S1: Hey there , San Diego , it's time for KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. On today's show. A new investigation has found dozens of immigrants detained at the Otay Mason Detention Center have reported medical neglect while in custody. We learn more about what that investigation found amid ongoing calls for greater oversight. Then with Father's Day upon us , we hear about the science of fatherhood and how becoming a father changes dads brains in the process. Plus , a San Diego Storytellers profile of musician and artist Parker Edison during Black Music Month. It's all ahead on KPBS roundtable. We're almost a year and a half into the Trump administration's mass deportation campaign , and by now , we're starting to get a clearer picture of what's happening inside detention centers across the country. That includes places like the Otay Mesa Detention Center here in San Diego County. A new investigation from a news source outlines a pattern of concerns around medical care inside that center , from isolation to medical delays. It raises serious questions about oversight and accountability. Joining me now to unpack their findings are two journalists with a news source. Sofia mejias Pasco is an investigative border and immigration reporter. And Jake Kincaid is there investigative federal impact reporter. Sofia. Jake , welcome to roundtable.
S2: Thanks for having us.
S3: Thanks for having us.
S1: So , Sofia , take me back to where this reporting started for you. When did you start looking into what's been happening at the Otay Mesa mesa Detention Center? Sure.
S2: Sure. I'll start with my side. And then. And then let Jake tell his side of the story. But , um , late last year , I started looking into habeas corpus petitions , and these are essentially legal filings from immigrants challenging challenging their detention by Ice. So in this case , immigrants mostly who were detained at the Otay Mesa Detention Center. Um , and really , I was reporting on the , uh , astonishing rise and the number of these filings. But what I was noticing is that in many of them , immigrants were describing the conditions inside the Otay Mesa Detention Center , including medical care. So , um , I think as the months went on , there was a lot of interest in what was happening inside Otay Mesa. There was sort of tidbits that were coming out here and there of what conditions might , might be like. But at some point in this project , we decided , okay , we were going to look through as many of these petitions as we can in a certain time period and try to understand , um , how many immigrants we're talking about medical care in these petitions and and what exactly they were talking about. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And Jake , talk about at what point did your reporting cross paths with what Sophia was was looking into? Jake. I think we lost you there. So. Sophia.
S3: There we go. Sorry. Oh.
S1: Oh. Go ahead.
S3: Uh , yeah. I actually filed a request back in August of last year to get these 911 calls. Um , and it took a very long time for the records to come in , but they sort of trickled in , and , uh , as , as time went on , we wanted to , you know , pair the , the data with , you know , actual stories of people on the inside. And so , you know , we realized that the best way to do that , we tried a few things that didn't work was to , you know , use the stories from the petitions and , uh , use that as a way to contact people. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And Sophia , you climbed you know , you kind of comb through a lot of these court records as you've been kind of mentioning. What were some of the biggest through lines that emerged for you? Yeah.
S2: Yeah. So after going through more than 500 of these petitions , we found dozens that had mentioned concerns over health care inside or the level of care at Otay Mesa. Specifically , we found actually almost 70 petitions that mentioned these themes , and they included concerns , really , everything from like basic ailments to , you know , people with serious conditions. Um , in one case , you know , there was there are , um , maybe on the less serious side , there was a man who said he wasn't receiving medication for for his blood pressure. And then on the other end of the spectrum , there was a man with a rare progressive liver condition who , you know , his doctors had written multiple letters saying that he he required , um , intense medical surveillance and treatment. And , you know , those were both things that he said he wasn't getting at Otay Mesa. So he really saw a broad range of health concerns that people inside had , um , in particular people with , with chronic conditions. Right , who needed regular treatment , who needed , um , regular medication. They were represented also among among these petitions and among the people who were complaining about the conditions inside. Um , so some of the the conditions that people were saying that they were concerned about asthma , Crohn's disease , diabetes certainly was was among those , you know , just people who who had these conditions that required regular treatment routines that they say were disrupted while they were detained. Right.
