S1: Hey there , San Diego , it's time for KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. The ice arrest of a San Diego City College student this week leads to community anger and protest. Meanwhile , a recent change in immigration policy has created a wave of fear in San Diego's Haitian community.
S2: Mothers are afraid to drop their kids at school. Parents cannot leave their house to get basic necessities for their American children.
S1: Then , 25 years ago today , America and the world was changed. We talk about how nine over 11 transformed our military and approach to border security , plus how the nine over 11 era led to a rise in Islamophobia in the US. It's all coming up on KPBS roundtable. Earlier this week , immigration agents arrested a student near San Diego City College at the corner of 16th and C streets. They chased another student onto campus. Both are Haitian immigrants. Many City College students are outraged over Ice enforcement so close to campus. They organized a rally on Wednesday afternoon , and yesterday , members of the local Haitian community held a protest downtown. Joining me to talk more about this week's events are. Two KPBS reporters have been covering it on the ground Alexander Winn and Jacob Eyre. Welcome to you both.
S3: Yeah , thanks for having us. Yeah. Thanks for having us here , Alex.
S1: Andrew , thank you for being here. So , Alex , I want to start with you. Can you give us a recap of what happened on Tuesday? What do we know about this interaction between Ice agents and these two city College students?
S4: So according to the students and and. Ice.
S3: Ice.
S4: What happened is that they pulled the students over at the corner of 16th and C , which is , I mean , technically off campus , but it's literally surrounded by campus. And the driver was arrested and the passenger ran onto campus and they were protected by one of the staff members. So that's the long and short of it.
S1: They were not. So the second student was not arrested or picked up? Nope. Okay. And you were there at the rally then on Wednesday , this was organized by city council , city College students. Tell us about the atmosphere there.
S4: Well , like you say , they were outraged. Students say they had warned the administration that something like this could happen. Since the Trump administration's push on deportation that started last year , and they said that the administration didn't seem to take their concerns seriously. And you can hear that from this student , Gray Fairley , who is one of the organizers of the protest.
S5: There are a lot of people who are genuinely scared. We saw that all through kind of last semester where attendance went down a little bit. People didn't feel safe. So for that threat to actually happen , There are people who are definitely scared.
S1: I imagine that was. Were there other student voices you heard basically kind of , you know , like kind of like saying what great Grace gray was expressing here.
S4: Yeah , I mean , scared. And some students say , told me that they have friends who are not attending classes right after the incident because they are afraid that something like this would happen. And they say some students are talking to their counselor or thinking of enrolling or , you know , dropping out of college because something like this happen and they are scared.
S1: So some big impacts there. Um , what about college administrators? How have they responded to this action?
S4: Well , they say that they are , you know , working with the students and they have a conference on this on the 15th to go over some of the training. And , you know , they've had this kind of training on campus before to response to AIS. And they actually have a sheet of what to do. For example , they tell administrators or teachers that do not let Ice on into the classroom. If you see them close the door , tell them they narrow a welcome there , things like that. But I guess this is more of a secondary training. And again , you know , students had warned that something like this could happen. So I guess the college is now taking that more seriously. Hmm.
S1: Hmm. Can you tell us more about what the actual law says about Ice enforcement on campus and what's what's allowed?
S4: Well , uh , so for Ice and other California law , the campus police and college district employees are not allowed to participate in or assist with or coordinate with Ice enforcement activities. And I want to , uh , I want to emphasize that because some students tell me that they saw campus police interacting with Ice , contrary to what has been released , saying that , you know , they left campus as soon as campus police arrived , but they say they saw them interacting with with Ice agents and they also saw them directing traffic. Obviously , we don't know what was said to the Ice agents and stuff like that. And we have a teacher who actually did see that and they say , yeah , the administration is looking into this. Interesting.
S1: Interesting. Um , Alex , you also reached out to federal immigration officials to get their perspective. What did they tell you?
