S1: Hey there , San Diego , it's time for KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. NPR white House correspondent Franco Ordonez joins us to talk about the challenges of covering the Trump administration and his often contentious relationship with the news media.
S2: He has used the media as a foil , as he has other , in his words , political opponents.
S1: Plus , San Diego is at the center of the live streaming world this weekend as TwitchCon returns to the convention center. We'll talk about the rise of streamer culture and how the platform Twitch has played a role in it , and the team behind the KPBS arts and culture podcast The Finest reflect on their latest season and San Diego culture. It's coming up on KPBS roundtable. On the heels of last week's midterms , we've been hearing a lot about how President Trump is reacting to the outcome and what it means for his remaining two years in office. Questions like these are what NPR's Franco Ordonez thinks about every day in his role as white House correspondent. Earlier this week , I got the chance to sit down with Franco during his visit to San Diego. Here's that conversation. So , you know , you're based in Washington , D.C.. You've been covering the white House since 2017. I'm wondering if you can just start by walking us through what a normal day looks like for you , if there is even such a thing.
S2: Yeah , I mean , it it does change so often. I think the running joke with the white House is covering the white House is it's a lot of hurry up and wait. You spend so much time kind of waiting for that big moment , and oftentimes you're in a van. You're , you know , in a line , you're you're leaning against the wall until that moment comes. Um , and I'm trying to think of like an example of this. And I mean , a recent one , I guess is kind of like this as the white House Correspondents Dinner. It's it's often when you least expect it. The white House Correspondents Dinner in the spring , you know , big event for the celebrate the First Amendment , celebrate journalism. This year the president announced that he was going to come , and it would have been. It was the first time the president , this President Trump , was going to come while he was sitting as president. And there was a lot of nerves and tensions about him being there , and especially because he actually said that he was going to criticize the press. He was going to kind of air a lot of his grievances. So there was already tension when that event happened at the Washington Hilton. And it was just a few moments into that event. Everything was calm and everything was chill. And then we heard those bang bang bangs , and a gunman had tried to kind of break the security barrier. And I'll never kind of forget the moment kind of peeking my head up from the tables , because everybody just jumped down below the tables and peeking my head up from the tables and seeing all these Secret Service agents , other officers kind of jumping over tables , jumping over chairs , jumping over people to get to their principals. Little did I realize that they were actually sitting at the tables , and I just used that as an example of kind of like it is definitely an extraordinary moment , but it's when you least expect it that you have to jump into the job. Because I was not expecting to work at that moment. But as soon as that happened , you know , my editor was there as well and , you know , said , hey , go talk to different reporters. What did you hear? What did they hear? How many shots were there? Um , who where did the sound come from? Did you see anyone actually get her? Go up to the front. See if you see anything. See if you see something red. If you see blood. So , you know , it's just kind of jumping into action right away immediately. You know , we took a car to the studio and we're reporting from NPR headquarters for much of the rest of the night , including when the president went to the briefing room and kind of spoke to the media there. So it is it is ever changing , but it has it has quite some moments.
S1: And that , I mean , that certainly was was quite a dramatic moment. I'm wondering , you know , what originally made you want to cover the white House?
S2: I mean , I've always been kind of fascinated with the job , but I actually never thought it was in the cards for me. I , you know , coming up as a journalist , when I was a young journalist , I was mostly a policy person covering immigration. Then I did some investigations. It wasn't until kind of later on where I had a chance to come to Washington , D.C. , where even the thought or potential of that came up. I was working at the Charlotte Observer in Charlotte , North Carolina , and I got an offer to be the North Carolina correspondent of the Washington correspondent for the North Carolina Papers of McClatchy. McClatchy newspapers was my old job , and I did that for a few years , covering North Carolina. Then did some immigration , which I had done before , and a little bit of investigation's work. But I was really a policy guy. I mean , a lot of the white House people traditionally have , you know , covered state legislatures have covered Congress. They've , you know , covered a lot of political campaigns. And I had not actually done that. So when I was asked to cover the Trump administration , I was at that moment just covering kind of diplomatic affairs , a lot of Latin America stuff for the Miami Herald. I was kind of stunned , and I was actually kind of nervous because I didn't have that kind of experience. But really , I actually felt it helped me with Trump because Trump was such an Orthodox politician. He wasn't a politician , you know , he didn't lead in a typical , you know , traditional way as any other president. So I kind of felt like that jack of all trades kind of experience actually helped me in looking at looking at how this president covers and kind of just seeing it from a different perspective and then than others did. And , you know , so often with a lot of the people who started off covering Trump , there was a lot of movement two years later in the midterms in 2018. And , you know , one of those calls was from NPR. And and here we are now.