S1: Right. And a lot of these can be serious , you know , medical , uh , a lot of medical serious medical things can happen from them. But with medication , regular medication , they can be kind of put at bay. As you mentioned , diabetes , there was one. And you focused one of your stories on telling us the story of Hannah Engen. Tell us about her and her experience in the Otay Mesa Detention Center. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. So I'll I'll just start with Hana as a person a little bit. She was 24 when when this happened , she came to the US first on a student visa. Um , and she eventually met her now husband playing volleyball in Mission Beach. So they were in the process of getting a green card for Hana when they were going to a scheduled , um , appointment , a scheduled check in with immigration authorities , and they had their interview. Everything went normal. And at the end of the interview , she says , you know , the person interviewing said , there are some Ice agents here to talk to you. And that's when she was detained. And Hana is a type one diabetic. So immediately when she was detained , she was very , very concerned because she spent years with this condition , sort of learning how to deal with it. And , um , you know , it's it's it's something where she takes up to ten shots of insulin a day , and she's constantly checking her blood sugar and trying to adjust. You know , her her lifestyle to match her blood sugar with diet and exercise and all of these things that she had spent sort of years learning how to carefully control. Now she was worried about how that was all going to work in detention. And it turns out , you know , from what she's told us , that , um , her diabetes was was not cared for , how she would care for it outside of the detention setting. So , for example , her insulin wasn't time to meals. Um , she ended up going. You know , she told us she went through these chaotic episodes of high blood sugar. That really left her fearful that she wouldn't make it out of detention. Um , and when she tried to ask for help , you know , sometimes she she felt ignored by medical staff. Um , and , you know , she really didn't get the care that she would have , um , that she would have needed. And really , what doctors said was , would be appropriate.
S1: And Jake , you brought the details of Hannah's experience to to several medical experts. What did they tell you?
S3: That's right. Again , important point is she wasn't getting the care that , you know , she had at home. And that's , you know , is what is an incumbent on on ice and coercive to provide detention is the level of care that that person has in the community , especially for a condition like hers. And , you know , what they said was that the level of care she received was potentially life threatening for a type one diabetic. And , you know , well beyond what standard medical care would be. Uh , and that sort of dovetailed in an interesting way with what we were seeing in the 911 call data and that there's , you know , a almost a fifth of the calls were for seizures , and that's a similar condition to type one diabetes , and that it requires very precise , regular administration of medication. And if that doesn't happen , then it quickly becomes an obvious medical emergency and people start having seizures. And so , you know , experts that we brought that to , you said that that was well above what would be expected in the normal population and then the normal proportion of 901 calls. And , you know , it could suggest that there's a similar issue in , in being on top of medication distributions.
S1: Sofia , you you also reached out to Immigration and Customs Enforcement and CoreCivic. It's the private company that runs the Otay Mesa facility. How did they respond? Yeah.
S2: Yeah. So they did not respond to the the specific cases that we brought to them , including Hana. But they did say , um , Corsia says that they administer , um , insulin and blood sugar checks , quote , when indicated. But they didn't tell us exactly when that was or why they weren't timed to meals as as Hana had told us. Um , CoreCivic told us that when it comes to chronic conditions , they have well for everybody. They have nurses that do intake. When someone is brought into the Otay Mesa Detention Center. They check for chronic conditions. They said that immigrant detainees have daily access to sign up for medical care and appointments , and that they can make , um , urgent requests for appointments. Um , but again , they didn't they didn't respond to really the the specific cases that we were bringing to them. Um , and Ice for its part , said that , um , detainees have access to , uh , to 124 access , 24 hour access to emergency medical care , uh , as well as , you know , mental health care and , and regular medical care. Um , and they said that the , the medical care that , uh , detainees receive in Ice custody is some of the best that they have received in their lives.
S1: Jake , I want to talk a little bit about oversight. I mean , you each have been talking about the journey you've gone on to. Kind of like going through all these records to to find out what's actually happening. Many of local leaders , national leaders , have also been kind of undertaking similar efforts. U.S. Representatives Sarah Jacobs , Mike Levin , they conducted several inspections of Otay Mesa. Um , what did they find? Just generally speaking.
