S1: They say that a long time ago , in an underground realm where there are no lies or pain. There lived the princess who dreamt of the human world. Ofeibea.
S2: I have a confession to make.
S3: Oh , my God , please don't cancel me. Are you ready , Ellen? Yeah , okay. I have never seen Pan's Labyrinth. Ah.
S4: Ah. What? That's like your movie. It's like everything you love in one movie.
S3: No , I know , but don't get me wrong , I do love Guillermo del Toro. I love The Shape of Water. It's one of my favorite movies. I love Hellboy , I love cream some.
S4: Yeah , yeah , yeah. But this , this is like the one , like the main Guillermo sort of film.
S5: No , I've never watched Pan's Labyrinth.
S4: I'm sorry. You gotta please exit the studio. No.
S5: No. Forgive me.
S4: Don't open the door. The door's right there. You got to go in right now. Why are you recording this? Fine.
S3: Fine. I'm gonna. Leave.
S4: Leave. No , no , no. Stay. I'll tell you a little bit about it. I actually need to rewatch it. It's been a few years. Pens is one of my favorite movies. I remember when I saw it , I was just. I don't ever like horror movies. And I know that this isn't really a horror movie , even though some people describe Guillermo del Toro as a horror director. But it's it's a very surreal , magical , hopeful take on the Spanish Civil War and kind of all the forces that play through through the story of this little girl. That's really all I'll say. But but the production design , the creatures , I feel like it's to my taste when not even just mine. I think a lot of people are way more in tune with film. Would say. It's like when Guillermo del Toro really arrived as a as a as a his style , his presence in the film world is just a masterpiece.
S3: Well , actually , in July , technical producer Adrian and I went to San Diego Comic-Con for a panel celebrating the 20th anniversary of Pan's Labyrinth.
S4: Yeah , but you were probably the only person in the room who hadn't seen the movie.
S3: But nobody.
S4: Knows that they would have kicked you out.
S3: But nobody knew. Okay. Stop it.
S6: Uh , ladies and gentlemen , uh , Guillermo , I'm just going to do the introduction. Uh , Guillermo Navarro , uh , Ivana Picasso , Doug Jones , and Guillermo del Toro. So one of the things that I'm really excited about with the 20th anniversary is seeing the film in 3D , and the reason I'm want to see it in 3D is because I know you personally did the conversion yourself with your own hands. No , I like completely you. And so no. Can you talk about what you did to make sure that you know that people want to see this in 3D?
S1: So I said , let's let's see. I think we can make it so that it's , uh , expressively powerful. So the real world is a little flatter and the fantasy world has a huge depth , you know? So thematically it will add to the movie. I was honestly and not expecting how it was going to affect me seeing it. It's incredible.
S3: The 3D conversion was done by hand , and Guillermo del Toro was determined to keep it that way.
S1: Scenes were banned , obviously. I said , absolutely no goddamn AI , I said , I said , I said I wanted , Don , I want , I want I it's much more expensive. I don't care , you know , because well , listen , it's the thing is , what we're protecting is the , the , the the beauty and the redeeming power of art. And we it's not about who gets the job. It's about we are protecting a lineage of art.
S3: Watching fans react to the film's return to theaters. I started wondering what I'd been missing. So after Comic-Con , I finally watched Pan's Labyrinth for the first time.
S4: Oh yeah. And what did you think?
S3: You're going to have to wait until.
S2: The end of the episode.
S4: Know what? Tell me now.
S3: I will , I will. But first , let's meet someone who's first viewing of Pan's Labyrinth happened when she was just eight years old. And who says the film helped inspire her to become a filmmaker. You might remember Erika Daniela Garcia from our episode Cross-border Comic-Con , where she shared what makes San Diego Comic-Con such a special tradition for fans from Tijuana.
S4: Her relationship with Pan's Labyrinth began long before she started making films herself. We'll also hear from Beth Accomando , KPBS arts and culture reporter and host of the Cinema Junkie Podcast. She interviewed Guillermo del Toro in Fall 2006 , shortly after the film's US release.
S3: So what makes a movie stay with us for 20 years? And how can a story about a little girl and the world of monsters inspire someone to create their own stories?
S7: I felt like there were ideas that he was dealing with that really resonate , and sadly , a lot of these things keep happening.
S8: I do believe that that experience is one of the reasons that I also decided to study film. Mhm.
S4: From KPBS. This is Port of Entry.
S3: Where we tell cross-border stories that connect us.
S4: I'm Alan Lilienthal.