S1: And there's yeah , I mean , that covers a lot of ground. You started your career in Trump's first term , as you said there. You mentioned kind of just some of the unorthodox nature of that , you know , of that administration. You know , President Trump has long treated the news media. I think , you know , it's fair to say with like , disdain in ways past presidents have not. Earlier this year , he banned CNN , MSNBC and Politico from the white House during a period there. How is that dynamic , that relationship with the press , you know? How does that affect how you do your job day in , day out? Because you have also covered the Biden administration. So you have another perspective here.
S2: Yeah , I mean , it is hard. I mean , when you have a president referring to the press sometimes as the enemy of the people , it's challenging , obviously , the pushing out of those media outlets CNN , Politico , others , ABC , sometimes ABC as well. You know , that's really unfortunate because it does come across as in the examples being given. There's no real evidence in the examples being given is he doesn't like the coverage. And , you know , NPR faced similar things as well. And with the whole defunding effort. So it has not been easy in that sense. This is part of the politics of the moment. This is , you know , President Trump since the first time he ran for election. He has used the media as a foil as he has other , in his words , political opponents. And this is a way that he runs on things. He draws attention to himself. He uses the media as a tool. At the same time , interestingly , that he is criticizing the media , though he is also very accessible to the media. He so many reporters have his phone number , have have given him calls he takes. Look , I mean , I was just election night.
S1: He was kind of doing several interviews right.
S2: Now , doing several interviews. Look , just this weekend , I was with the president in Florida. He went to Cape Canaveral , then was at his Palm Beach residence. I think I , you know , we had chances to ask him questions 3 or 4 times during that visit. Um , I was able to ask him like 5 or 6 questions. And just this past weekend , and I covered Biden for four years , and I did not have that many chances to. To ask Joe Biden that many questions , I just I just didn't. That type of accessibility is different now. There is a difference in kind of the kind of accessibility. So some people will say , well , that just shows that Trump is more accessible , but it's also kind of funneled information. Everything kind of comes through Trump. And this small group of people in the Biden administration , you had a lot more kind of background meetings. You had a lot more meetings with people at the State Department , with the NSC. You were given a lot more information in background briefings , in fact sheets. You know , some of that comes , uh , some of you get some of that from the Trump administration. But so much of it , the vast majority or the a large portion of it actually comes from Trump himself. And it is , you know , perhaps a little bit more surface level than and I miss all at the same time. I love being having access to the principal , to the president of the United States. At the same time , I also would like to have more access to some of the machinery below it who are kind of working on these issues and kind of driving those factors because you don't get that kind of access. So there is kind of a plus and minus here. Interesting.
S1: Interesting. You know , here in San Diego , one statement by the president that got a lot of attention came at an election rally last month where he mentioned , you know , just that he had a statement about Iran could take out San Diego , Los Angeles. I don't know if you remember that that period , that particular rally. But , you know , he's known for these bombastic statements that just get a lot of attention , get a lot of energy. How do you approach covering statements like those coming from , you know , the annals of power from the white House , from the president?
S2: Yeah , I mean , I think there's always kind of a balance with that. I think after certainly in the beginning , um , we probably had a lot of the same reaction that many people did. I mean , just driving headlines , you know , just covering this , uh , you know , storm the hedges type coverage. I think now , comments like that , we are able to take them a little bit more soberly and kind of understand them with a little bit more context. Um , recognize or at least try to recognize where is this type of comment coming from? Is it just a kind of a gut comment? Is it just something that he's saying in the heat of the moment because he heard something here or there? He has said a lot of these type of comments over the years. You know , he's tweeted a lot of these type of comments. There were definitely days where in the first administration , I was writing about his social media account more than things that he said himself. And so I think in this second administration , we've tried to be a little bit more cautious in what we cover. This president , you know , is seeking attention in many ways. And I think you kind of see examples of that since , um , the midterms. Uh , you know , add the day after the midterm or the day after the midterm. They're really just a shellacking against Republicans. The the president was kind of talking about his ballroom. Um , you know , I think there was some questionable decisions to be made a few days later. Um , he , you know , he. Let's go. Or , you know , Susie Wiles , his chief of staff , is leaving , and he's replacing her with one of the most ideological , uh , allies in the administration , Stephen Miller , who was at the hands , the architect of some of the most controversial policies , policies that many Republicans will argue contributed to those historic losses in the midterms. Um , and then , you know , just a couple of days ago , he , you know , put out this post that he wanted Dana White , the head of , uh , you know , Ultimate Fighting Championship , to be the press secretary. Can you? You can't even imagine the conversations that came out over that. But , you know , this is something that the president does. He likes to get attention. He likes to put something out there that is going to , you know , circulate and talk about it. And then oftentimes , you know , when the media or reporters like myself cover it and , you know , then he can turn around and then say , look how , look how how people overreacted. They realize that we were just joking. So it is a balance. And I think you got to be careful. You got to cover the president , but you also be you also don't want to kind of feed some of this less serious kind of activity.