S3: I mean , they they came out and said that , you know , they found that the conditions were generally acceptable , but in in many cases , uh , in those inspections , they weren't , you know , given full access to speak with detainees. Uh , and , you know , when the county went in , they weren't given access to the medical records the first time. You know , last week the county was actually able to complete one of those inspections. So it's it's going to be interesting to see , um , what they did find. They did , uh , seem to suggest when I spoke with them that there wasn't any , uh , obstruction this time around. So there's a report expected to come out in a few weeks. But yeah , that was one of the , big reasons we really wanted to dig into this reporting. If we felt like , you know , even Congress isn't able to speak with people on the inside , it it seemed really important to to try and find out ourselves and to lift up those stories. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And Sofia , the San Diego County Board of Supervisors , actually sued DHS in order to inspect that facility. They finally got access last Friday. What are you watching for? I think a report there is expected later this summer as well. Right.
S2: Yeah , yeah. And Jake , Jake can speak to the timing on that report , I think. But , you know , I think there's an obvious disconnect between what , um , what we're seeing in these , you know , and these petitions and these elegant and these allegations from immigrants who are detained inside. And then what , um , members of Congress have found when they've done their inspection. Um , you know , like Jake mentioned , there's been some barriers at times to those inspections , like not being able to interview the detainees. and at one point having to give a advance notice. But I think , you know , what we're going to be looking for is like whether or not the gap between what detainees are saying is happening and what elected officials find is happening , whether that gap is is closed at all , or whether we know any more about sort of why we're getting such different results on those ends.
S1: And Sophia , bringing it back to Hannah's story. I mean , what can you tell us about how she's doing now and , yeah , how she's feeling about that experience and where that goes for her?
S2: Yeah , I think she would say , you know , she is recovering from her experience. She said she lost some weight while she was detained and some muscle. And I think as someone who has spent most of her life trying to to manage her condition responsibly , she's just trying to get back to the basics , you know , working out again , seeing friends again and sort of getting her body back to the the state that it. It wasn't before she was detained. She's still in that process for her her green card application. Um , but I think , you know , she's sort of still dealing with the the mental effects of her detention. I think it it the loss of control that she felt over her own care , um , was something that still is with her today and something that she's still trying to get over.
S3: Jake in about the. Yeah , that the , uh , you know what what I found in speaking with the other people mentioned similar stories that this this burden sort of persisted after their care was disrupted. And , you know , one of the research that I spoke to who does research in California detention centers specifically has a study coming out that shows that these , uh , the mental health effects of having disruptions in , in care can persist for , for years and years. So , uh , you know , what she was experiencing being released from detention not long ago. Saying that , you know , is is shown to be something that affects them long term.
S1: More to follow up there. I've been speaking with Sofia machias , Pasco investigative border and immigration reporter with a news source along with Jake Kincaid. He's investigative federal impact reporter there , and we'll link to their full investigation on our website at pbs.org and in our show notes. Sofia. Jake , thanks so much for being here.
S2: Thank you.
S3: Thanks for having us.
S1: Coming up with Father's Day coming up this weekend , we take a look into the science of fatherhood. Stay tuned. Roundtable is back after the break. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. Few things can transform a man's life , like becoming a father. But the nature of fatherhood has been going through some significant changes over the past several decades. One example. Dads are now spending about four times as much time with their kids than they did 50 years ago. But what makes a good father , and what can we learn about how dads are changed by that experience? Professor Darby Saxby has been asking questions like this. In her research , she's a psychologist and neuroscientist at USC and author of the new book Dad Brain The New Science of Fatherhood and How It Shapes Men's Lives. Derby. Welcome to the show.
S4: Thanks for having me on.
S1: Great to have you here. So in a recent article for The Conversation , you make the case that fatherhood matters more than ever before. Why do you think that is?
S4: Well , as you mentioned , dads have really increased their day to day participation in childcare. So we've seen skyrocketing levels of father care compared to men of just a few generations ago. And we know that when kids have involved dads in their lives , they show better outcomes across a variety of domains. We also know that having dads involved take stress off of moms , and may even benefit men themselves in terms of a greater sense of connection and purpose.
S1: So let's talk a little bit about , you know , the science here. I mean , how high level how does fatherhood change our brains?