S4: Well , initially , they say that the student was not a student at City College. And then they walked that statement back and they said that he entered the US illegally in May 2023 through El Paso , Texas , and was released by the Biden administration. But , you know , I just want to emphasize we had a program called the Temporary Protected Status , which allows , uh , people in certain countries to stay and work in the United States because the conditions in their home country was not safe for them to return. We don't know specifically if that's the case in this , uh , you know , this situation , right? So but they say that his claims would be heard and the judge will , uh , then he will receive his due process. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And I want to talk more about that TPS. Um , Jacob , I want to bring you in here. You focused your reporting on the impact this has had on San Diego's Haitian community. This is a community you've you've covered quite a bit in your time here. And you attended a protest yesterday. What was the tone like there? Right.
S3: Right. I mean , Alex had mentioned outrage at the city campus. I think there was some of that , but really there was a lot of kind of fear and intimidation happening within this Haitian community. Um , you know , there was only a dozen or so actual Haitian community members there. And I think that's largely what I was told was a reflection of just that fear. They were a lot of the folks in the , in the Haitian community were worried that if they showed up , um , they could potentially be arrested on the spot by ice. You know , there was also a few other dozen community members there to support them. So we're talking a crowd a little bit less than 50 overall. But this the sentiment of fear and then also frustration and outrage. Those were kind of big emotions. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. I mean , it makes sense that it wasn't a large crowd there in that context. Right. Earlier Alex mentioned TPS. That's temporary protected status. Um , that ended in July. The Trump administration ended that um , for an impacts Haitians and Syrian immigrants. Can you explain the significance of that and how that plays into what's been happening this week? Right.
S3: Right. So with the end of TPS and this goes back to a Supreme Court decision , uh , in June , and then the TPS rollback actually happened in late July. So it's been a little bit over a month now , uh , where temporary protected status no longer stands for folks from Haiti as well as Syria , as you had mentioned. And just to put this in context , Alex had talked a little bit about the status of Haiti. You know , this country is still under a level for do not travel advisory from the State Department due to risk of crime , kidnapping , terrorism , unrest and limited health care. It's actually been under a national state of emergency since March 2024. So with TPS ending , we've seen this ramp up of enforcement , not just here in San Diego , but really across the US specifically , according to community members and others targeting the Haitian community since TPS has been rolled back. And then I just do want to note that while Temporary Protected status does encompass a good amount of of the Haitian community , it's not everyone. So the Haitian Bridge Alliance who kind of helped put this together yesterday , they said that there's about 20 to 25,000 Haitians across the county , according to their estimates. And about 7 to 9000 of those individuals were here in San Diego County , either under TPS or they're affected by TPS ending. So it's a little bit less than half , but it's still a significant amount.
S1: But a big number , right. So , you know , can you talk a little bit more about how losing TPS is impacting our local Haitian community here in San Diego? Yeah.
S3: Yeah. From the people I spoke to yesterday Again. Uh , terror. They're afraid. Um , some people had used the word even hunted. They feel hunted at the moment. Um , a lot of people are no longer leaving their homes. I even spoke to a mother of three who was there with her just over three week old newborn son. She told me that her husband was arrested two weeks ago in City Heights , and she really hasn't felt like she can leave her space now to even take care of her family. Since then , uh , I also spoke in particular to Mr. Gayton. He's the founder , the co-founder of the Haitian Bridge Alliance , which I brought up earlier. It's a nonprofit that advocates for fair and humane immigration policies for those who need it. Here's what he had to say about the situation.
S2: Mothers are afraid to drop their kid at school. Um , children cannot go to school. Parents cannot leave their house to get basic necessities for their American children.
S1: So , I mean , yeah , really just kind of bringing home that fear that you've been talking about. Um , Jacob , you also spoke with an immigration attorney kind of about the intricacies here and TPS and kind of all that's going on in the Haitian community. What did he have to say specifically about immigration law and what he's. Yeah , what he's doing. Right.
S3: Right. So the attorney I spoke to , he was there during the rally. His name is was Mike Saint-Jean. He actually happens to be Haitian himself. Um , he says he often represents Haitians in communities like this when they're arrested or detained by Ice. Uh , the big takeaway , I think , from the interview that I have with him is that the way he sees it is that these arrests are unconstitutional and illegal. He told me that when someone has asylum pending , they cannot be deported until there's a final decision being made on their asylum cases by a judge. So he says he's actually used this argument to successfully get the release of some here in the Haitian community. So I think that's going to be something to kind of monitor going forward , how this actually plays out during court proceedings. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. So this I mean a lot has been going on this week. There's a lot happening. You just you know and kind of getting updates right before this interview. You know I just want to end in the time we have about two minutes left. You know what you're going to be looking at next and what questions you have going forward. Jacob. Right.