S3: And I'm Natalie Gonzalez. You're listening to Port of Entry.
S4: We went back to Daniella to talk about what it was like to watch Pan's Labyrinth as a kid.
S8: There's this monster and there's fantasy , and they're speaking in weird accents , but it feels so amazing and like , um , I don't know if feel like a , like a weird dream , you know , like , if I put myself in the mind of the girl that saw that movie for the first time , I think it felt more like being in a dream while being awake.
S4: And that first viewing happened at home with her mom.
S8: I remember going into her bedroom , and she was. She always used to watch movies , like laying on her bed , and this was around the time that she bought her first laptop , so she used to watch movies on her laptop.
S3: Danielle's mom had downloaded the movie online , but what she remembers most isn't how they found the film. It's what happened after they started watching it together.
S8: So we were at winter break and I came into her room and I laid next to her and we just like , started watching a movie. Like , she just randomly picked. I didn't know anything about Guillermo del Toro. And also it also brings me back to a lot to the fact that it was one of the things that I think that brought me closer to my mom , because after that , we used to watch a lot of movies together during that winter break , and I think that's a thing we do even now.
S4: Daniela didn't know it at the time , but that movie night would become part of her origin story.
S8: But I do know now that that was probably one of the moments that , aside from the fact that drew me closer to her and brought me closer to cinema , I do believe that that experience is one of the reasons that I also decided to study film.
S4: 20 years later , the film is back in theaters.
S3: I finally saw Pan's Labyrinth on the big screen. But before I tell you what , I thought we wanted to revisit the film with someone who has been thinking about it for two decades.
S4: Beth Accomando reviews films for KPBS and is the founder of Film Geeks SD. We'll hear excerpts from her conversation with Guillermo del Toro , alongside her reflections on what makes him such a distinctive storyteller and why Pan's Labyrinth still resonates today.
S3: How are you , Beth?
S7: I'm good.
S3: We're here today to talk about the 20th anniversary of Pan's Labyrinth from Guillermo del Toro , our uncle Guillermo del Toro. You actually interviewed him 20 years ago.
S7: Oh , yeah. Multiple times , actually. I've interviewed. Oh , really? Yeah. I got to interview him early. You know , early on in his career , before he became , you know , a little more unattainable. But he used to come to Comic-Con a lot. And back in the old days in Comic-Con , like , you know , the early two , 202,000 people were much more accessible. There weren't places for celebrities to hide as much. I mean , one of my favorite experiences with Guillermo del Toro , and one of the reasons I love him so much , is that after his panel , I can't remember if it was the panel for Hellboy or another film , but he came out in the hallway. He was immediately surrounded by all these young filmmakers , a lot of them Mexican , and they were all handing him DVDs and asking him questions. And I got to interview him briefly in the hallway because that's how things were done back in. At Comic-Con in the early days. And he was about to walk away , and he turned to his assistant and he goes , where are my treasures? And he was talking about all the DVDs that the young filmmakers had handed him. Oh , wow. And I just thought , like , I have been at Comic-Con when other filmmakers were handed DVDs , and as soon as the people turn around and leave , they tossed them in the garbage can. You know , like there are some people who really don't care. And he absolutely cared. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. The fact that he called him treasures because that alone says a lot about it.
S7: Just like. And I've , I and one of my interviews , I did ask him about that. I said , you know , I saw you take these DVDs and call them your treasures. And he says , oh , yes. He says , it may take me a long time. It may take me years , but I will watch all of these and I will , you know , try to communicate with the filmmakers.
S3: That's probably the main reason why in Mexico we call him audio , our uncle , because he's he's well known. Obviously , he's a great director and a writer and everything , but he's he's also well known for being just a sweetheart , like , just such a nice guy to everyone. And he listens to all the youth and he gives advices to everyone out there , and he's just a wonderful human being. But , um , correct me if I'm wrong. Pan's labyrinth was released on October and you interviewed him before the movie premiere.
S7: So if I remember right , I interviewed him right after the election. I mean , I think when the film came to San Diego might have been a different time than when it was released nationally. I was talking to him about , you know , what had inspired him. And part of it was the upcoming elections. And by the time I interviewed him , the elections had happened. So it must have been like early November.
S9: I think that the movie is about two things that are incredibly important now , and they were incredibly important then , and those are choice and disobedience. I think that we have just when we have just gone through an election in this country that shows the importance of those two , especially when you have a structure behind power that was telling us to simply obey and conform and support and and not question , you know.
S4: Did you have any sense the first time you watched that movie? The kind of long lasting cult status impact it would have?