S4: So I've done longitudinal research in my lab at the University of Southern California. We have followed parents from before the birth of a baby all the way across the first year postpartum. And what we found in the brain is going to sound bad. So I will caveat to say that it is likely adaptive , which is the brain shrinks , it loses gray matter volume. Men show about a 1% reduction in the volume of their cortex over a transition to fatherhood , and we think that that's helping to streamline and make communication more efficient across some of the pathways where we see the most change , which are in what's called the mental Ising network , that's a network that activates when we think about other people's minds and intentions. And it's linked to empathy , which is , of course , very important in new parenthood.
S1: So in your book , Dad Brain , you cover a lot of , you know , science , but you also kind of delve in to the culture of fatherhood , how it's changed , but also the way it looks in other parts of the world and other societies. You write about the way the Akha pygmies of the Central Congo approach fatherhood in , in something of a unique way. Tell us more about that. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. So the Akha have actually been called the best dads in the world for the amount of time they spend with kids. There was one study that found that men spend about 47% of their time within arm's reach of an infant , and it's not unusual to see a group of men who are sitting in a circle drinking wine , each one of them holding a baby or a toddler. So there they have an egalitarian social structure. They're a hunter gatherer society , and the way they get their calories is through cooperative net hunting in which couples actually hunt together. So in a society that's set up that way , there's no real advantage of having separation between bread winning and caretaking. Both men and women participate in active , hands on care of kids.
S1: Yeah , and it's really interesting because then you also contrast the Akha pygmies in their approach with another nearby tribe , which has a vastly different approach to fatherhood. I think they , you know , you kind of write about how dads are almost like , intentionally kept away from from young children in a lot of respects. What are those very different approaches to fatherhood? Tell us about it. Right.
S4: Right. Yeah. In the other society , there are prohibitions against picking up your baby in the first year after birth. And I think it connects to this idea that fatherhood is a very useful adaptation that comes online when our local context demands it. So , like I said , the Akha women are really involved in resource gathering , and there isn't a lot of gender specialization in the Kipsigis. The the other society , it's a much more risky and hazardous affair to get resources. And so you have these stricter gender roles , and agriculture brings its own set of gender roles. And I think what's really interesting about contemporary society is that we're kind of in flux between these different models of gender specialization. Women are now earning income , and the fastest growing segment of the population is dual earner couples who make about the same amount of money. And so the father role is changing in parallel. And that's creating , I think , both a lot of new opportunity and also some tension. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And obviously challenges that come along with it. Another one that you write about is also just how the nature of parenting has changed , and that there's more , I think you kind of refer to it as parenting alone has become more prevalent. Talk to me about that in the ways that plays into modern fatherhood. Right.
S4: Right. So the Akha pygmies , who we were just talking about , are a perfect example of this. You know , parenting happens collectively. It's shared. There's a whole society of people who live in close proximity , and you have extended family and community who get involved in helping to care for a child. And hunter gatherer societies are the kinds of settings in which we humans spent about 95% of our human history. And so we really evolved as what's called cooperative breeders. We are designed to share care. And today we have this nuclear society model where couples are more isolated from those extended family intergenerational networks and from community networks , even just our built environment , people are often isolated in separate homes. And so you could argue fathers are doing even more than ever before because there's a lack of caregivers who are available to help pitch in with child rearing.
S1: I want to just turn briefly to you and your own experience. It's something you write about early in your book , but what originally drew you to want to focus your research on fatherhood?
S4: Yeah , so when I was nine , my parents got divorced , and my dad , who had been a fairly typical 1980s dad , you know , hands off , checked out , suddenly became a sole caretaker because my parents negotiated joint custody. So we would do a week at my mom's , a week at my dad's , and the weeks at my dad's. We were alone , my brothers and I and my sister with my dad , and he had to kind of figure out how to take care of us , how to feed us , how to bathe us , how to drive us places , how to help us with our homework. And I saw him become really a fantastic parent. And he told me much later when I was an adult , that that was a really meaningful experience for him. It kind of kept him going after the divorce. And so I've always been really interested in family dynamics and family roles and became a psychologist to try to better understand how families work , and have been studying dads in my own lab over the last 15 years.