S1: You mentioned Stephen Miller there. Um , and obviously , you know , he played such an important role in a lot of the immigration policies of the Trump administration. Um , and you mentioned earlier how you covered immigration before your time covering the white House. How has that helped you better understand better cover the white House having , you know , a relationship experience on that issue that this current administration has , you know , really focused on heavily.
S2: Yeah , I think it's been integral. I mean , I think if there is an issue that I've covered more in my career , it is immigration. And that's , you know , frankly , that's how I was able to get to the white House , get to the white House is also it was my immigration coverage that drew attention for. That's how NPR kind of learned about me. Um , in terms of like this white House immigration is the backbone of Trump's policy. It was his signature , an issue in his first administration , in his first campaign , it was a signature issue in his first administration. It was his signature issue again in his second campaign or his second campaign and his third campaign. And you could argue that that was a big part of his return to the white House. There were a lot of concerns that Biden wasn't doing enough to control the border and that immigration had gotten a bit out of hand. Trump fed on that. And , you know , as well as concerns about the economy and inflation , of course , but he was able to kind of take those steps and kind of run with it. It's definitely helped me cover this white House because I kind of I feel like I understand the issue better than a lot of people. I know the people who are involved. I've had conversations with Stephen Miller. I've had conversations with with those involved in the issue , and I understand kind of the emotional connection to it. I think what is fascinating about it is , is that now the president himself acknowledges that maybe they went a little bit too far with this issue. And that's kind of led to pushback. And that hurt him in these upcoming elections. What I think is going to be or what I , what I , what I'm very closely going to be watching going forward , is that the president has hinted at taking some kind of steps to help some groups of undocumented immigrants. But , you know , with Stephen Miller at the helm , I'm I'm in a bit of a wait and see mode.
S1: You know , I want to end on kind of like a personal note here. You mentioned just the politicized climate we're in , and there is sort of like a culture or discussions around burnout. Just how much has happened , whether you go all the way back , maybe to the pandemic , but definitely in these last few election cycles , I think politics has sort of become a bigger part of our lives in some form that maybe hadn't in years. Decades passed. And I'm wondering is , is that something you think about? Is burnout something that you yourself have thought about or struggled with in this era , almost ten years now covering the white House?
S2: Yeah , I mean , I definitely think , you know , President Trump has changed kind of the American politics so much and turned it into something that does cause a lot of burnout. I have a lot of colleagues who have kind of left this beat , whether it's the white House or politics , because it's just too much. You know , there's just so much , so much coverage , so much partisanship , so much negativity that it felt kind of hard to contribute. For me , I've , I've , you know , when I got into this , this beat , I , you know , I wanted to be a part of the day to day conversation. And this certainly is the day to day conversation. I think in some ways I think I've been able to because I've been doing it as long as I have. I've been able to kind of like step back. And I think I , I'm able to kind of step away in a way. You know , I think a lot of people I speak to , they asked me , you must be really tired. You must really go through emotional ups and downs with with all the coverage , whether it's the personal attacks , the attacks on the media or what have you. In some ways that that is true. In other ways. I actually feel being close to the issue , writing about the issue , talking about the issue , talking to others about the issue , I'm able to process it in a different way. I'm actually able to do something with that material , and whether it's the president saying something or doing something , I'm able to go talk to officials that he works with former officials , Republican strategists , and I'm able to kind of get some context about what's behind this. And there's often something more behind , whether it's , you know , that kind of whatever is happening , whether it's drawing attention , distracting from something else. My point is being able to kind of take action and do something I think kind of helps me just kind of helps me process things a little bit better. I think I'm able to take it a little less personal.