S7: Um , you know , it's always hard to predict those kind of things , but I think there are certain universal themes that when you see them in a film , you may not know. Oh , is this the film that's really going to last and have an impact? But I felt like there were ideas that he was dealing with that really resonate. And sadly , a lot of these things keep happening. So it was set during the the Spanish Civil War. And there were there scenes in there of torture and oppression and misuse of power and authoritarian government. I mean , all these things which you keep thinking , we've gone through this many times before. We should learn , we should avoid these things. And they don't. I did feel like no matter when you return to this film , I felt like it was going to have something to say.
S3: I mean , you're already talking about that , but how do you think the movie still resonates with the current political climate right now?
S7: When I interviewed him , he narrowed down the theme. He said , basically , this is a film about choice and disobedience. And so he said , choice is always going to define who you are. And he said , if you allow your choices to be made by your religion or by your political leader or by someone else , then you're sort of like relinquishing your free will and you're giving over this , your ability to choose to something else. And he said , if you choose to disobey those things , the church , the government , um , you know , whatever it is , then you're making a choice to stand by what you personally believe and that that is really important. So I think that is something that is always true.
S9: I think disobedience is the threshold of responsibility , you know. And I think that you have to go by your instinct. And the movie tries to show through a parable that choice and disobedience go hand in hand , which is , do I obey blindly or do I stand by my choices? And you see it on each of the characters , adult or child , and each of them has a choice , but takes it or not.
S4: Did it make you more disobedient?
S7: Well , I've always been a little disobedient , so I think I have my my dad to thank for that. But yeah , um , I mean , forever. I've always had the thing , you know , you always should question authority. I feel like questioning authority also keeps you young. So I've always been a big fan of anarchy and disobedience.
S4: And I think just that , that human impulse to To be free and establish some kind of equality will always be there. And I think obviously this movie very much captures that. And I just thought it was a magical , magical movie.
S7: Well , I love how he couches it , you know , inside this sort of fairy tale. And so you get you sort of get to films because the underworld part is this sort of magical fairy tale land with creatures that.
S10: Show sports.
S7: But the World Above is really brutal and harsh and grounded in the stuff. I mean , I , I see a lot of horror films and I , I can take quite a bit in terms of , you know , films that are violent or gory or whatever. But the thing about this film is you care so deeply about the characters and about what they're doing and about those choices they're making , that the violence in this film is really deeply affecting and traumatizing in some ways.
S4: The contrast of the two is is so much more pronounced. Yeah.
S7: Yeah. And I think , you know , and I think also it's sort of like fools you in a little way , like you get pulled into the beauty of certain elements of it and into this sort of fairy tale parable sort of angle. And I think by the end of the film , you're surprised at how deeply affected you are and how much it resonates in the real world.
S3: But is it really horror like Pan's Labyrinth? Is it? I just cannot see it like.
S7: I mean , it depends how you define horror. I mean , right. It's horrific. I mean , whenever you deal with torture and like abuse like that , it's like , that's horrific to me. But a film where you deeply care for the characters and then do horrible things to them. And that's why the horror.
S4: Is that true horror? That's true horror. Yeah.
S7: Yeah. But to me , real horror has to be where you actually care what happens. And in that respect , I think Pan's Labyrinth is absolutely horror and it's real world horror.
S4: You're listening to Port of Entry.
S3: I mean , for me , it's ridiculous because I grew up and this is something that Guillermo del Toro talks a lot about during interviews. I grew up in a very Catholic family , and I grew up thinking that. I grew up thinking that horror movies were just , we're just going to traumatize me because people around me made me believe that , like , don't watch horror movies , you're going to open a door to horrible places , blah , blah , blah. But then the devil. Yes , of course. But then you have Guillermo del Toro's movies like so , so full of humanity and inhumanity and pain , but also beautiful emotions and hope. How do you think? Because you're saying that you love horror movies , but how is he different from the genre? Like how how can he mix loving hope and hope for a better future with him in humanity?