S1: You know , I want to touch on something. You note this in your book that , you know , your research is here focuses more on cisgender , generally heterosexual male version of fatherhood. There's a lot of definitions , but I , I'm , I'm I'm wondering how changing and evolving understandings of gender play into , you know , how you define fatherhood and , you know , is there an opportunity for a reframing of fatherhood? And as we kind of reevaluate gender in our society today , that's been kind of happening over the past several years.
S4: It's interesting , when I first mapped out the book and what I wanted to say , I did not think I would include a chapter on masculinity. And then I ended up adding one and writing one , because there was just so much , I think , in the zeitgeist about the changing role of men and the kind of emergence of the manosphere , and within our politics , a lot of emphasis on what is it to be a man and on a resurgence of neo traditional gender roles. And I think fatherhood offers us this really pro-social vision of what it means to be a good man , looking out for the vulnerable , uh , teaching the young , you know , providing counsel and guidance and protection. And I think to whatever extent we can talk about those positive qualities of fatherhood , I think we can offer an alternative vision to , I think , some of the more toxic and disconnected images of fatherhood that that have been out in the discourse lately.
S1: So , you know , being it is Father's Day weekend. Uh , I don't know. Is there any advice for dads or maybe those with dads? What do you hope they take away from your work?
S4: I really hope this book is taken as a celebration of fatherhood. And I say in the book , you know , this is a love letter to dads everywhere. And part of the message is great parents are made , not born. You know , we might think that some parents , especially moms , just have this innate knack and they know what to do. The minute a baby is born , in fact , it takes a lot of learning. It takes practice. It takes trial and error. Caregiving is a skill. It's a verb. And and so I think to whatever extent dads can start to develop confidence in their own potential to be great parents and feel motivated to put in the time and get the practice , I hope that that's something they come away with. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. I mean , you have this this quote in the book I just wanted to share. Um , you know , you argue that the coolest and best thing about being human is our flexibility. And I think that's kind of what you were just touching on there. But I mean , briefly , we have about a minute left. What do you think that means? You know , can tell us about fatherhood. Right?
S4: Right? We have neuroplasticity. We can adapt to our circumstances. That's what's really amazing about us. And fathers especially are really variable and really plastic. So that's one thing we can celebrate about dads.
S1: So you're continuing your research into dads brains. You know this research can take years a long time. What questions are you most looking to answer right now in your research. And we have about 30s left.
S4: Yeah , we are doing a seven year follow up study right now. We're bringing the families back to the lab. So we're looking at how the dads fare and how the kids fare now that they're in middle childhood.
S1: I've been speaking with Professor Darby Saxby. She's a psychologist and neuroscientist at the University of Southern California and author of the book Dad Brain Derby. Thanks so much for being here and have a great Father's Day.
S4: You too. Thanks.
S1: Up next , a San Diego storytellers conversation about the history of San Diego rap and much more with Parker Edison. You're listening to KPBS roundtable. Stay tuned. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. Roundtable is a place for journalists to come share more about the stories they're telling. But the San Diego Tijuana region is home to a lot of other kinds of storytellers as well , and we'd like to highlight some of them with our series San Diego Storytellers. Over the past five decades , plus , rap music has become a revolutionary art form , a dominant cultural force across the world as well , and it has a rich and vibrant history. Here locally. One person who's part of that scene and has helped elevate some of these stories is Parker Edison. His work comes in a lot of different packages through the songs and the lyrics that drive that. Through his podcasts exploring local culture and history , through his videos and films , his own music label and much more. We wanted to talk more about his journey as a storyteller here in San Diego , but also more broadly about the history of San Diego rap here during Black Music Month. Here's my conversation with Parker Edison. You work , you know , kind of tried. It's hard to kind of encapsulate it all covers a lot of different ground. How do you define yourself in what you do? Would you consider yourself a storyteller , an artist create like. Yeah. How do you label that.
S5: A multimedia artist.
S1: Multimedia artist. So tell me more about what that encapsulates for you.
S5: Um , it's finding different means or platforms to kind of to convey the ideas that I have. So I might , I might have a song in mind and go to a live band , but then to present that in a way that it it is , you know , best taken in by the audience. We might do a stage show that , you know , we work with UCSD to , to get the lighting and everything to get just right. So just , you know , trying to pander the ideas so that it goes through the best way to convey it to the people.
