinking about burnout for parents , it's really important to think about , first of all , what you're telling yourself. If you are saying , I'm not good enough , I can't do this. I'm never going to be able to be the best parent or the parent I want to be. That's a really important time to take a step back and think about what what is actually going on here and and what parent kind of parent do you want to be? Because if you want to be someone who shows up for your kids and is present for them and spending quality time with them , you can still do that even with tremendous work life stress. Unfortunately , it does require some better boundaries and other challenges , but it is. It is something that you can work towards.
S1: And I want to talk more about.
S5: Those boundaries. A recent survey , though , I want to get to , found.
S1: That more than half of parents find it difficult to balance responsibilities at work and home. Um , but this survey quoted one mom , and it kind of struck me that it resonates with a lot of folks. I'm sure it says I'm supposed to work like I don't have kids and supposed to parent like I don't have a job. Um , that certainly rings true for a lot of folks. Is that a common view you hear from families you work with? Absolutely.
S6: Absolutely. I think unfortunately , that is where we have arrived as a society that we do need often to be working parents in the home , and we do need to show up for our kids , of course. And what that really means is that it can feel really difficult and almost impossible to be 100% at work and 100% at home. We know there's a fallacy of multitasking there that just isn't possible.
S1: And for working parents , another challenge can be separating work from family. Separating those two lives today , you often are expected to respond to that email even after you've left the office. Talk a bit about that.
S6: I think that is part of our jobs at times , and while that is something that might be a realistic expectation of your work , it is still important to clearly carve out ways that you can be present with your family. Putting away the phone for dinner time I know that's a really obvious and commonly discussed one , right? Thinking about ways that you can show up to your kids performance or basketball game , and not when they look over on the sidelines. You're not looking down at your phone. You're you're fully present and you're there for them so that you can really show up in those ways that you want to be. Because really , we know that in parenting quality over quantity really does matter , right?
S1: And it's about what you've described , which is just setting boundaries. Are there other areas that that parents should be focused on doing that?
S6: Well , I think one of the challenges is to really be your best self at work and your best self as a parent. You do need to take time for yourself to care for you , and that almost seems impossible when you're required to spend so much time in these other realms of your life. But it is important to identify what are your non-negotiables. Do you need X number of hours of sleep per night or to go to bed at a certain time? Do you need to make sure that you work out at least three times a week? What are the things that you can say? This is my boundary because I know that this makes me the best version of myself when I do it regularly.
S1: And on this point. Pew found about three quarters of moms say they don't have time for hobbies or interests. How can moms try to find that space for themselves , do you think?
S6: Well , I think part of this research study that was particularly interesting is this discussion about kind of what we're seeing with typical gender norms and gender roles more traditionally , but also what we're experiencing in the United States , that those things really can't exist any longer because we do need two working parents. And it is important to talk to your partner to understand where there can be greater balance , to be able to get support systems of other mothers together , to talk about ways that you can help support one another emotionally , but also how you can take things off each other's plates. If both parents are going to the same place to pick up kids , can you help one another in a way that helps decrease the burden on each of you?
S1: And talk to me a bit , a bit about that. Um , some some people feel mothers have more of the burden than fathers from where you sit. Is that true? And in what way?
S6: I think that. Of course it varies by family , but we know from this research study that there are perceptions that that mothers do require greater involvement in their parenting duties , involvement in their children's lives than men do. And that really comes from probably what is a more traditional gender roles , um , you know , viewpoint , but also that we know women do need to work and women are capable of working , and they want careers and they're allowed to engage in their lives in other ways , which is hard when at home , you may still be expected to do a majority of the housework , expected to do a majority of the childcare , and that can really create a greater storm for feeling burnt out when those continued expectations continue to be in place over time.
S1: How do you how do you think we as a society can better support working parents? I mean , one obvious thing maybe childcare and the lack of affordable options for working parents. Is is obviously a big issue here in California. Yeah.
S6: Yeah. So I think as a society really advocating for and understanding that when people are present and able to engage with their children , it improves our society , it improves everyone. And the idea that , um , working without flexible schedules , without PTO , without opportunities for childcare , it really does create additional stressors on families , particularly mothers. And it makes it really impossible to continue to juggle all of these demands that life has. And ultimately , that can lead to negative mental health outcomes anxiety , irritability , depression , of course , burnout that really then ultimately impacts how you engage with your child and your family in a negative way too.
S1: The big question in all this , I think , is how does burnout experienced by parents affect the children?
S6: Well , we know that whenever we're maybe not feeling our best , it impacts how we engage with those around us. And we know that when we're not emotionally available as parents , it impacts the way that our child receives care from us. It might impact the amount of undivided attention we can give them. We might be more irritable , have a shorter fuse , we might be on autopilot going through the motions. And kids can sense those things. And often , you know , it's not to say you have to be perfect one day , one moment when things are happening in your life and you're not fully present , that's okay. That's real. But also over a longer period of time , we do see greater behavioral challenges in kids more withdrawal from family relationships and seeking a connection and , you know , love and care in other ways that might not be so effective for them.
S1: You know , any final advice for parents who may be struggling with feelings of burnout or resources they can look to?
S6: So I think for parents that are struggling with burnout , one of the most important things is to really take a minute , take a step back and think about what your ultimate goal is. The goal is not perfectionism , it is balance. And how can you identify what looks right for you in your life? Don't think about what's expected of you or how other people perceive you. I think the other piece about this is really thinking about this idea of understanding. This is not a personal failure. This is not you and you having a hard time and you being unable to do these things. You are functioning within a system that has not been set up for success for you. And until ultimately , there's greater changes with that , it's important to recognize that some of the fault lies outside of yourself so that you're not so hard on yourself.
S1: I've been speaking with Aaron Matchmaker. She's a lead lead special clinical psychologist at sharp mesa Vista Hospital. Thank you so much for being here.
S6: Aaron , thank you for having me.
S1: That's our show for today. I'm your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.