S3: Right. Um , so I think there's a couple things here. I think it's important to follow how these ices continue to impact impact the Haitian community here in San Diego and then beyond across the US. I was told with those from Haitian Bridge Alliance that there was actually just a pair of parents , uh , earlier this week as well , that were arrested outside of an elementary school in City Heights. Uh , you know , folks in the Haitian community saying this is happening very frequently , frequently. Now , these , these arrests from Ice. So when these cases do go to court , as I mentioned earlier , I think seeing how they play out along the lines of what attorney , uh , Saint-Jean was saying. And then in a broader sense , I think the Haitian community is just looking for greater awareness and community support on a whole. That update that you were talking about? Yes. Right before I came in here , San Diego City College just confirmed to me that they're actually going to be covering the legal costs for Renato Cassius , the student who was arrested. They're going to be covering his , uh , lawyers costs. Um , as his case progresses. And I know Alex has a bit more on that , too. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. And actually , I would be interested in seeing the outcome of the investigation regarding the campus police and what their involvement was. I know a lot of the students and faculty were frustrated by what they saw , and obviously , we don't know the full details of the conversation between the campus police and Ice. So I want to give campus police the benefit of the doubt , but I'm really interested in seeing what the , you know , the campus has to say about that interaction. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. So a lot a lot more questions there. Well , I want to thank each of you. I know it's been a busy week and , um , we appreciate you kind of catching us up to speed on all that's been happening this week. I've been speaking with KPBS reporters Jacob Iyer and Alexander Nguyen. Jacob. Alex , thanks again.
S3: Thanks for having us. Yep.
S1: Coming up , how nine over 11 changed life in the military and our borders. This is KPBS roundtable. Stay tuned. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. Many of us remember exactly where we were and what we were doing on September 11th , 2001. It's a day that has been etched into our memory. But it wasn't just a turning point in our lives. It was also an important one for our country , our military and our borders. A new KPBS series reflects on that moment and the changes it led to. I'm joined now by the reporters behind that series , Gustavo Solis. He's KPBS investigative border reporter and Andrew Dyer. Also here he is , military and veterans affairs reporter here at KPBS. And I want to welcome you both back to the roundtable. Hello. So just to start off , you know , I mentioned there just kind of the moment I remember where I was on nine over 11 , but I'm wondering , um , yeah. What you remember from that day , Andrew.
S6: Oh , well , I was , uh , at the time I worked at H-e-b , a grocery store in San Antonio , Texas , and I was getting ready for my shift , and I went to turn on the radio to listen to the obnoxious sports show that I was a fan of at the time. And it wasn't on. And instead they were talking about , um , this this airplane hitting the building. So , uh , that was a strange shift at the store , to say the least. Um , everybody was kind of going by it , going on with things as though it was normal. And then you'd walk into the break room and everybody's just staring at the TV. You know , it was very , very surreal.
S1: And that eventually kind of led you to ultimately , ultimately where you are now. Right. I mean , it kind of. Yeah.
S6: Yeah. Um , for sure , because two weeks later I went and talked to the recruiter and , you know , started the process to go to , to boot camp. And I was in boot camp by December. Oh , wow.
S7: Was that a motivation? Yeah.
S6: Yeah. Well.
S7: Well.
S1: Gustavo , your story is a little different because I think you were not quite working. 18. Yeah.
S7: Yeah. Yeah. Uh , yeah , I was 13. I remember being in school. Um , actually , before school , we would get up early and we were watching the the news before we go , and my mom was really apprehensive. Should we even go to school? Should we not go to school? At the time I was living in Chula Vista , but going to school in Coronado. And there was this vague fear , right? The uncertainty. We didn't know what it was. It was just chaos. And I remember my mom had this fear that , you know , we shouldn't be in Coronado , because that's where the military base is , and it could be a target. What if they attacked the Coronado Bridge and , you know , cut it off like that kind of thing? So. So I remember driving over the bridge , and then she didn't want me at school. So she pulled me from school , and we went down the strand to go back home because she wanted to just avoid that area. I remember at the time thinking it was kind of silly , like , we're overreacting , but I just didn't understand the gravity of the situation.