S1: What drew you to rap? Because I think that really kind of captured your imagination pretty early on , too , right?
S5: Yeah , yeah. Um , my older brother Ron would have vinyl that was really hard to get. And that that's something that now I really values. He always wanted hard to find B-sides and unreleased stuff. Um , and so he would play that. But then later , As much as I love because I love all musics , you know , country classic , all the different stuff rock , rap pulls and utilizes and mixes from those. So it's another hodgepodge of the stuff that I already love.
S1: And that kind of comes back to this idea of collaboration , because you're always kind of collaborating , pushing and pulling , working with different artists across different genres. Talk more about how you kind of started doing that when you started making music , and why that's such an important piece for you.
S5: You know , you often hear that like New York and L.A. , have you get an idea you could take to a label? San Diego doesn't necessarily have that , but we have all the resources that these major music hubs have , you know , because we're their next door neighbors. So for me , I would always link up with people to fill in the blanks for what I didn't have. Right? So I might I might again , I might deal with a band to put out a record because the bands would have access to venues that wouldn't let me in , or they would have access to print shops that could put up , um , you know , copies of the , of the content for us. Right. So it was always this thing of filling in the blanks. And also I would just get bored with my ideas. Right. So when I team up with somebody else , there's a genuine sense of excitement there for me.
S1: And so in that collaboration , I mean , I don't know how do you describe your your approach as a musician? Is it more about a lyricist , like from lyrics perspective or , you know , how do you approach music when you start a new project or work on something new?
S5: I try to make soundtracks that that soundtrack life and sounds way bigger than it probably is , but I just try to make stuff that soundtracks life. Um , somebody told me that music is either for , uh , for love or for driving. That's the two things that music is for , right? It's either for for falling in love to or it's for driving. Um , and so that's what I'm trying to do is create. If I'm , if I'm in the musical realm , I'm trying to create stuff that becomes a soundtrack that you , you know , for people's lives , for the things you do. Otherwise , there's no place for the music to go.
S1: I want to hear a little bit. We've been talking about your music. You might as well hear some. This is a little bit of new River.
S6: From my criteria on the folk and say criteria. Cisco's in my efforts anywhere. The desert. Stevie on the moon. The moon is to the moon , to the river moon. The moon is to the moon , to the.
S7: Rivers in the sky. Here.
S6: Here. Is something special today? Thank you for sitting in. It's something gorgeous.
S1: And that's a little of new River from Parker Edison. So , Parker , you know , can you talk a little bit about the making of that track coming up with the lyrics , like how how did that look and how did how did you shape that sound that , that you created there?
S5: That is it started as a demo. I was in a group called Parker and The Number Man , and we took a hiatus. I went out to Seattle , fell in love , and we took a hiatus. So when I came back , I really didn't have those connections to to put out a record. So I just started putting these songs together with , with this producer , Mr. Ridley , who was very much sample based. So he had this beat and I , I it reminded me of the song new River. I would watch Breakfast at Tiffany's like every year , and it would remind me of that. So I started writing it based on , you know , movies and how I came up with movies. Then , as the demo was , was rounding out , I took it to Nathan Hubbard , who was one of my absolute favorite , favorite musicians. And he and I put together a small band , and we we began to do a live version of that song from the from the rap version. So then the EP comes out as the rap version with Mr. Ridley , and maybe a year or two later you get the live album with myself , Nathan Hubbard and John Reeder. Shout out to them. Um , and then that did really , really well. It got nominated for album of the year , which is huge for a rap record in San Diego. Um , and then we did kind of a throwback to MTV unplugged , which is the live version of it , almost an acoustic version. Uh , and that's when we get Sharon Taylor in there to play the stand up cello on that track , which is my absolute favorite part of that. It. It's something that that just makes it. It gets tingles down my spine every time. Mhm. Yeah.
S1: And so you're talking about Parker Meridian there. Yes , sir. Band. Okay. Um , so I want to zoom out now. You know , like to some of your podcast work. You did this podcast Rap Diego , about the history of rap in San Diego. How would you describe the story of San Diego rap?