S1: I've been speaking with NPR white House correspondent Franco Ordonez. Franco , I just want to thank you. You know , welcome to San Diego again. But thanks for kind of breaking it down. I think sometimes it can feel like we're , you know , far away from from Washington , D.C.. So it's really interesting to hear your insight now.
S2: Thank you so much , Andrea. It's great to be here. And and I get it too. I mean , we're I think we're all just trying to make sense of of today's day in politics.
S1: Up next. TwitchCon kicks off today in San Diego. We learn more about how live streaming and the platform. Twitch has become a leading driver of internet culture. You're listening to KPBS roundtable. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable , I'm Andrew Bracken. Tens of thousands are expected in San Diego this weekend to take part in this year's TwitchCon. It kicks off later today at the San Diego Convention Center. It's an event that celebrates the culture of live streaming , bringing big name creators and fans together. And at the heart of it is the popular streaming platform Twitch. It started as a way for people to share video. Gameplay with friends has become a defining element of the internet today. Here to talk more about TwitchCon and streamer culture more broadly is Nathan Grayson. He's a tech journalist and co-founder of aftermath. He's also the author of the book Stream Big The Triumphs and Turmoils of Twitch and the Stars Behind the Screen. Hey , Nathan , welcome to the show.
S3: Thanks for having me.
S1: Yeah , thanks for being here. So , you know , for those who may not have a firm grasp of what , you know , streamer culture is , how would you explain what Twitch is and how it works?
S3: Um , yeah. So Twitch is a live streaming platform where basically people can , you know , broadcast themselves doing any number of things. Um , it was originally kind of dedicated mostly to video games. They even used to have a rule where if you were not streaming video games , you could , you know , get suspended or banned. Um , but has since broadened its scope to include kind of any activity you could really think of.
S1: And , you know , you mentioned how it started as this kind of way to share video games. That was like how I first heard about it. Um , it's still , you know , a big part of it , right? Streaming culture. But when did you first notice Twitch growing into something bigger than just a video game kind of sharing platform?
S3: Um , the kind of like inflection point for all of that was sort of the late 20 tens , I'd say 2017 , 2018. Um , that was around the time of the kind of Fortnite boom , that game got really big. And then as a result , so did streamers like Ninja. And then Ninja started collaborating with mainstream kind of , uh , celebrities , people like Drake and , you know. Then you had this moment of , oh , I guess this is more than just about video games. This has become an unmistakable part of pop culture. Right?
S1: Right? And that includes , you know , even just kind of like talk shows , arts , anything , you know , kind of all all under , like , you know , you can find it on Twitch at this point. And just to give us , you know , some perspective here , how popular is live streaming today.
S3: Um , I mean , it's pretty enormous. Like , some of the biggest streamers are , again , verging on having mainstream popularity , I would say , or at least like an amount of enough people know of them that I would say they are functionally famous. I mean , everybody I think this election cycle heard the name Hassan Piker , at least if they've watched or if they've watched CNN or Fox News or what have you. Um , but there's also big names like Kai Sinnett. Um , he , I think a couple of years now did a , like , gathering in New York City that became. So it was like a giveaway of PlayStation fives. So many people showed up that it had to be broken up by the police because it was like basically a giant riot. He did not incite it , obviously , or did not try to , but I think it was one of those moments where somebody didn't recognize just how popular they were until they went out and experienced all their fans firsthand. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And I'm talking more about just like , I don't know what it means to be a famous , you know , internet celebrity or like , you know , how how that kind of plays into it today. But you mentioned Hasan Piker there. He's as you mentioned , you know , he's become such an influential voice , particularly of the left. I think he's even getting more attention in the mainstream media now since the midterms even. You recently wrote a story about him and actually like the people behind his content. What did you learn?
S3: Um , yeah. I mean , I learned a lot of really interesting things about that , just in terms of what it takes to be that kind of creator , because you've got to bear in mind , like , Hasan is , um , not working entirely alone , but his team is relatively small , and he is broadcasting and recapping and analyzing news for like between 6 and 10 hours every single day , in addition to all his other obligations in addition to travel and , you know , uh , interviewing various guests and , like , doing all these different things now , endorsing candidates , being part of their campaigns. Um , so it is a , like , fuller than full time job. And the people behind the scenes are also working overtime to make sure that he maintains the schedule and ends up where he needs to. Um , and then the other big thing was just learning about , like , all the security concerns that they now have in a kind of post Charlie Kirk era. Um , the fact that if they go anywhere , they've got to obtain , like , blueprints to the building , they've got to , like , work with security to make sure that they know where they are entering and exiting. Um , just to be as safe as possible. And , well , so far , nothing has happened. You know , that's kind of by design. Um , there was still a lot of contention around an appearance that he did recently at UT Austin. Um , because people online were making not even really veiled threats like they were saying , oh , yeah , there's this tower over here where a shooting happened in the past. Maybe that's like the best place to watch this talk from. It's like , oh , okay. So , you know , you got to be as safe as possible.