S1: Well , I mean , yeah , so much uncertainty at that time. Yeah , definitely. We all kind of go back there. Those of us can remember. But just use that as an example , kind of an entry point to this series. And Gustavo , I'm wondering if you can tell us more about. I mean , you mentioned your mother's fears about , like , being so close to the military. Obviously , in San Diego , the military , you know , community plays such an important role here. And also our relationship with the border. So , you know , tell us about what questions you were looking to answer in this series , Gustavo. Yeah.
S7: Yeah. So this series I kind of in my mind is the before and after series , right. What was border and immigration like before nine over 11 , and what is it now after nine over 11? And actually , we were having a conversation about it months ago in the newsroom. Um , and I just casually dropped the fact that , you know what , we don't get ice without 911. And there are I'm 38. There are some people in the newsroom that are born in after 2001. And they were like , wait a minute. There was there was a before ice. And that's kind of what I wanted to speak to that a little bit. Right. What did immigration enforcement look like and feel like before we have this agency? And what was it about what happened in nine over 11 that changed the entire focus of how we view immigration like what it is , what it isn't , and how we approach it. So that's kind of what I wanted to tackle.
S1: Can you paint a little of the picture of what the San Diego Tijuana border was like before nine over 11? I mean , you mentioned this was before Ice. The agencies were different , but yeah.
S7: Yeah , of course , I mean , the agencies were totally different , but but even just the I mean , you could cross so much easier now. Right. A lot of it has to do with time. Just the physical infrastructure , the body recognition , face recognition cameras were not there. The two walls with the barbed wire fences were not there.
S1: There weren't there was a wall at this time , but it was different. Yeah.
S7: Yeah. There was. The first wall was like Operation Gatekeeper in the mid 90s. That was like a Clinton era one. And it kind of is a good symbolism of the link between the military and the border. Right. That wall was made from scrap parts from the Vietnam War era. Um , so there was an infrastructure there. There was an emphasis on security there. Like , I remember being a little kid and being a little bit nervous whenever I crossed the border because there were big , tough guards , but everything was like a bit analog , like , I remember having a visa , and it was this physical piece of paper that we had to , like , guard with our life because there were no digital copies. There was no like sentry that we could use at that time or it wasn't available to us. Um , it was just very old school.
S1: And , you know , at that time , as we mentioned , the , you know , federal agency in charge of our borders and immigration was different. It doesn't no longer exists. The Immigration and Naturalization Service. INS. Right. Yeah.
S7: Yeah. INS was this agency that was housed within the Department of Justice. Uh , there was no DHS as we know it now. Right.
S1: The Department of Homeland Security came after. Exactly.
S7: Yeah , exactly. And ins and ice. I mean like its the predecessor , but if you compare them side by side now it's apples and oranges. I mean , this agency um , was was a bit of an afterthought to the average American. I actually got a chance for this series to talk to a law professor who's spent a couple of decades now studying our immigration system , our criminal justice system , seeing how they interact , but really understanding the history of of kind of how he came to be. His name is CΓ©sar Hernandez. He's a professor of law at Ohio State University. And here's.
S1: Cesar Garcia. Right.
S7: Right. Sorry. Yeah. Says Garcia.
S8: I would say that the public perception of the INS was , um. No , uh , it was it was nonexistent for the vast majority of people in the United States. Yeah.
S7: Yeah. Compare that to Ice today. I don't think anyone would call the public perception of ice to be null or nonexistent. Right. It's top of mind right now , especially during this administration. So it kind of shows how in the last 25 years , just how the government thinks about immigration and how we think about immigration has totally changed.
S1: And , Andrew , for the military at that time , again , we're in this sort of like pre nine over 11 moment. You say nine over 11 took place after what had been a relatively kind of calm era with limited combat. Sure.
S6: Sure. You know , I mean , obviously coming out of Vietnam , Vietnam was a very bloody conflict and a very unpopular draft. Um , well , you know , in 1973 , they ended the draft , and we've been an all volunteer military ever since. There was , you know , some downsizing in the 70s. And , um , unless you were part of , like , uh , like some kind of special operations unit , um , there wasn't a whole lot of on the ground combat. You know , um , there was , you know , the invasion of Grenada. Uh , there was , uh , we were in Panama for a little bit.