S5: We're the. We're the dojo that artists perfect their craft. Um , and we are the best at whatever we choose to do. That's what San Diego doesn't get credit for. We're the best of whatever we choose to do. If we choose the skateboard , we're Tony Hawk. If we choose to sing , that's Andrew Day playing Billie Holiday. Um , if we choose to be comedians , that's Nick cannon standing right next to Kevin Hart. We don't always go for , like , the the big dollar , but we're always the absolute best at our craft. Right? And so that's that's you know what San Diego does.
S1: You've also talked about how San Diego is a city of transplants I think kind of put it. Absolutely. Which , you know , I think a lot of us come from someplace else. I'm in that category for sure. How do you think that that influences just the fabric of San Diego's culture?
S5: It gives us a you can get a little bit of everything here , and it gives us an awareness that you might not get in other cities and states , because we have people coming from everywhere. So we get their fashion , we get what's happening on the East Coast , the West Coast. We get what's happening internationally because of the military cats. Um , I think that's what it gives us a little bit , almost like a worldliness and an awareness that you don't always get in other places in the country.
S1: So back to Diego. This was a four part podcast series , you know , on the story of rape here in San Diego. But there was a lot more going on with just that. I think you kind of called it kind of , I don't know , you were kind of like approaching it more like an art history project. Tell me more about that and how you approached telling that overall story of rap here.
S5: I think , well , we were calling it an audio documentary , so we very much wanted it to be documenting this , this long , 40 year legacy of San Diego , of rap in San Diego. And it's just it's just an homage to all the people that that played a part in it. It's educational in the sense that if you're if you're unfamiliar with it , you can you can run through these episodes and get up to speed in 12 episodes. It's like a history book on , on , on the rap that's come out of the city.
S1: And again , that's KPBS podcast rap Diego. You can listen to that wherever you get your podcast. Let's listen to a little bit of the trailer right now.
S8: Don't tell me. Straight from Cedro.
S9: We'd go to LA and we'd literally be doing like , what we're doing right now. We'd be at B-Real house in his room , just chopping it up. When they got signed.
S10: They were trippin out that we had.
S9: Yeah , they would come to San Diego and they go , you guys ain't signed yet.
S6: Everybody gonna try to come.
S11: With the bang bang? Ain't nobody.
S5: The 90s bring us into a sonic renaissance with.
S11: Acts like Boot Without a Soul and the groundbreaking signing of Jail Felony to Def Jam Records. With me , I try to think out the box. Like when producers work for me , even to this day , I tell them , don't send me nothing. Which you think I'm gonna rap on. Send me something out of the ordinary so I can , you know , play with my what I do best. Play with these words with a beat that people wouldn't expect me to rap on.
S1: It's a really cool project , really interesting. I'm just wondering , like , what surprised you over the course of making rap , Diego , about the history of rap here in town. Like , did anything you know you weren't aware of before doing this?
S5: Tons of tons of little stories. The little stories of the people who were coming back and forth are playing a part in it. There's there's a story of , um , of rapper Deb E , who's a woman rapper who was in a vicious beat posse , which is one of the starting acts that that , you know , makes a name in San Diego rap. And it's about her doing an early song with Tupac before , before he did his , his singles or his solo albums when he was , you know , still doing digital underground stuff or , um , hearing this great story about jail felony being , uh , freestyling in New York with two rappers who would become component Noriega. And now Noriega is like one of the biggest rap podcasters , uh , in , in in rap. And so there's these little places that San Diego plays a part in these stories. And it it it's absolutely fascinating to me Always.
S1: You know , being an artist , being a storyteller. Like doing it as a job can can be challenging. Right. Especially in a place like San Diego. We know it's not cheap to live here. Um , how do you approach those challenges yourself as a creator , as , you know , someone making independent work for as long as you have here?
S5: I come in to rap in the 80s and 90s and the the big thing about that was merch. The merch that would come out was always more interesting than the music , and now it's turned over to where the merch makes more money than the music does , right? So I've always tried to find ways to present the music that wasn't just relying on cassette CDs or vinyl. So finding merch or finding creative merch collabs has always been something that it's always been a priority to me , and that has always made like the money for me. As I said , you know , the merch now sells more than the music , so it just really worked out. It worked out in the way that that raps evolved.