S1: And , you know , concerns over safety and live streaming I don't know , they've seemed to , to be , you know , um , part in an issue for , for quite a long time. And we can talk about some of the other ways like , you know , swatting in problems there with with live streamers. But , you know , talking about TwitchCon specifically , I think one of the main headlines from last year's convention was all around safety. Right. Talk about , you know , can you remind us kind of what , you know , what happened last year? And then I don't know if you've heard how organizers are looking to approach , you know , fixing things this year. Yeah.
S3: Yeah. So last year , one of the biggest incidents was that there was a streamer using a meet and greet. And , uh , one of her fans , I guess , you know , an anti fan or whatever you would want to call them , um , made a grab at her like lunged at her basically , and like , was quickly pulled away , um , but still was allowed to get close enough for that to even occur. Um , which was really alarming for a lot of people. And I think , again , reminded everyone that , like , streamers are not just regular people much as they often try to portray themselves as such , um , they are famous and they do have some fans who are willing to , you know , do things that most of us would disapprove of. To get close to them. And so then the question became , all right. How do you maintain what TwitchCon is , which is this gathering of a lot of people with these big fandoms and communities , um , while also protecting them and while also making sure that that kind of thing can't happen again. And in the aftermath , Twitch did say that , like they were going to , you know , take greater precautions next time around. But I think that that already made a lot of streamers wary enough that I'm not sure what the attendance is going to be like this year. I think a lot of them are look at something like TwitchCon and look at the potential risks involved , and they say it's just not worth the trouble. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. Um , you know , in your book , uh , stream big , one thing you write about is just like the mythology around what the life of a content creator or streamer is like. A lot of people , you know , have these visions of how much money they make or just the lifestyle , but you kind of say that I don't know that the reality is quite different. Mhm.
S3: Mhm. Yeah. Well I mean the first thing that you have to keep in mind is that whether it's a streamer or a YouTuber or a TikTok or whatever else , a vanishingly small percentage of people in those fields make like even minimum wage , um , off of what they're creating. Most people are doing it functionally for free. And then the top , like 0.1% or 0.01% , um , does make good money. And then you hit that echelon where , you know , you could be talking to somebody who is like a millionaire and making a ton of money. Um , but most people just don't. And then beyond that , um , you know , it's still a job. Like , I think a lot of people would see a streamer and say , oh , they're just in front of a camera all day. They're like in their bedroom or they're in their home. They don't have to commute. Um , but they still do have to be on for , you know , again , depending on the streamer , 6 to 10 to even more hours than that per day , just like constantly entertaining an audience. And if you try to port that to , you know , more traditional mediums like say , you're say you have a physical audience of , you know , 10,000 people that you're trying to keep entertained for eight hours. Like , that sounds insanely stressful. Um , obviously this is a little bit different , but it's still like , you know , you have to be the most over-the-top animated version of yourself for a long time. That's exhausting. And then on top of that , you have a community that you're managing. Potentially. You're responding to emails , you're cutting deals , you're doing all this stuff behind the scenes. And so a lot of streamers , especially the ones at the top , never stop working. They wake up , they start , and then eventually they go to bed and it repeats the next day.
S1: And one topic that you cover , you know , in , you know , a lot of your reporting , but also the book is is just how mental health plays into the story of not only the lives of creators , but also the fans. And I think a lot of what you point to is just this unique relationship going back to that celebrity piece , right? Like , um , the , the relationship a lot of fans feel that they have with these streamers , the ability to chat with them. Um. Why do you think this. You know , mental health is. I don't seem concerns around it seem to be so prevalent in the streaming space.