S1: Very like short term actions. Right.
S6: And it wasn't until Desert Shield , Desert Storm that , uh , you know , we had an actual war. Um , but even that was a very short conflict. And , um , yeah , there was the , uh , operations , like in Somalia , obviously. Um , but there wasn't a whole lot of , uh , prolonged exposure to combat , prolonged , um , accounting of of casualties and everything like that. So , um , you could go , you know , you could spend a 20 year career in the military and never , never see combat. Never , never take place or never participate in a real world like kinetic operation. Um , which after nine over 11 wasn't the case. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. So , Gustavo. Now , that brings us to September 11th , 2001. What happens soon after at our borders?
S7: It was interesting to me to hear from folks who were on the ground like for this series. We talked to to the the acting port director in San Ysidro that day , and the supervisor , inspector , supervisor , she supervisor , people in the booths. And there was just this feeling of fear , anxiety and a little bit of guilt because like , this happened on our watch , right? For a good 5 or 6 month period , two of the 911 hijackers were living in Claremont , and then they crossed that border that they were working at. And it was this hypervigilance , um , you know , even today , there's always this balance when you're looking at the border. Right? We have to balance being safe with keeping it moving along. Right. We can't keep get the wait lines. But after nine over 11 , for those good three months , they had this policy of stop every car open every trunk , right. It took forever to cross. But that's kind of that was the mentality and that idea that that fear , anxiety , a little bit of guilt was felt throughout the federal government and that kind of created , you know , helped create this vision for DHS , the Department of Homeland Security. The very name implies some kind of threat and connects that threat to immigration. So that was the fundamental shift in immigration became a threat that needs to be managed in a way that it wasn't before. Um , and , uh , Garcia , that the professor I talked to explained it in a way like , like this used to be housed in the Department of Justice. Before then , it used to be housed in commerce , setting up this separate agency that is a law enforcement agency tasked and led by law enforcement professionals , means that your entire view of immigration is going to come through a law enforcement view. And a lot of the solutions to the problems you face are going to be law enforcement problem or I'm sorry. Law enforcement solutions. And that mentality alone has guided a lot of the policy decisions that we see today. So there's you can point a direct line between the aggressive enforcement we're seeing today and the decisions that were made post 911 , especially if you count the hundreds of billions in funding that this agency has gotten over the years as well.
S1: Andrew , you touched on this earlier , how , you know , maybe your expectation of joining the military before nine over 11 was quite different from what happened afterwards. You may never see combat. Obviously , that relative calm you spoke about ended soon after the attacks. Right.
S6: Right. And I think nobody was surprised. You know , whenever , whenever I joined the Navy , like the idea was that you're going to do something like we're going to do something. We didn't know that exactly what was going to happen , but something was going to happen like that was very clear from very early on. And , um. People like my age at the time , like a lot of the people that came into the service when I did , like , wanted to be part of that. Right. And , um , you know , uh , operations in Afghanistan were fairly limited in the early stages of that , uh , that conflict. It didn't get really bad over there until later. Um , but in 2003 , with the invasion of Iraq , is when that real ground war long , uh , kind of conflict started. And you could expect to , at least in the Navy , be on a , on a ship that maybe you go a couple times to the Middle East for operations , maybe you go to shore duty and then you go back to sea duty , and now you're going back to the Middle East for more operations , like you could rely on , you know , spending time in the pond over there , the Persian Gulf. Um , if you're on a especially in a West Coast carrier.
S1: So , like , more deployments , longer deployments.
S6: You know , I don't know the number because you would deploy , you know , pre nine over 11 , there was always carrier deployments. We maintained this global presence that the Navy does. Um , and you know the Marines deploy with their with the expeditionary unit to , you know , maintain their proficiency and be ready if combat starts. Um , what changed after nine over 11 was that these weren't just training , you know , deployments. These were deployments where you were going into to do what you trained to do. Mhm.
S1: Mhm. And many who served , you know , came from places like Camp Pendleton came in and around San Diego as well. Yes.