S1: I mean , you touched on how much music the music industry has changed over the last few decades. I think a lot of people would argue , you know , to the overall detriment of artists like , you know , specifically financially from streaming. How do you see it?
S5: I think it's the same. It's a , it's a it's still the Wild West. And you have to really , really it's survival of the fittest. Like all the all the platitudes still apply. Artists have to really love the art , to be able to survive in it , and to have the dedication that you can create a legacy or do something that's worth , you know , finding later. Yeah , it's it's not easy , but it's worth it.
S1: I mean , what's grabbing your interest right now? What are you excited about San Diego musically , creatively as you see it here in 2026?
S5: I want to say I think just the craft has elevated. It might be at one of its best levels. Like to to watch the appreciation of wordsmiths when you when on the mainstream , if you see , you know , Kendrick Lamar wins a Pulitzer Prize , it really put a value on the lyricism. Um , also the the compositions that people create sometimes with their , with their music , the artistry is really , really at this impressive place to me. So that's the part that still excites me when I watch , um , the wordplay and cadences of an artist like Dago Fats or , um , you know , just just that's that's the part that really still gets me the , the , the off the wall breaking of the purple circle from an artist like Rick Scales , the purple circles. You know , how many finding words that rhyme that people don't necessarily count on? Um , yeah. The the craftsmanship , the artistry right now is , is probably the best it's ever been.
S1: How have you seen I mean , just thinking about you mentioned the 80s and like listening to stuff and kind of your getting your passion for like rap for hip hop then um , and now , you know , it's like what celebrated , it's over 50 years old , this , this music and it's really taken over the world and all these different forms. You yourself are kind of creating your own version of it here in San Diego. Talk to me about like how you see rap right now and where it could go.
S5: This is the world phase. It started like if if the if it's four decades , it's five decades old. But you know , the first decade is is just getting it started off the ground that that first decade of the 80s is the die hards. They're doing it the the 90s is it's when it starts to to catch a flow and it starts to , to gain momentum. Right. In the 2000 , it gets into every home , right? And everyone gets , you know , it's all it's all over. And people become aware of it internationally. And the phase that we're in right now is everyone is doing their version of it. So even country singers are doing their version of rap , which is insane because these are some of the same groups that want it , nothing to do with it when it first came in , but now they've come around to see the value of it. So now I think it's in its world phase , and I'm I'm just as interested as anyone to see what happens next.
S1: You know , you talked about at the beginning just how you use this multimedia form. And you might you might start with an album , but it might be turn into something else. And that comes up , you know , talking about rap , you mentioned like podcasts and how that plays into it. And that's been a big part of your journey , especially like in recent years , you created the Parker Edison Project. It's like another podcast for KPBS. And in that show you just , you know , you explore cultural from culture , from all these different perspectives and all these different ways. Again , like rap history is there , right? We see a lot of hip hop culture. Um , what did you take away from that show with all these different angles you covered. And what question in your mind were you really trying to answer through that show?
S5: I wanted to show the culture that manifests as rap. I wanted to there's all these elements that when you combine them , they become rap or become hip hop. And I kind of wanted to isolate and spotlight some of those elements , you know , which might be fashion or money or religion or even laws. You know , that's that's what I was trying to really create with , with the Parker Edison project.
S1: I've been speaking with Parker Edison. He's a musician and the creator of KPBS podcasts like the Parker Edison Project as well as Rap Diego. He's also executive producer of Everybody's Doing It with Miss Lalli , another podcast on KPBS. And we'll include links to some of Parker's projects , some of his music in our show. Notes and at pbs.org. Parker , thanks so much for being here. Let's do it again sometime soon.
S12: Yeah , let's.
S13: It's a thin line. When you draw the line. When you cross the line , you got no spine. It's a thin line when you draw the line.
S1: That'll do it for our show this week. Thanks so much for listening. And to all my guests today. If you have any thoughts on today's show , you can always email us at roundtable at KPBS or leave us a message at (619) 452-0228. Roundtables. Technical producers this Week Rebecca Chacon and Brandon Tufa. The show is produced by Juliana Domingo and Ashley Rush. Brooke Ruth is roundtable senior producer. I'm your host , Andrew Bracken. Happy Juneteenth and have a great Father's Day.