S3: Um , well , I mean , I think that , for one , you know , a lot of people , um , view streamers as a kind of , like , social outlet for themselves , or rather , being part of that community is where they do a lot of their socializing. And so , especially when you are watching somebody for that long per day , is if you're like a mega fan , because a lot of people just pop in and out of streams , you know , watch somebody for an hour or two or something. Mhm. Um , but it can start to feel like you actually know them because you are hearing them say so many things and you're seeing so many moments of their lives and it's like , oh yeah , I know this and that. All these intimate details about them that oftentimes you wouldn't even know about like a friend. And so , you know , our , our brains for all that they can do are not that sophisticated. And so something in there goes like , that's a friend. That's my friend. Um , and so like that can , you know , obviously be detrimental because it's very one way. That's what we call like a parasocial relationship , where one person is like , that is a friend of mine , and another person's like , I don't even know you. Um , because of course , it's impossible for a streamer to know everyone in their community if their community is comprised of tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or even millions of people. Um , and then the flip side of it is that , you know , for streamers , the job is a lot of work. And like I was saying earlier , if you're working all the time , you eventually burn out. A lot of streamers have a lot of streamers have reached the top of the game and become some of the most popular , and then either faded or just disappeared entirely , because it's not really the kind of thing that I think a person is made to continually do. Only a select handful like reach the top and stay there.
S1: Um , you know , we have about a minute left here and just kind of putting the focus back on Twitch for a minute. Live streaming has been around in some form or fashion since the , you know , since the 90s. Really , so many platforms have come and gone. What do you think has made Twitch , you know , stay so relevant to today?
S3: I mean , I think a lot of it and I will say that this is broadly in spite of the the company. Twitch has become an Amazon owning Twitch. So I think that Twitch as a platform has been severely mishandled pretty much since Amazon bought it. Um , but in spite of that , the big thing I would say is the community that resides on Twitch. Um , when Twitch first started out , it was a very community oriented platform. So they had like Twitch employees being hired from the community surrounding Twitch. They had people going to conventions all the time , asking streamers what they wanted. Interfacing with them very directly. And I think that that created this kind of cohesion between a lot of streamers and attachment to the platform that persists to this day , even though the platform itself is pretty severely degraded , is , like now , laden with AI that people are very suspicious of. Um , has not really produced any like , revolutionary features , and God only knows how long. Um , but there's still something there. And then the other practical side of it is that Twitch still remains one of the platforms that it is easiest to monetize yourself on. Um , it's really hard to make money on TikTok. It's really hard to make money on YouTube. Twitch has more tools for it.
S1: We'll have to leave it there. Nathan Grayson is the author of Stream Big and a tech reporter and founder of the online news site aftermath. We'll include links to his reporting , as well as to KPBS reporting on TwitchCon happening this weekend. Nathan , thanks so much for being here.
S3: Yeah , thank you for having me.
S1: And round tables back right after the break. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. The KPBS podcast , The Finest tells the stories of people , art and movements defining San Diego. This season , the podcast has taken us everywhere , from a local guitar shop to a baseball game while working remotely , even a thrift store. For their latest episode , the finest team visited a weekly art class inside Donovan State Prison , and that's where they met people like Travis Carter , aka juice , who shared what art has meant to him.
S4: To help keep me alive in a time when I definitely. I could have gone either way. Yeah , and Art man. I mean , it's powerful.
S1: Joining me now is Julia Dixon Evans , host of the Finest podcast , along with Anthony Wallace , who produces it. Julia Anthony , welcome back to roundtable.
S5: Hey , Andrew. Thanks for having us.
S1: Great to see you and have you both on again , Julia. This latest episode dives into an arts program happening within the Donovan's , you know , correctional facility. Correctional facility. And I know this is something you've been interested in in covering for a while. Why did you want to tell this particular story for the season's finale?
S5: I think the idea of an art class inside of the American justice system is so fascinating. And I mean , the way that the story came to me is , um. It was like we had no choice but to cover it. Like I was talking to. I met one of the instructors at an event , and he was telling me what he does for work , and I just sort of asked offhand , why do you do this work? Like , why do you end up there? And he said , well , I was tried as an adult when I was a teenager. So yeah , that's why I do this work. And so yeah , we talked about it and we're like , this is incredible. Like to talk about the power of art and creativity in a place that is often so dark and so , like , devoid of hope.
S1: Anthony , what were your impressions? You know , of what it was like inside the prison? I mean , do you kind of document some of it in the episode in a really interesting way , like how you kind of have to list out each all the equipment you're bringing in. But tell us.