S6: Yes. So Camp Pendleton is home of one Marine Expeditionary Force. This is about a quarter of the Marine Corps. Um , you have the air element with the air wing. You have the infantry with the first Marine Division. You have supply. Um , you have everything with with one MEF. And these units , um , rotated to Iraq multiple times , Afghanistan multiple times. And , um , if you had a career as a marine , especially an infantry marine , if you stay in for 20 years , you can expect to see combat , you know , multiple times over , over that career.
S1: You know , for this story that you did. Um , looking back at nine over 11 , you spoke with one long serving marine , Hector Rivera , about his multiple tours. But one thing that , you know , he talked about was you spoke about a memorial dedicated to Marines and sailors killed in in the global war on terror.
S9: Those names that you see in the world. They are not statistics only. They were sons and daughters. Fathers. They were somebody special to their families.
S1: So , you know , I'm just wondering if you can reflect on a little bit what the lasting impact from the global war on terror has been for our nation's military members and veterans?
S6: Well , I think that it depends on how you it kind of depends on how you look at things , because , um , you know , Sergeant Major Rivera , when I asked him about that , he said it made it better. It made the Marines better because we went into combat multiple times. We knew what we were doing. We got better and better at it as we went. And because you have these senior. um , people like him who have seen multiple combat tours. Now they are training , you know , younger Marines today , those younger Marines are benefiting from from that experience. Right. Um , and so that's how he looks at having a career deploying multiple times to combat. But there's there's other issues , um , obviously , that come along with that. Um , we have a large disabled veteran population , 1.5 million veterans who served in the world's New York and Afghanistan have some kind of service connected disability that is , you know , that's like half of the disabled veterans that the VA serves. Um , you know , there's been obviously issues with with mental health and suicide. Um , you know , these folks in special operations especially , you know , seals , these these people were put into not just these big formation combat ground operations , but , you know , really dangerous , really precarious , um , operations multiple times over the years. So , you know , it really did do it. It just changed what your military career would look like. So if you were in the military between 2000 and 2021 , like , I don't know if somebody that joins the military in 2021 , if they're going to look back at things in 2040 , you know , they're not going to look back on on , I think multiple combat tours. I don't know if if the country has an appetite for for that again.
S1: Well , you know , here we are 20 years on now from this milestone. And I want to take a look maybe to the next 25 years. Just , Andrew , like you were kind of thinking about Gustavo , what comes to mind for you when it comes to the future of our borders and immigration?
S7: Yeah , I think that's really tough to say. Um , right. When you look into the future , I do think we're at a pivotal moment now where , you know , we've been building this massive infrastructure of enforcement in the last 25 years. Right. We've DHS has just grown and grown and grown with the technology of surveillance. The number of people , especially with this $260 billion funding that was approved by Congress last year. But the unpopularity of the agency , I mean , you just had a segment here before us right about this Ice detention , but by City College , um , it's giving everyone a moment of pause and reflection. Right. Is this the way we want to go , especially after last year with what happened in Minneapolis to US citizens killed by federal agents? There are people , even former DHS officials , who are who are saying , you know , maybe that approach of linking immigration to terrorism threats is a little bit outdated. Um , and I think it is kind of interesting. We have this moment where we know what this looks like. Taken to an extreme , we're experiencing it right now and is the problem. The executive that's taking it to the extreme , or is the problem the way that this agency is built and laid out , that allows somebody to take it to an extreme. And I think that's a really interesting conversation we're having right now.
S6: You know , when you asked about the impact of 9/11 on the military , you know , the that is also impacted , uh , DHS and law enforcement in general. You know , we've seen since the drawdown of these wars all kinds of surplus military equipment acquired by police departments. Um , you now have an agency , DHS , that acted like an occupying force , like we did in Baghdad , in Minneapolis. So , um , it did change that , that mindset.
S1: We'll have to leave it there. I want to thank you both for being here , and you're listening to KPBS roundtable. We'll be back. Thanks.
S10: Thanks.
S1: Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. On September 11th , 2001 , Rosina Alley was a teenager growing up in California's San Joaquin Valley. Soon after the attacks , her father instructed her to hide her Muslim identity out of a concern for her safety. Now , 25 years later , Rosina , a journalist out with a new book that traces our country's long history with Islamophobia. It's called Seasons of Fury for families and the Rise of Islamophobia in America. Rosina , welcome to roundtable.
S11: Thank you so much for having me here.