S7: Well , I do think that Catholicism has a lot to do with it. I mean , think about. So I was raised by a Catholic mother and an agnostic father , but my father loved the Bible because he thought it was a beautiful book , so he read it to me. There are some really horrific things in the Old Testament you want to talk about horror , like it starts there. And if you look at Catholic churches , not so much in the United States where everything's a bit sanitized. But like if you go to Italy or you go to Mexico. If you look what's in Catholic churches , the crucifixion is usually pretty brutal. Like it's bloody bloody because it's about the pain. It's about the pain and suffering that leads to , you know , this , like transcendence. But I think some of those things impact like how you think of the world and how you think of horror. And also in Catholicism there is a sense of , you know , humanity too. I mean , it is about caring for each other. So I do think that there is a piece of Guillermo del Toro's personality , and there's quite a few Catholic horror directors and some of , I think almost all of our best horror directors probably have some sort of Catholicism lurking somewhere in their background. But , I mean , I think that does impact him. And he you know , I've talked to him about horror and he says that , yes , you know , he feels that having been raised in Mexico does color kind of how you do horror and how you look at it. And he has mentioned that he has personally seen horrific things in real life. His father was kidnapped. He said he's seen , you know , violence in the streets and things that were firsthand kind of experiences with violence where he says , you know , that impacts how you show it. You can't be quite as light and , you know , flippant about showing violence when you've seen it up close. So I think if you feel a personal investment in what you're depicting , you're going to care more about the people that it involves. And then I think that transfers to the audience. You know , part of del Toro's makeup is that he's interested in those stories. He's not just interested in , like , I want to make a horror film that's going to make money , or I want to make a horror film where , I mean , I don't think he actually approaches his films as horror. I don't think he goes , like , I'm gonna make a horror film in the horror genre to scare people. I think he pursues stories that he loves , and then they happen to be stories that have horrific elements to them.
S4: I think that's maybe why I love his films , because I'm not a horror film , was not even a little bit not even like I really just horror for the sake of horror. It just feels not only I just like , I don't like how it makes me feel like I just it doesn't do anything for me. But his films , like you said , he like he uses horror as a tool to get you to care even more about these characters and to kind of make the contrast with the hope and the light at the end of the tunnel even more , kind of just more affecting. So I think I never thought about it that way , but yeah , I'd never considered his films horror , even though there are. I am horrified a lot of the times in his movies , but it is because it's a tool rather than like a means to an end rather than the end itself. Or like some horror films are just like , I'm just. I just want to scare you. Yeah , and that's not the point of this. It's like , yeah , it's I'm going to scare you so that you really care about these people and like you , so that the hope means even more to you.
S3: He makes you. He makes you question. I mean , if you grow up very Catholic or like super religious in general , he makes you question , what are you really scared of? Are you really scared of monsters and these creatures , or are you scared of real people that are real monsters in real life? I think that's and he talks a lot about that. And I think he talked to you about that , that you , the real monsters in his movies are the humans people. That's not really the monsters that he.
S7: Especially in Pan's Labyrinth. Um , you know , the fascist captain , uh , is definitely the scariest , most evil , most monstrous thing in the film. The creatures that the young girl finds in the underworld are not. There's so many layers to what he's doing , and he's so playful with it , and also effective in that because even if you don't recognize like , oh , he's making the fastest captain , kind of like the big bad wolf , the deep in your subconscious. I feel like those things are clicking in some way , like you're either remembering some book you saw as a child or , you know , some primordial sort of thing you're thinking about. But I think he plays with those things in interesting ways. Pan's labyrinth is just an amazing film. I think it's one of his kind of deepest and richest films , and I think it was coming at a point where he had just come off of a couple of Hollywood movies , and I felt like he really wanted to make something where an executive or an accountant wasn't going to be looking over his shoulder and saying , oh , we can't afford that , or , oh , you know , the audience response is going to be bad to this , or people are going to leave feeling kind of bad or anything like that. I think he wanted to make something that was deeply personal for him. And I think because of. That I feel like it's one of his richest and like most textured films.
S3: When you were writing your article about the 20th anniversary anniversary of Pan's Labyrinth , when you were listening to the old interviews , did you find something that you were like , oh , you know what? I didn't realize this back then. Something that stood out to you now.
S7: Um , I mean , I think the thing that I found that was most joyful in it was that I had started the interview asking him to recount a story about why he loved monsters. And it just reminded me of kind of the core of what drives a lot of his films , which is this sense that the thing that scares most people is the thing that I might feel compassion and sympathy for , and that that will give my films a slightly different spin. But on the other hand , he's also saying , when I'm dealing with that fascist captain , I don't have to cut him any slack by saying , oh , maybe he was abused as a child , and this is why he's like this. He is a man who has made his choices.
S9: I sort of think that it's clear in Pan's Labyrinth that to me , the biggest monster is the fascist , the fascist captain. There's not such a thing as a guy that does something terrible and doesn't have a back story to make sense of it himself , emotionally , but I do believe that that doesn't mean I have to artificially nuance into into everybody being good and bad at the same time. I do believe that there are people that do evil things , and that's what they do , you know? And I think this is a character that is like , then it's a sociopath.