S6: It was an interesting experience. Yeah. I mean , this episode came together. I mean , they come together in different ways. This one , as Julia mentioned. She kind of found the story and I kind of went in a little blind. I didn't quite know what to expect. It was the first time I had been into a prison. So like you said , it was it was kind of an intense process. We got a lot of directions from them before we showed up. We had to tell them exactly what we were bringing , like , all our equipment , and then they had to , like , inspect it.
S5: Like number of batteries.
S6: Yeah , it's actually worse for the people putting on the art class because they had like a hundred colored pencils and they had to count every single one.
S1: Yeah , yeah. And it kind of. You have pieces of that in the episode. It's really interesting. Julia , another kind of important theme that comes through in this episode is just , I don't know , some of the obstacles they face toward making art while in prison and just that constant reality of like , how limited the resources are there. Here's a little of of juice again , who we heard earlier.
S4: I need the supplies. I'm not going to lie , I do. I wait until everyone leaves and I scrape their paint off and put it in here like it's. It's like that. Like I'm like Oscar the Grouch , right? Like second hand paint. So I'm reduced to that. But that's okay. I got to do that.
S1: I mean , Julia , how did hearing about those challenges , I don't know , affect how you look upon what it takes to make art?
S5: I mean , it was interesting because it's not something that I ever considered like , this is only something that a lot of these students can do in the two hours a week , three hours a week that they're able to be in that classroom with the instructors. And some of the people we talk to had been in this facility for decades , over half their life , and they remember a time when they could have access to supplies and more materials , but kind of like system wide prisons have been reducing the ability of people to procure their own art supplies , buy them , order handicraft items and bring them back to their cells so that they can work on their art , or use it as like a healing coping mechanism on their own whenever they want to. And I mean , it was pretty shocking to realize that they can only work on it for such a short period of time , and the system is what is limiting them in being able to make art whenever they want.
S1: What did you learn about just the impact prison art programs like Project Paint that you document here , or actually having in Americans prisons , America's prisons?
S5: I mean , overall , like it is linked to lower recidivism rate. And a big part of that is how they almost it's like a gateway program for other educational programs like college classes , college degree programs. Um , oftentimes people will enroll in these paint painting classes and it like , they enjoy it , they get really good at it and it leads them into like wanting more and wanting more structure , but ultimately like the thing. I mean , I was searching through the transcripts , like all the tape we got that day for words like , like the things that we kept hearing over and over again. Like it saved my life. And like countless times we were told that just like the act of doing it , like it's not necessarily something that you can measure in recidivism rates. But if so many people said that it absolutely transformed their life.
S1: Anthony , there's you know , I think you have , what , 30 episodes , season two or whatever over the past year or so? Yeah. Um , there's so many we could talk about here. And I just want to kind of touch on a couple. One of those , though , is , is your interview with Physics Girl. It's Diana Cowan. Um , that one really seemed , I don't know , just to resonate with a lot of folks. And this is something that you have a personal connection to the story as well?
S6: That's right. Yeah , that was an important one for me. I mean , chronic illness is something that I've dealt with for like , almost like I think most of my life at this point , and I don't have long Covid , but I have something chronic Lyme disease that's actually very similar to long Covid in some interesting ways. And what we talked about with physics girl Diana Cowan is just how much of a mystery these kind of illnesses are. Like scientists and the medical community really does not understand them and doesn't know how to treat them. And I think for a lot of people , that's I mean , for me it's it's kind of shocking. You know , you kind of think doctors have figured out most things , but.
S1: The doctors have the answers , right? Yeah.
S6: Yeah. Yeah. And they really don't when it comes to this.
S1: Well , and let's listen to a little bit of what Diana told you on this. Here's , here's a clip.
S5: I would visit.
S7: This , like , fantasy magical island. And I had these characters and I would go there and I would visit that a lot because I was lying in bed for 24 hours a day with my eyes closed , and the only time I opened them was to eat or like to check my watch. I couldn't use my phone , but sometimes I was not well enough and I didn't have enough brain power to even go there. So that was like a good day. Was getting to go visit my my island in my mind.
S1: Julia , what stands out to you about that episode?
S5: I mean , just how hopeless it seemed in the , you know , in these crashes that she continues to have , you know , as she's recovering , as she's trying to find treatments that work , she's still having crashes. She's still like becoming , um , you know , unable to open her eyes or like , do work. And I think for me , like , right after she told us that story , I just , I wanted to know , like , what was she able to think like what was thinking , like , for her? Someone who has become like this internet sensation for having a bright mind. Being so smart and savvy and engaging and like , suddenly unable to even like imagine a desert island I thought was so striking.