S1: I'm wondering if you can start by just taking us back to that day , September 11th , 2001. What do you remember? Yeah.
S11: Yeah. So I was actually in I was a teenager and I was getting ready for school , and it was early in the morning , and all I remember was my parents just watching the news in the living room , looking completely petrified. and I had never seen them this shocked before , and I had never been to New York City , and I. I didn't really understand what had happened until later on that day. But it was until it wasn't until I got home that evening when my father sat me down and said , you know , if anyone asks , tell them that you're Hindu , don't tell them you're Muslim. And we were one of about 3 or 4 Muslim families in town. And the fear was palpable.
S1: And of course , we're having this conversation on the 25th anniversary of nine over 11. Reflecting back on that time. Now , what did the post 911 period mean for Muslim Americans?
S11: I think I didn't quite appreciate it until much later. You know , I , um , I remember actually going back to school a few weeks or even just a few days after nine over 11 , and one of my classmates actually asked the teacher if Muslims would be interned now and I. That was never a possibility to me until she said it. And it wasn't until I started reporting and researching that I realized how close that possibility had been , because one of the things that the government did was actually round up people , round up muslims , and started a registry of Muslims , and it really created a chilling effect. I mean , one of the big things that I kept hearing at home was the walls have ears , as in the government is probably listening. And I realized a lot of Muslim households across the country were saying the same thing. You know , don't don't talk about Osama bin laden at home. Don't talk about George W Bush , because someone might be listening.
S1: In the prologue of your book , Seasons of Fury , you write about this enduring legacy of nine over 11 for Muslim Americans. And I'm wondering if you could read a little bit of that. Read us a passage from that prologue. Yeah.
S11: Yeah. Thank you. Conversations about the post nine over 11 period tend to relegate the uncertainty that Muslims face to that was then , or it was a different time. But such demarcation is an illusion. There was no celebration to mark the end of the war on terror. No newspaper headline that declared the fight against Islamic fundamentalism over. There has also been little reckoning of what took place in the United States over the last several decades.
S1: I mean , there's so much in those words , you know , not only that , just lack of a defining end point that I think just resonates in a lot of ways. But you mentioned there this idea of of lack of reckoning. What would that reckoning look like for you? What would you like to see?
S11: I think first and foremost is actually a acknowledgment of the lives that had been completely destroyed in the years after nine over 11 , so many Muslim families were forced to leave the United States , or they voluntarily departed because they were so afraid , or they were deported , even though they had not been guilty of anything. And there really hasn't been , and I should say , a lot of people were actually put in jail for years without any charge. And there really hasn't been a nationwide apology for it , nor much recognition or narrative about it. Um , I think the second thing that I would love to see is actually an acknowledgement that Muslims were victims on nine over 112 , in the sense that this is our country. And we were also attacked. And one of the difficulties about this period is not having been able to grieve the way that the rest of the country did , because we were always put under this lens of suspicion. And even now , as we see Mayor Zoran Mamdani in New York , has been dealing with a lot of criticism for even wanting to attend the memorial ceremony. Right.
S1: Right. I think yeah , absolutely. Um , now , you know , on your book , I think this was something of a bit of a surprise to you is , is , you know , Islamophobia obviously did not begin with nine over 11. And your book kind of takes us far before that time. Why did you feel that was important to , you know , explore that history?
S11: Well , one of the defining features of Islamophobia has been that this consideration of Muslims as a national security threat. And I wanted to understand , when did we actually start thinking of Muslims with suspicion? And I realized as I dig in that it actually didn't start at nine over 11. But the government has been considering Muslim communities with an eye of suspicion for decades. Actually , they have been monitoring and surveilling them even since starting in the late 60s and early 70s. And I was quite shocked by this history.
S1: And your book , it follows four Muslim American families across several decades. What common threads connect their stories? Yeah.
S11: Yeah. One of the reasons I actually wanted to follow these four families was because I wanted to show one that there is such diversity among Muslim Americans. They are not diverse just in terms of race , but or ethnicity , but also in their political beliefs , in their political motivations , even in their religious beliefs , how spiritual they are , even in their party. Right. I have one character who is so progressive and so democratic , and another character who is very staunchly Republican and supported Bush's war against terror. And ultimately , the thing , the threat that combines all of them is that they were somehow all impacted by anti-Muslim sentiment in this country , and it manifested in different ways. You know , one was surveilled , another was entrapped and convicted. Another was terrorized by their neighbor for many , many years and another had his community turn against him.