S7: So , you know , I think he has very strong feelings and beliefs about things. And I think the fact that he can sympathize with the things we see as other or the monster doesn't mean he has to sympathize with the things that he perceives as the monsters in our world.
S3: That was pretty cool and beautiful. Um , thank you , Beth , for giving us a little bit of your time. I know you're very busy , and thank you for sharing this with us , and I hope there's always a lot of horror in your life. In a good sense , in the good sense , and.
S4: In the form of. Art.
S3: Art. In the form of art.
S7: Well , thank you for allowing me to talk about one of my favorite directors.
S3: Beyond his films , Guillermo del Toro has also shared advice for young artists just starting out. In his masterclass From Geometry to the Shape of Water , he offered a message that has stuck with Daniela.
S1: Del Tiempo.
S11: Pero a madres cava a madres en la edad exacta de la designation de sa nunca nunca me mas viejo mas acaba 70 tanto.
S4: You have so much damn time. You are at the exact age when everything feels hopeless. I've never felt older , more washed up than I did in my 20s. I used to say it's all over. My life has already passed me by. I'm here to tell you. Nope. You have so much damn time.
S11: No , no , it ain't Cinco de tiempo.
S4: Daniela first heard that message a decade ago when she was just starting film school.
S8: I thought to myself , like , what have I actually done in this in this ten years? But I think I've done a lot. I mean , I did I mean , I graduated from film school. I worked on a couple of short films. I've I've traveled , I went to Japan and those like personal things and also like professional things regarding film. But the most important part is that in these ten years , I also did my first feature film. You know.
S4: We asked Daniela what she takes from Guillermo del Toro's advice to young filmmakers.
S8: I do think that when German Toro is in his interviews or he really speaks for that , like , don't be like myself , make your own stories. And I think that's very valuable because we need different stories , we need different worlds , world buildings , we need different backgrounds and everything. Everyone has different things to say.
S3: And the anniversary of Pan's Labyrinth gave Daniela a chance to revisit the film with the person she first watched it with her mom , this time inside a movie theater.
S8: The film that I never thought I was actually gonna watch for the first time on a big screen came true.
S4: So what I want to know , was Pan's Labyrinth worth the wait?
S3: I'm actually glad I waited. I don't think I would have appreciated in quite the same way if I had seen it as a child. I think the movie found me when I was ready for it. You know.
S4: For sure. No.
S3: No. But seriously , when the pale man placed his eyes in his hands , I got a goosebumps , dude. I felt disgust , curiosity and awe all at once.
S5: But that's just what a great.
S3: Guillermo del Toro movie does to you. I guess. I kept thinking about Daniela watching this movie at just eight years old. It reminded me that a story doesn't have to mean the same thing to everyone to leave a lasting mark for Daniela.
S4: The beautiful monsters Guillermo created helped spark a dream that eventually led her to become a filmmaker for Beth. The film's legacy is also about the choices we make and whether we have the courage to disobey when our convictions demanded , and for you , not for me.
S3: It was a reminder of why I fell in love with storytelling , both as an actress and as a journalist. You know this perfectly , Alan. I still struggle with the feeling that I'm not good enough or that I should have accomplished more by now. But maybe what makes our work meaningful isn't how much we have achieved by a certain age. Maybe it's the passion we bring to the stories we fall in love with , and the way we choose to tell them.
S4: Maybe that's part of the legacy of Pan's Labyrinth.
S3: Not just the magical world it creates on screen , but all the worlds it inspires other people to create. And maybe ten years from now , we will look back and realize we have done a lot more than we thought.
S4: Because , as Guillermo himself reminds us , we have so much damn time. This episode of Port of Entry was written and produced by Natalie Gonzalez Rodriguez.
S3: Adrian Villalobos is technical producer and sound designer.
S4: Chris Nguyen is our editor. I'm Alan Lilienthal.
S3: And I'm Natalie Gonzalez.
S4: Nos vemos pronto.
S12: Amigos , this is technical producer Adrian Villalobos. We'd love to hear from you for our November episode. If you cross the border to celebrate Thanksgiving , whether you're heading to Mexico or crossing from Mexico into the US , send us a voice note telling us how you celebrate Thanksgiving in the border region. Don't forget to share your name and where you're from. Send your voice note to our new Linea Direct WhatsApp channel at (619) 871-3153. Nos vemos pronto.