S1: You know , we often talk about just the breadth of what you all cover on the finest and just arts and culture pieces.
S5: Heavily on the and culture.
S1: In another episode I want to touch on is one inside a thrift store that sells items from seniors who've downsized , and that's only kind of a piece of what they do. But one of the characters you introduce us to is Rose , the shopkeeper. Tell us more about her.
S6: Yeah , she has a really interesting business. Um , she came at it in a very unconventional way , but she just kind of found this niche in helping older people , of which there are many , um , who need to downsize , who need to sell their large home and get a smaller one. And when that happens , they have a whole bunch of stuff that they need to get rid of. And so she has a store where she sells that stuff. Um , and on consignment. So she helps the people that , you know , used to own it. And then what's really special about her store is that she'll often tell the stories of the people who , you know , previously own these items. So we talked to a person who a young person who went in there and bought something and then found out all this , all these details about the person's life who used to own the thing. And so it was this , like very enriching experience for , for her to buy that. And so , yeah , there's just a lot of great , great stories like that and a lot of interesting stuff also about just how America sees aging , which is is unique and negative. You know , Americans have never had a great , uh , you know , view towards.
S1: Relationship with the aging process. Yeah. Um , Julia , you know , we kind of touched on this , but we've had you on before talking about this podcast and how you define what art and culture in San Diego is and what it's like. Um , you know , I don't know. I'm just curious , reflecting on now that you guys have , what , like 50 some episodes. Um , how do you see San Diego art and culture today differently than you did when you started? Hmm.
S5: Hmm. That's a great question. I think that I , I see San Diego art culture definitely more broadly. Um , and I probably would have answered that way , like a month into it , too. Um , but it's just like continuing to evolve , you know , thinking about art and culture being , um , storytelling , being people , communities. And , um , like , the culture is where people gather is where people have shared interests. And yeah , I don't know , I think we have found a lot of like , uh , themes or motifs in our coverage , and some of them are like analogue hobbies and like people trying to find ways to connect with each other outside of digital culture , outside of like screens , outside of technology , and whether that is , um , musicians that are , that are performing , like writing their own songs and performing organically , or whether it's , um , like people printing on this , like antiquated printing method or like getting together and learning how to play mahjong , all of those things , like the connectivity and the way that people come together is it's always like how my view of San Diego art and culture is totally. Anthony.
S1: Anthony. That kind of reminds me of another episode , um , the Costco club , the UC San Diego's Costco club. Uh , the students in this club are pretty passionate about the Costco.
S6: They love. Costco.
S1: Costco. And we actually have a clip. This is the president , Jacob Jacob Hwang , who has a Costco tattoo.
S8: Like people think I was crazy for getting a tattoo. My best friends were like , Jacob. Like , this might be the dumbest idea you've ever had , but I doubled down because this was by far , like probably the best investment I've ever had.
S1: So , I mean , it's kind of going off what Julia said , you know , how do you see this episode as an example of just like this evolving definition of arts and culture? Yeah.
S6: Yeah. I mean , on the topic of , you know , getting together , UCSD is sometimes known as UC socially dead. And so for these kids , going to Costco together is a way to work against that. And then also just the fact that , like we heard , you know , these people just love Costco. It really has like a special place in their hearts. And what we wanted to do with that episode is just try to understand why do people love a store , a business , a brand so much? And it was an interesting journey and I think we found some really interesting things that set Costco apart , which started in San Diego. Yeah.
S5: Yeah. And one of the things we really love about , like some of these stories is the history. Like history is culture too. You know , and Costco has pretty fascinating history in San Diego.
S1: Very interesting. I'm speaking with Julia Dixon Evans , host of The Finest Podcast , along with producer Anthony Wallace. Julia Anthony , thanks so much for for being here.
S9: Thank you Andy. Thank you.
S1: And you can listen to all episodes of The Finest at KPBS podcasts or wherever you listen. And for those waiting on new episodes , you won't have to wait too long. We got a new season kicking off in January. Right. And that'll do it for this week's roundtable. Thanks so much for listening. Roundtables. Technical producers Brandon Truffaut. The show is produced by Ashley Rush. Kayla Pagano is newsroom production assistant. Brooke Ruth is roundtable senior producer. I'm your host , Andrew Bracken. Thanks again. Have a great weekend.