S1: I'm wondering , you know , here on roundtable , we talk with reporters , we talk with storytellers. And I just wondering what role you feel the mainstream media journalism has played in the rise of anti-Muslim sentiment post nine over 11?
S11: Yeah , I have to say , you know , I'm I'm a journalist myself , and I have such deep respect for my colleagues , I really do. And certainly after nine over 11 , there was so much incredible coverage. But one of the things that media as a whole did was , you know , before nine over 11 , there were just we didn't know that much about Islam. A lot of Americans hardly knew any Muslim. They hardly knew about their religion. Even law enforcement and government officials didn't really know much about the religion. And so it seemed natural after nine over 11 to try to explain the religion. And so we had any like media outlets from the Guardian to MTV to CNN publishing explainers about Islam. But the problem with that was , was that we ended up emphasizing the religion rather than the political aspects of this war. Right? Because we were launching a war on terror , that enemy was so broadly defined that the media , rather than confine our conversations or analyses to al-Qaida , for example , or Iraq and Afghanistan. We started really analyzing what is this religion , what does it mean? And I think one of the issues was that or the other issue is that journalists really didn't push back enough on Bush's war on terror , which was a policy decision. You know , he started he launched this war on terror. And a lot of journalists , reputable journalists , went along with that without really pushing back on what it meant and what the parameters of , of success would be to this war. Absolutely.
S1: Absolutely. And it was , um , overwhelmingly popular , at least in the , you know , those early years , right? I mean , what about today? I mean , how do you see the , you know , the media has it improved? You know what what how do you reflect on it back now? Yeah.
S11: Yeah. I mean , I think it's improved remarkably. I do think that there is a lot more appetite for pushing back and challenging government , government policies , government rhetoric , government narrative. But when it comes to covering Islamophobia , I still feel like there is a lot to be done. One is that we still don't have a good definition or understanding with what we mean by terrorism. You know , everything can be called a terrorist. And unfortunately , we see a lot of people in the Republican Party and right wing folks doing that to a lot of Democrats and anti-choice activists even. Um , but the other problem is , is that when there is anti-Muslim rhetoric peddled by policymakers. It's really pushed back upon from their colleagues or media. And even going back to the example of Zoran Mamdani , I noticed that a lot of journalists were asking him how he felt about whether he should attend the memorial service or not. Rather than asking the critics why the mayor of New York City should not attend the memorial service , and I think we need to flip the calculus a bit and really be pushing back and challenging this anti-Muslim rhetoric.
S1: I mean , it does strike me , you know , 25 years ago you were living in California , but now you're in New York. You've mentioned New York City. Mayor Mamdani is the first Muslim mayor of New York City. Um , I'm just wondering what's coming up for you this year on nine over 11 , actually being in New York.
S11: Yeah , I really appreciate that question , because I really have struggled with feeling like I don't know how to grieve today , because so much of my memory of that day and what has come after , has been shaped by the fear of being attacked by neighbours , by colleagues or by the government. And I can't help but think of not just the tragedy of today , but the tragedy of the days after when so many people did die in the days and weeks after nine over 11. And so I think , you know , I can't help but reflect that this was such a heavy day for so many people. And I , I feel so , um , I still struggle with how to remember and grieve today.
S1: Well , I just want to say thanks for , you know , taking time today for actually speaking with us and sharing some of those , those thoughts with us. I've been speaking with Rosina Ali. She's an investigative journalist and author of the book Seasons of Fury for families and the Rise of Islamophobia in America. And we'll have a link to that on our website , KPBS. Rosina , thank you so much for being here today.
S11: Thank you so much for having me.
S1: That'll do it for this week's roundtable. Thanks so much for listening. And to all of my guests who join me today. If you have any thoughts on today's show , you can always email us at roundtable at KPBS or leave us a message at (619) 452-0228. Roundtables technical producer is Brandon Truffaut. The show was produced by Ashley Rush. Brooke Ruth's roundtable senior producer. I'm your host , Andrew Bracken. Thanks again for listening.
